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4 years ago ::
Jun 26, 2009 - 9:28PM
#1761
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Date Joined:
May 26, 2005
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The two of you can continue to make excuses for him, but I won't buy it. He has said time and time again about fighters. "Core only. Core only. Core only. No magic items. No magic items. No magic items." Then when talking about spell casters, he suddenly includes all of non-core.
I haven't been following the argument between you and him all that closely, I made a guess based off of what I saw, maybe I was wrong, maybe I was right.
But they aren't. In a D&D game, caster dependance only applies if current living casters, whether PCs or NPCs are required to cast spells on them, and they aren't. Magic items that simply exist in the game due to creation in the past don't apply to that. Gold they find that is used to buy healing potions doesn't apply to that.
More that a caster had to make said items. It's a somewhat tortured point, yes, but the fact is that even indirectly the martial character needs casters somewhere to make gear, or for the gods to periodically open up the floodgates of (insert afterlife here) and drop dozens of items and such to be found throughout the world.
And I'm sure that you put them against these monsters one on one, instead of as a group as they will encounter these monsters in an ACTUAL GAME.
The stated goal was to see how they functioned and what could be learned. They druids, clerics, etc. could also only use natural class features, no using the leadership feat (save to gain a mount). The principle was "How does your class deal with it, how well do you do, HOW do you function" The whole idea was to see how they acted and reacted, I even said that they could lose every encounter, die every encounter, but still prove me wrong depending on how they dealt with the issue and what was stopping them.
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4 years ago ::
Jun 26, 2009 - 9:29PM
#1762
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Date Joined:
Sep 28, 2006
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I don't know why you can only use powers in combat, but as far as I can see, there are no core Wizard powers (or rituals) in 4ed that charm anyone.
One of the Dragon Magazines had a ritual that basically rewrote someones brain for you. It was however somewhat blatant, and not really useful for talking your way past the guards.
In 4th the Warlock seems to stolen the Wizards quick charm techs, and as is standard they're all bonuses to skills instead of Save or Wins.
Well... At least we got custom avatars....
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4 years ago ::
Jun 26, 2009 - 11:06PM
#1763
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Date Joined:
May 26, 2005
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Oh, I see. The 1st level Wizard with his 2 spells and 4 hit points, automatically out shined the 1st level Fighter and 1st level Rogue?
Or when you compare casters vs mundanes, do you automatically think of 20th level characters? Seems like an odd comparison, considering the amount of work the mundanes did to ensure the 4hp Wizard even made it to 2nd level (let alone 20th level)
*color spray* *scythe* Goodbye room of enemies
Yes, I had to rest after doing that a couple times, but, even if I didn't do as much (I had a decent chance to hit with my crossbow against most foes) I did a helluva lot MORE when I did act. And even then, I can afford scrolls at that level which give me more slots, and also grant me useful versatility.
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4 years ago ::
Jun 26, 2009 - 11:15PM
#1764
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Date Joined:
Oct 10, 2007
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More that a caster had to make said items. It's a somewhat tortured point, yes, but the fact is that even indirectly the martial character needs casters somewhere to make gear, or for the gods to periodically open up the floodgates of (insert afterlife here) and drop dozens of items and such to be found throughout the world.
Because people keep on talking about caster dependence.
I kill balors with no help from caster
Show
Level 20
Feats Weapon prof boomerang, weapon focus, specialization, mastery Greater weapon spec and greater weapon focus weapon supremacy 7
Psionic shot, wild talent, fell shot, psionic meditation 4
Boomerang daze, , PA brute throw power throw5
Ancestral relic, Item Familiar,
Stats max Strength, 13 wisdom, 13 dex
22+6+5strength orc, level and enhancement
Attack bonus
20+11+4+5
40 take 10 with supremacy
51
+5 metaline returning sure strike boomerang of collision and psychic, and aptitude that gives +6 to dex and strength. is intelligent and can use magic circle at will. Can also dimension door itself and its wielder. Its my Ancestral Relic and my Item Familiar
Power throw the boomerang for 20 use fell strike. Take 10 with weapon mastery.
31 touch attack dealing 47 damage.
Balors pitfiends, and great red wyms all have touch ACs that are below 31, by about 10 minimum.
If it hits them they have to make a Save DC 57 or be dazed for 1 round.
They can not make this save.
This is with items that the fighter enchanted himself, so no reliance on Casters were necessary.
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4 years ago ::
Jun 26, 2009 - 11:20PM
#1765
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Date Joined:
Oct 10, 2007
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*color spray* *scythe* Goodbye room of enemies
What happens if they don't stand all close and grouped together? Or happened to have been well disguised zombies?
Yes, I had to rest after doing that a couple times, but, even if I didn't do as much (I had a decent chance to hit with my crossbow against most foes) I did a helluva lot MORE when I did act. And even then, I can afford scrolls at that level which give me more slots, and also grant me useful versatility.
That only works when they are standing together, which is a bad tactic in D&D.
Aren't scrolls of level one spells DC 11?
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4 years ago ::
Jun 26, 2009 - 11:51PM
#1766
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Date Joined:
Oct 24, 2008
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*color spray* *scythe* Goodbye room of enemies
Yes, I had to rest after doing that a couple times, but, even if I didn't do as much (I had a decent chance to hit with my crossbow against most foes) I did a helluva lot MORE when I did act. And even then, I can afford scrolls at that level which give me more slots, and also grant me useful versatility.
