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The following is a rant. Undoubtably people are going to disagree with me. That's fine. I'm just writing it out of the frustrating of having played this game and getting the feeling that something was missing.
However I'm not trying to say "4e sux." Far from it. In many ways, 4e got a lot right. However, there are a number of ways in which it just failed to live up to the promise I felt it had.
Keep in mind, these are my own personal desires, based on the preview material and the preconceptions I had from 3.5. Not everyone will agree. Maybe I'm seeing it wrong. But the game plays like something is missing.
This, for me, is what could have been.
Ability Scores Is it just me, or does every edition of D&D have even more stat creep than before? I think the big culprit here are powers which read things like "you may move a target a number of squares equal to your wisdom modifier" or even 3.5's "you may make a number of AoOs equal to your dex modifier."
The problem is that most of those powers are only useful if you've got a stat of at least 12, and in many cases more. There is an assumption that heroic characters have mostly positive modifiers, and maybe one negative modifier.
This assumption needs to die.
Would it really be that hard to rebalance the scores such that an 18 really meant something? Would it be so difficult to set up so that 3d6 down the line didn't result in characters that couldn't use half their powers due to non-existant secondary effects?
I actually got fooled into believing this would change. Some preview material for 4th edition showed a monster, and the level modifier was baked into the ability modifiers. Of course, no one knew that was the case, so the speculation was that positive bonuses started at 5 -- and a 10 would net you a +3.
This, for me, would have been a huge win. Now characters could have those important modifiers and still have scores in the normal range. Alas, it was not to be, and now I can't even make a character with two scores below ten without it being house ruled.
The next time an edition rolls around, how about putting the modifiers at +2 for 10, or whatever playtesting shows works. That way wearing heavy armour might hamper all sort of characters, not just the ones with superb dexterity.
Power Sources Here's a thought. What would happen if you removed power sources from any gameplay mechanic? As best I can tell, the answer is nothing. Sure, martial power rarely has conjurations, and divine power is almost always linked to a god, but there's nothing -unique- about a power source.
In 3e, at least, the difference between a supernatural ability and an extraordinary one was important. Arcane and divine magic was more or less transparent, but martial power and magic was different.
I kind of expected this in 4e.
Imagine what could have been. What if the definition of Arcane power had consequences? What if arcane power sources could be affected by an anti-magic field? What if the magic wrought by words of power and deep knowledge was fundamentally different than magic granted by the Gods -- one vulnerable to counterspells and fields, the other with codes of conduct?
What if martial power never granted daily powers, but tended to have at-will powers of more potency? What if martial healing was -different- from divine healing -- triggering healing surges and granting temporary HP, but never restoring battle damage above what a character could normally take?
In short, what if being the wizard meant something other than being a controller (which means nothing now that PHB2 has introduced a few more controllers.)
Classes This is almost the same as power sources -- everything seems the same.
In my mind, the fighter would have a slew of at-will powers, interchangeable based on his weapon. The encounter powers "that kind of trick would only work once" would be his flashy moves -- the kind saved for a finishing blow or a perfect opportunity. Tactical powers, usable only in certain situations like charging, flanking, or attacking a prone enemy would have been a natural fit.
Class features could have gone so far here. I mean, I really love the Fighter's class features. The ability to lock a target down? Great. There needs to be more of that. But, really, all those class features kick in at level one, and then there's almost no progression of features beyond that. That doesn't seem right. There should be more to a class than its power selection: class features seem interesting because they are special. Powers feel like an additional way to deal 3[w] damage once per day.
I really noticed this when I looked at the wizard. The spellbook class feature felt like a quick tack-on to give the wizard a little more versatility. In my mind, daily powers should have fallen under "class feature." Casting daily power is entirely boring when every class can do it. Warlock vs Wizard in 3.5 was a serious difference. Warlock vs Wizard in 4e is... not much of anything. A few hit points. A curse feature. Nevertheless, the fundamental mechanics don't support a real difference in feel. Everyone has the same power set. Everyone is special. And thus, no one is.
Multiclassing I've only GMed at the heroic level, but I've already noticed something. Multiclassing is sub-optimal. Swapping one power for another -- and spending a feat to do so -- has yet to attract a single player.
Even presuming one takes two classes which work together well -- say a barbarian and a fighter -- the tradeoff between one power and another is entirely meh. Spending feats to gain additional powers would be a useful choice -- spending a feat to swap a whole slew of powers would be interesting -- but the current choice doesn't work.
The dual classing preview stuff I've seen has fixed this problem somewhat, but honestly, multi-classing feels like such an afterthought.
