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4 years ago ::
May 07, 2009 - 1:12PM
#31
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For anyone talking about how helpful Profession, Craft or Perform skills were, can you please tell me the DC for a successful concert performance? Or the craft DC for a chocolate cake?
You can't. Because those skills didn't actually have any rules beside ridiculous craft time rules and combat oriented craft DCs.
Ugh, what does the DC being provided have to do with it? If a DM was to decide that something like that was important in a session, he would decide on a rational DC (with guidance from the books), and ask the players to roll.
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4 years ago ::
May 07, 2009 - 2:33PM
#32
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Date Joined:
Jan 16, 2003
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Do those skills having bad mechanics in other editions mean we don't fix them, merely write them off? Or, call them fluff and remove them from our play experience?
Yes, the last one.
Ugh, what does the DC being provided have to do with it?
Because there actually are no rules for the vast majority of these skills. There are. NO. RULES. For Perform. It's just a number you have that means nothing in the game unless you're a bard -- and then it's a prerequisite only.
Crafting too has no actually usable rules except for a handful of items. You have the price equals time thing, which is hilarious, true, but without the DCs, you don't actually know what's a fair DC for 'yummy chocolate cake' or how *this* chocolate cake can be better than *this* one.
The rules simply didn't do what people defending them pretend they do.
If a DM was to decide that something like that was important in a session, he would decide on a rational DC (with guidance from the books), and ask the players to roll.
If only we had this exact same system... except with a chart, perhaps on a page in the DMG... that suggested reasonable DCs do the DM didn't have to pick at random... instead of, you know... absolutely NO guidance from the books.*
Hmm... well, a man can dream, I guess. Dream and rail against things he apparently has actively avoided learning anything about. In favor of things he similarly doesn't actually know how they work.
*May not apply to books that are wholly imaginary, such as the book where all these 'helpful' examples people apparently used appeared.
Sig to be rebuilt soonThe Descendants-- the webserial that reads like a comic book! World of Ere-- A campaign setting that puts style to the fore.
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4 years ago ::
May 07, 2009 - 2:42PM
#33
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Date Joined:
Feb 28, 2009
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Page 42 does not cover blacksmithing and that ilk. No amount of hand waving is going to make it so. You can force it to but all that means is everyone's experience of it will vary. I do think you have a point that secondary skills didn't work well and the mechanics were dorked in previous editions. I just think that means we need a better system that works. So that when I sit down in Jim's campaign with my Dwarven fighter with blacksmith I can generally expect the same experience as when I sit down with the same character in Sam's campaign.
Rules are a contract, between the player and the game. Without them it is just anything goes, hope it works out. Rules can be overused as in straitjacketing everything and that point is also well taken. However, if one asks the simple question of how one would resolve checks involving background professions, no clean, clear answer can come because everyone's opinion will vary and the rules don't provide any direct help.
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4 years ago ::
May 07, 2009 - 2:51PM
#34
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2008
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In the interest of curtailing the bickering back and forth, perhaps you could tell us more specifically what situations you'd like rules for? Then we can try to come up with some rules to cover those circumstances.
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4 years ago ::
May 07, 2009 - 2:57PM
#35
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Date Joined:
Nov 13, 2004
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However, if one asks the simple question of how one would resolve checks involving background professions, no clean, clear answer can come because everyone's opinion will vary and the rules don't provide any direct help.
Well, it's not entirely silent on this issue.
Sometimes you're not making an attack or a skill check, but trying to accomplish a task that doesn't fall into either category. You make an ability check. Ability checks give the DM a way to adjudicate actions when an attack or a skill check isn't appropriate.
If a character tries an action that might fail, use a check to resolve it. To do that, you need to know what kind of check it is and what the DC is.
Other Checks: If the action...is not an obvious skill or attack roll, use an ability check. Consult the Difficulty Class and Damage by Level table below, and set the DC according to whether you think the task should be easy, hard, or somewhere in between.[/quote]
So, if your background abilities somehow comes into play during an adventure (beyond the bonuses mentioned in the Player's Handbook II), and has both a chance of failing and consequences for failing, the DM picks the appropriate ability score for the task and has you make a check. As per usual, the DM sets the DC for the task.
4e D&D is not a "Tabletop MMO." It is not Massively Multiplayer, and is usually not played Online. Come up with better descriptions of your complaints, cuz this one means jack ****.
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4 years ago ::
May 07, 2009 - 2:58PM
#36
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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Not every moment involves taking damage though.
Page 42 provides DCs as well.
I refute your perspective. I have played every edition of D&D back to white box, which I still own. 2nd edition had many, many secondary skills. 3rd edition codified this further. 4th edition pretends they don't exist.
"many, many" isn't the point. The point is what they do. First Non-Weapon Proficiencies did not scale. You either had Cooking or you didn't have Cooking. All characters with Cooking were equally skilled, depending only upon their Dexterity modifier.
And these NWPs did not tell you how masterful a chef you were. You were simply skilled or unskilled. In fact, Cooking only allowed you to cook decent campfire grub. There was no way for you to be a culinary master.
How is that different from choosing a Professional Background from the PHB II? It lets you gain a related skill as a class skill or become traine din it if it is already a class skill. Cooking, for instance, might involve Perception or Nature.