Ah, you play 3ed, like I play 4th - use all your abilities in one big fight and then rest. I guess the more things change, the more they stay the same. 
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4 years ago ::
Jun 26, 2009 - 11:58PM
#1767
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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Ah, you play 3ed, like I play 4th - use all your abilities in one big fight and then rest. I guess the more things change, the more they stay the same.
Technically 4th has a rule written somewhere that once you take an extended rest you can't do so again for 12 hours I think, so not EXACTLY the same... went from having to wait 8 hours to 17 hours or so on average to recharge if you use all your abilities in the first enounter :P
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4 years ago ::
Jun 27, 2009 - 1:15AM
#1768
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Technically 4th has a rule written somewhere that once you take an extended rest you can't do so again for 12 hours I think, so not EXACTLY the same... went from having to wait 8 hours to 17 hours or so on average to recharge if you use all your abilities in the first enounter :P
That is correct. Page 263 f the PHB states 1 extended rest, than no other one for 12 hours, that means that you can't just extended rest after using up powers, unless you want your dungeon to repopulate while you are sleeping...
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4 years ago ::
Jun 27, 2009 - 4:25AM
#1769
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Date Joined:
May 26, 2005
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Because people keep on talking about caster dependence.
I kill balors with no help from caster
Show
Level 20
Feats Weapon prof boomerang, weapon focus, specialization, mastery Greater weapon spec and greater weapon focus weapon supremacy 7
Psionic shot, wild talent, fell shot, psionic meditation 4
Boomerang daze, , PA brute throw power throw5
Ancestral relic, Item Familiar,
Stats max Strength, 13 wisdom, 13 dex
22+6+5strength orc, level and enhancement
Attack bonus
20+11+4+5
40 take 10 with supremacy
51
+5 metaline returning sure strike boomerang of collision and psychic, and aptitude that gives +6 to dex and strength. is intelligent and can use magic circle at will. Can also dimension door itself and its wielder. Its my Ancestral Relic and my Item Familiar
Power throw the boomerang for 20 use fell strike. Take 10 with weapon mastery.
31 touch attack dealing 47 damage.
Balors pitfiends, and great red wyms all have touch ACs that are below 31, by about 10 minimum.
If it hits them they have to make a Save DC 57 or be dazed for 1 round.
They can not make this save.
This is with items that the fighter enchanted himself, so no reliance on Casters were necessary.
Ah, give the fighter psionic powers, make him a psion (this is non-core by some arguments, core by others depeiding on how one defines the SRD). Yes, it technically works but the fighter functionally depends quite a bit on the psionic mechanics to have a chance at victory, essentially making him into a semi-caster as psionics are a variant magic system.
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4 years ago ::
Jun 27, 2009 - 5:23AM
#1770
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Date Joined:
Apr 17, 2008
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Also, that is assuming of course that he gets the first round on the Balor. And assuming the Balor is stupid enough to allow BAB to occurr against him in the first place.
This is fundamentally how 3e works. Spells then damage. In order of power. Once again we have a "fighter" that isn't really a fighter, (because he's using abilities granted to him outside of his class) What this poster and others fail to realize of course is that it's still a baber. And babers that don't have disentigrate can do nothing against wall spells, and various effects. "But I can dimension door!" Yeah once maybe.
Of course that's assuming that your little BABer isn't spending the entire time Stunned, Dominated, both, and dealing with a potential of three more balors just through the stupid thing's SLA.
The Core fighter (meaning the phb) is a worthless entity even more powerless against a Balor than this Psychic Character that happens to have fighter levels which are only used for BAB.
Of course you are silly for assuming that your fighter will some how be 1,000 feet away (try more like 100 at most) because you forget of course the Balor can Greater Teleport, Summon all of which easily mitigate your 1000 feet away scenario. Your little BABer charming and powerful as you think he is, is worthless to stop a Balor that isn't being played by a moron that doesn't know how to do anything but make attack rolls.
Also, it has in it's power Dispel Magic Greater as an At Will SLA so your precious item is disabled in one round after it teleports. Also your Power attack for Damage only works within 30feet so to do any damage with your character (because you'll fail to bypass it's DR otherwise) is going to get you easily close enough. DD isn't something that you can do, and still attack either so it's either DD or attack. Should you not attack and use DD that round the Balor on the other hand can easily teleport to you and still cast something like Insanity, Dominate, or Stun (if your hp is low enough).
Then there's the 4d10 dretches, 1d4 hexrous, or 2nd Balor, a nalfeshnee, glaberzue, or maralith to deal with in addition to the Main Balor himself.
Of course if one Balor summons one, the other one can then summon another. So really, you aren't even necessarily going to even be fighting just one or two you could end up fighting as many as the Dm wants there to be.
The Balor isn't even the nastiest Caster Monster out there either. And you still can't shut it down, and yet it can shut you down at will because your bag of tricks which really aren't Fighter tricks, are still shut down and mitigated by the Balor's Magical Might. (and his magical might is rather limited compared to others such as Dragons, Solars and a slew of others)
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