Trip, Grapple, Sunder, Disarm When Wizards said they were going to try to fix the grapple rules, I was pleased. Unfortunately, much like multiclassing, I find that "fix" means remove.
From a game design perspective, removing Sunder and Disarm makes some degree of sense -- sundering someone's magic weapon just sucks, and disarming can be broken. However, removing the rules has not fixed my players, and inevitably someone asks "Well, can I just take the wand -away- from the necromancer?"
I don't know what the right solution to the sunder problem, but I'm fairly sure that setting the hardness and HP of items such that a +5 sword was harder to break than a mundane one -- combined with a ritual to easily repair sundered magical items -- would have fixed the problem much better than pretending it wasn't there.
Trip needs to be in the game. Considering getting up no longer provokes opportunity attacks, it could have been thrown into the game as a non-broken option. Instead, fighters get an occasional encounter power to knock a target prone. That's it?
Grapple, well, I like the grab rules, but grabbing someone in no way prevents them from attacking. Less is more, sure, but if I grab someone with a longsword and I'm using a dagger, shouldn't I be getting some kind of advantage? What if I want to prevent him from attacking? How do I pin?
The game is a game about imagination and creative ideas. Removing the rules about doing something doesn't mean my players won't still think about it.
Rituals Someone needs to make everyone at WOTC convert every ritual into a dollar figure and then say "Would you cast this if you could do it?" I mean, 10 gp is nothing for a high level character, but in the game mechanic world, it's the cost of a cow
So when I see a ritual marked "Fastidiousness" and it costs 10 gp -- and keeps my clothing clean for exactly one day -- I cannot justify the cost. If the enchantment was permanent i might consider it -- but per day? I'm looking at those ten gold coins and seeing $1000 of value. As a result, an otherwise interesting ritual to create the extremely expensive pants that never get dirty gets overlooked for the far more useful prestidigitation.
Weapons To some extent, weapons make a difference. For the most part though? No, they really don't. At first level, a fighter with a greatsword and a fighter with a great axe look more or less the same. This should not be!
Even basing powers on the option to cut, thrust, or crush would have meant something. Hammers are for knocking people back. Swords and axes are for cleaving. These kinds of choices would have made fighters interesting. They could have made -every- martial class interesting.
Sometimes the loss from 3e was just obvious. Longbows lack any kind of strength requirement -- meaning that the difference between a long bow and a short bow is minimal -- if you can use the longbow you take it and that's that. I would love it if having a high strength score actually mattered when you used longbows, but alas, this is not the case.
Also, the longbow range is weird. There really needs to be an extra rule for "longbow aimed accurately and in combat" and "longbow fired at maximum range to hit a house." Sooner or later, a player asks, and I am left having to make it up; something which happened a lot less in earlier editions.
Skills Trained. Not trained. No in-between.
This just makes me sigh. They got some parts right -- the 1/2 level bonus applying to skills helps. Still, the idea of being "partially trained" in skills would be nice.
The lack of background skills is depressing. Sure, in PHB2 it's somewhat fixed with backgrounds -- but this could have been done better. Letting a character gain some training in backgrounds, professions, and languages outside of the usual progression could have gone a long way. It would only take a moment for a player to say "now that I picked out endurance, athletics, and history as skills for my military warlord, which background skills do i want? Profession: Soldier seems obvious..."
What it Got Right Really, in the end, the problem with 4e is just a general impression that homogeneity is the name of the game. Classes don't feel special. Power sources don't feel special.
This hurts not because the game is bad, far from it. It hurts because the game is good in so many areas. The math is solid. Encounters balance well, the assumptions of how the game is played pan out nicely.
How to Fix? Some parts of 4e, I've been able to fix pretty easily. I've got house rules for tripping and sundering, and I've redefined the world such that the average person has a 14 in a stat -- 18 is exceptional for an average person, but hardly the upper limit for anyone.
Some parts just can't be fixed, not without redefining the entire game. The idea of playing fighters without daily powers seems crazy. The careful balance of the game makes it near impossible to hack apart without far reaching consequences.
So what, am I just applying old expectations to a new game?
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Date Joined:
Jan 20, 2006
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So what, am I just applying old expectations to a new game? Yes. In fact, some of your "old expectations" aren't even from previous editions, though it seems like you think they are. Enjoy your game.
