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lofgren wrote:

I think we are talking about the same thing. You apparently encounter traps designed by morons who didn't anticipate that somebody might try to smash them. This is stupid. If I'm building a trap, no amount of raw force applied in such a brutish fashion is going to get through it, rule books be damned. If for some reason I am denied the resources to stop somebody from simply hitting the trap to disable it, then the solution might be to rig the trap to ruin the burglar's day in some other way, like destroying whatever it is they are trying to get to on the other side of the trap.

In the very real, non-magical world we live in there is ample precedence for this. Tinkers and trapsmiths in a magical world would be even more capable of building devices you can't simply whack with a hammer.

Although I will grant that sometimes the best solution is to trap an enemy with you and force him to disarm the trap before it kills him as well.



Poison gas? No problem? We really are playing two different games.

Yeah, I seem to be playing a different game than a lot of people who post here. In most of my experiences, I don't feel very threated as a PC by the non-PC elements of the game world. As I've said elsewhere, I suppose I can only chalk that up to a difference in experience. Though I'd like to think that after playing as much 4E as I have that I would have had at least one different experience. I can be wrong though.


The trap issue isn't the only thing you can use skill challenges for. Like I said, it's simply the easiest example to cite. In my experience, it can be awkward to do some of the things with a skill challenge that I'd like to do in conjuction with an encounter.

At this point I'll just bow out of the conversation though because I obviously seem to be in a minority here when it comes to this opinion. If the system works for you, I'm happy that it does. I like skill challenges; I'm just not 100% satisfied with how they are integrated into the game yet; that's really all I was trying to say.

lofgren wrote:

And the point I was trying to make is that this sounds like your DM's problem. If your DM really can't devise a trap (or any other application of skill challenges) that is well integrated with the encounter, then it's certainly going to stand out. If your DM is designing traps that can just as easily be punched through as disabled, I think he is designing poor traps. We've certainly had experiences where we become irritated that we're doing this little minigame with a nonsensical connection to the rest of the story, but on the other hand there are plenty of times when skill use was quite obviously the best way to get through. It just depends on how well the DM designed that particular encounter, sometimes even coming down to a simple framing issue.

I suggest you give this feedback to your DM so that he can work on coming up with situations where whacking something is not so ideal. It's definitely not impossible.

no, not impossible...

It's been the same way with multiple DMs though. I think more of the problem comes from the disparity between PC numbers and non-PCs numbers, but that's something I've expressed elsewhere, so I'd rather not continue to beat a dead horse. Suffice to say I think there's a better way to overlap the two systems than what is currently being done. It's not bad; it's a good idea; I just think it could be better.

lofgren wrote:

I get that you want to move on, so if you don't answer I'll understand, but I have to ask.

The question kind of interests me, so I'm going to toss my two cents in.

Why are your DMs designing skill challenges for NPCs?  Do they design combat around NPC power levels as well?  The vast majority of NPCs are basically minions – they lack the training, the will, and the desire to fight beyond one good blow.  Your enemies shouldn't be concerning themselves with NPCs (if they are somehow aware of the difference… hmm, enemies with no fourth wall… interesting…, because NPCs pose no threat.  If the NPC did pose a threat, he'd be a PC.  PCs are the guys you watch out for.

Just speaking for myself, I don't make a differentiation in my head between PC and NPC for the most part.  I tend to view it as a world where things happen around the PCs, that there are other adventuring bands out there doing things, and do my best to keep that in mind when designing enemies and major villains.  The PCs are the current threat, and a serious one to be sure, but not the first one these guys have dealt with.  Having said that, I prefer manipulation and intrigue to combat approaches, and run my villains accordingly.  Some of my favorites are the sorts who the PCs are capable of just slaughtering like a crippled bunny, but who they can't just kill without serious legal problems (obviously we run a lot of city campaigns), so it becomes almost an investigative story at times, working to uncover clues and find people willing to talk to them while keeping a low enough profile to avoid being framed and taken out of the picture anyway.  They're hard to run, those stories, but very rewarding I find when done successfully.

Lex Luthor never comes up with elaborate schemes that cost billions of dollars so that he can kill Jimmy Olson.  The Joker never wastes his energy worrying about what Commissioner Gordon might do.