Only 3rd edition allowed for gradations in skill. And that was presumed, since the only actual rules-based ramification of ranks in CraPPer sills was how much money you made. Everything was based on Wisdom or Int of Charisma. A Strength 3 Blacksmith with Wisdom 10 made as much money as an 18 Strength blacksmith with Wisdom 10.
It just fails at some things because it chose not to address them.
It addresses them as well as 2nd edition did and better than Basic or 1st. Through Backgrounds.
I don't remember saying anything about making money.
Then you're not playing 3rd edition with CraPPer skills as written. You're playing a house-ruled version.
Let me give you a situation. Heroes arrive at a town besieged. The town's blacksmith is dead. In 4th edition the best I can hope for is some character cared so much about his or her background that they may have added 'fluff' that they are trained as a blacksmith.
Or a Background!!
But let me address your hypothetical in a few ways.
First, you'd be better off having your party cleric cast Make Whole (level 2) and your wizard cast Mending (level 1).
Second, even though repairing items costs materials equal to 20% of the price of the item to be repaired (rather than the 33.3% for creating an item), the time to repair is still determined by the price of the item. Most martial weapons and armor have a DC of 15 to make. Your basic longsword costs 15 gp.
So you can basically make a longsword in a week. If you try it on the daily basis (1500 cp), and have, say, a +10 on your check, and voluntarily add 10 to the DC, you can expect to make a longsword in 2 days by spending 3 gp.
If your PCs have more than a few days kill while the place is being besieged, I'd be shocked. Under Third edition, your character is going to repair a few swords (but might as well spend the extra 2 gp/sword and make them brand new!).
Why is that more dramatic than simply fudging how long it takes to repair swords in your world and letting the character create a handful? Why must you make your PC sit down and do algebra before feeling useful?
You're the DM. There's nothing wrong with saying, "Barbara has a smithy Background so I'll let her make a handful of swords. Rufus, you don't know one thing about smithing -- you can't make anything."
Well just because you do not, does not mean there are not countless situations where others find them useful.
I dispute that they are useful as opposed to a crutch. They are allowing a DM to substitute math for story. The Craft rules serve no other game design purpose.
I have played RPGS for over 30 years.
Bully for you. I've been playing a mere 26 years in comparison.
What is being thrown around as fluff now, has provided some of the most interesting situations in a role playing environment I have seen.
And I disagree. I think good DMing and resourceful playing makes for interesting situations. Because peope are rolling dice during the process they falsely attribute the excitement to the dice in the same way that people attribute homeopathic remedies taken three days after a cold to their cure, even though most colds end after three days.
More than that, these things are one of the differences between playing a involved enjoyable role playing experience or merely working through a combat simulation.
No, they aren't. Roleplaying allows people to be involved in an enjoyable role-playign experience. Doing math problems to determine how fast you build a sword is not role-playing. It's Mathletes.
You might as well have the following exchange.
"Player: I entreat the king to allow us liberty to cross his land so we can vanquish the Orc King!"
"DM: Okay. Finish this sudoko puzzle."
"Player: What?"
"DM: Look, we can roleplay out a whole conversation, but frankly, the rules really don't tell me why kings agree to let people cross their lands. So instead of just making stuff up without much guidance, you can fill out this sudoko. Since your charisma is only 13, I started you out with 13 of the squares completed. You should have put more points in Charisma dude. If you can solve the sudoko than you have puzzled out how to convince the king to let you pass. Good luck."
More roles equals more role playing.
You're confusing roleplaying with stats on the page. More numbers on the page don't equal to roleplaying. Creating interesting non-combat scenarios equals roleplaying. more numbers just means more number-crunching.
Answer the question please. How good a blacksmith is 4th edition character x. vs. 4th edition character y?
As good as the DM thinks appropriate based on their character histories.
Even a framework for their usage is missing from 4th edition.
Backgrounds.
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4 years ago ::
May 07, 2009 - 3:00PM
#37
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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Ugh, what does the DC being provided have to do with it? If a DM was to decide that something like that was important in a session, he would decide on a rational DC (with guidance from the books), and ask the players to roll.
If he's going to pick an arbitrary number to have the players roll against, why not narrate what happens based on the character background? Or, if he insists on letting dice tell the story, rather than he and the players, just pick a number and tell the character to beat it to succeed on the performance? Why do players have to waster time picking skills if the DM is going to pick an arbitrary number?
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4 years ago ::
May 07, 2009 - 3:30PM
#38
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Date Joined:
Jul 18, 2007
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Page 42 does not cover blacksmithing and that ilk. No amount of hand waving is going to make it so.
It doesn't need to cover blacksmithing. I've pointed this out plenty of times before - since there is no craft skill, as a DM I let people make whatever they have the materials and time to make. No rolls, no checks.
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4 years ago ::
May 07, 2009 - 3:45PM
#39
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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Page 42 does not cover blacksmithing and that ilk.
Page 42 covers player actions that are not defined by the rules and require dice rolls to adjudicate.
I personally agree that blacksmithing isn't covered there because you shouldn't use dice to adjudicate crafting. But apparently other people do. For them, page 42 provides DCs.
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4 years ago ::
May 07, 2009 - 3:50PM
#40
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I whole heartedly agree with the topic poster, well said indeed Sir! (Or Madame!)
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