Tales from the Rusty Dragon (http://rustydragon.blogspot.com) - A 4th Edition Conversion Project Covering Paizo's Rise of the Runelords Adventure Path
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Date Joined:
Feb 20, 2008
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You sound like yet another guy who favored or started with 3.x ed and don't like the changes (or should I say, corrections) made by 4e. It's not 3.75e, it's an entire new edition. It's more like 1st, or even 2nd ed, then 3rd ed. 3e D&D simply wasn't D&D in the classic sense. 4e is.
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Date Joined:
Nov 13, 2004
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Ho boy...
Well, before the hornets arrive to see what's disturbing their nest - have you played 4e much? Without playing, the classes do seem very similar.
Also, on ability scores - they haven't really changed much from 3e. The only difference is that demihumans don't get boned with racial penalties, and every race has the *potential* to get a '20.'
4e D&D is not a "Tabletop MMO." It is not Massively Multiplayer, and is usually not played Online. Come up with better descriptions of your complaints, cuz this one means jack ****.
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2004
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I agree with pretty much everything in the OP although in some cases I understand why the designers chose to go the direction they did.
Stats are all assumed to be high because they had to build the math around some assumed value and if they had built the math around lower values then min/maxers would overpower the system.
Power Sources don't matter because, in general, it sucks to be punished for choosing a certain power source.
Multiclassing is underwhelming because of how overwhelming it was in 3.5. I think in this case they went a little overboard in the nerfing.
All the at-will combat options have been removed in favor of integrating them into class powers. The problem I have with this is that it removes the tactical though that used to go into combat. Sure now you have to worry about other things but it's not as necessary as it was previously. In 3.5 if you were up against a beast with lots of attacking limbs what did you do? You grappled it. When you encountered a melee facebeater? You disarmed him. In 4e all problems are solved with hitting things or in some cases arranging the party to make us more accurate at hitting things.
I also miss being able to dabble in skills. I like the idea of having a little experience in a field but not being as good as someone else in the party. Trained/Not Trained doesn't cut it for me.
Before someone asks, yes I have and do actively play 4e. That doesn't mean I have to like it.
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Date Joined:
Jan 20, 2006
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I agree with pretty much everything in the OP.
Before someone asks, yes I have and do actively play 4e. That doesn't mean I have to like it. Enjoy your game.
Tales from the Rusty Dragon (http://rustydragon.blogspot.com) - A 4th Edition Conversion Project Covering Paizo's Rise of the Runelords Adventure Path
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Date Joined:
Apr 28, 2008
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I agree with pretty much everything in the OP.
Before someone asks, yes I have and do actively play 4e. That doesn't mean I have to like it. That's nice, but will the OP respond to the thread and should we bother picking at the gaping holes in his (and subsequently your) arguements?
Place bets now!
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Date Joined:
Sep 28, 2006
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Ability Scores I don't feel as strongly as you here, but I do agree that keeping the stat inflation (even though it was less then 3.5s) was a mistake. I feel a good chunk of the issues that exist with the system come from that stat bump.
Power Sources This I can't say I really care about. Well actually I do care about the removal of anti-magic fields and all that garbage. I'm very glad they did that. But the very limited flavor constraints to power sources (familiars are only arcane, only martial characters can mix two class diciplines at an Epic level) I can live with or without.
Classes I still don't understand how the number and type of powers is more important then what the powers actually do. And the way people seem to ignore class features.... Seriously cantrips have become more powerful then ever before and people never mention the things. And claiming that a Fighters mark isn't the defining feature of the class (and every fight the Fighter takes part in) shows a clear lack of understanding of the combat system.
Multiclassing The first multiclass feat is one of the best feats you can take. Everything past that is gravy. Me I'm enjoying my Clerics fighter multiclass very much thank you. But bad combos are far more obvious in the current system then they were in the old one. (See multiclassing with any full progression caster.) I consider this a feature.
Trip, Grapple, Sunder, Disarm Have you tried page 42? Sunder and Disarm and Pin are win conditions for most fights, so they wouldn't work until you hit someone to 0 HP. But trips should be easily available using the rules in system. They just shouldn't be endlessly spamable like the stupid spiked chain monkeys of yore.
Rituals Some rituals are too expensive. Most aren't.
Weapons Uh, have you seen char-op? They seem to think weapon types matter.
Skills Can't say I really have a need for some people to have a +3 instead of a plus 5 in a skill. Though the PHB II backgrounds were needed to fill a gap. I just don't see how this is a big deal.
So what, am I just applying old expectations to a new game? That's a good chunk of your problem. A lot of things that seem "wrong" to older players comes from spending years thinking up justifications for why the old stuff was right. Now that the base assumptions have changed you have to let your old rationalizations go and start making new ones.
Well... At least we got custom avatars....
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