That approach only works for a fairly narrow range of stories though.  For a superhero sort of approach, sure... not so good for other sorts of stories though.  I find that having a villain ruin a NPCs life that the PCs care about is usually pretty effective for providing them with motivation without necessarily tipping their hand that they're even after the villain if the approach things carefully.

If you're having encounters designed to be threatening to NPCs, send an NPC to resolve them.  You're a big damn hero.  You should have better things to do.

Depends on the sort of hero you're playing... you could run a Magnificent Seven sort of story where the primary threats are to the NPCs, and the PCs are the ones who put themselves into harm's way to keep them safe.  If they walked away, it would be all good for them, but if they do, they aren't really very heroic... that's always a fun one to pull for a nice change of pace.

Stigger wrote:

That approach only works for a fairly narrow range of stories though. For a superhero sort of approach, sure... not so good for other sorts of stories though. I find that having a villain ruin a NPCs life that the PCs care about is usually pretty effective for providing them with motivation without necessarily tipping their hand that they're even after the villain if the approach things carefully.

That the two characters I mentioned are superheroes has nothing to do with anything. The story told is designed to challenge them because they are the main character. That is the distinction between PC and NPC, and that is the distinction between full-fledged monster and minion. The mechanics are there to reflect the differences between the characters. If a villain threatens the hero's loved one, it doesn't make the loved one into the hero. The mechanics are designed to reflect the character's role in the story.

And the suggestion that a supervillain has never gone after a super heroes loved one is kind of preposterous. Alternatively, suggesting that a super hero story becomes something besides a super hero story when Lex Luthor kidnaps Lois Lane is just weird.

When the hero discovers he is facing the main villain is totally irrelevant. Did you even read the rest of the conversation?

Depends on the sort of hero you're playing... you could run a Magnificent Seven sort of story where the primary threats are to the NPCs, and the PCs are the ones who put themselves into harm's way to keep them safe. If they walked away, it would be all good for them, but if they do, they aren't really very heroic... that's always a fun one to pull for a nice change of pace.

Which has nothing to do with anything at all. If the NPCs could have handled the threat themselves, the Magnificent Seven wouldn't really be necessary, would they? Instead the story would be about the mediocre seven – who would nevertheless be called the magnificent seven, because they would be the stars.

What you're describing is simply a particular type of challenge set before the PCs: save the one you love, protect the villagers, solve the mystery, whatever. No matter what, the challenge should be designed to challenge the PCs. That's the whole point of the game. That's the whole point of the Magnificent Seven, Sherlock Holmes, Superman, Time Cop. Even Death of a Salesman isn't primarily about the peripheral characters. That's what makes them peripheral, and that's what makes NPCs NPCs.

Stigger wrote:

Yeah, its their story, but I tend to approach it from the idea that they just happend to be the ones who had to deal with the situation, not that there's something inherently special about them "just because they're PC's", which never sat well with me. I just tend to look at it as the NPCs have their own spotlight on themselves from their perspective, even if we as the audience don't really see it or pay attention to it, and try to look at them from that perspective. They have their own views and agendas that are wholly seperate from the PCs, and not necessarily coinciding.

Of course the NPCs have their own agenda. What does that have to do with anything? I'm talking about the story from the point of view of the players and DM, which is like talking about a play from the point of view of the director and actors. I'm not talking about the story from the perspective of the characters. I should think that was fairly obvious.

How about this: pick out a story for me, any story at all, that is not about the main characters. For bonus points, find a story that is about characters who are not in any way challenged by their situation.

As to my Magnificent Seven mention, that did kind of wander off point a bit... but still, I'd look at it as any adventuring band could have done the job to one degree or another, it was just the PCs who got tapped for it. Another one of my favorite tricks is to occassionally bring up the exploits of other bands in the taverns, and having drunk patrons comparing the merits of various groups in front of the PCs... with the odd veiled insult tossed their way to help them remember that not everyone thinks the world of them. Odd as it may sound, a lot of them really enjoy that part, sometimes getting in on trashing themselves with a bit of a nod and a wink. Oops, wandered off again... I should probably get some sleep before I go off a cliff or something.

So? Yeah, get some sleep. You're rambling about nonsense. Nobody is saying that everybody has to love the PCs. I honestly have no clue what you are talking about.