Wildshape all day at 1st level that doesn't do anything
If Wildshape "doesn't do anything", then talking "doesn't do anything", and you should just kill everything. Clothes "don't do anything", and you should just fight naked. Hair "doesn't do anything", and you should just be bald.
Game consequences are not reliant on +/- 1.
EvilVegan wrote:
Of course that isn't against the system or edition specific, just a shared experience.
Right, and the purpose of "balance" is to eliminate those issues. She wasn't having fun, so you've been working to adjust the system to accommodate her. One way to "Re-create" the spells is to make her attacks static. She "takes 10" on the rolls, and the targets roll 1d20-10, and add that to their targeted defense.
It's easier to fix these issues if you have a "rule of thumb" to base your changes against.
D&D 4E Herald and M:tG Rules Advisor I expect posters to follow the Code of Conduct, use Basic Etiquette, and avoid Poor Logic. If you don't follow these guidelines, I consider you to be disrespectful to everyone on these forums. If you respond to me without following these guidelines, I consider it a personal attack. I grew up in a bilingual household, which means I am familiar with the difficulties in adopting a different vocabulary and grammar. That doesn't bother me. Persistent use of bad capitalization, affirming the consequent, and flaming bother me a great deal.
204.1b Some effects change an object’s card type, supertype, or subtype but specify that the object retains a prior card type, supertype, or subtype. In such cases, all the object’s prior card types, supertypes, and subtypes are retained. This rule applies to effects that use the phrase “in addition to its types” or that state that something is “still a [card type].” Some effects state that an object becomes an “artifact creature”; these effects also allow the object to retain all of its prior card types and subtypes.
"Eight Edition Rules Update" We eventually decided not to change this template, because players are used to “becomes an artifact creature,” and like it much better.
Players were used to Combat on the Stack, but you got rid of that because it was unintuitive. The only phrase needed is "in addition to its types"; the others are misleading and unintuitive.
Use a computerized random number generator instead of dice (a good one, if you can). If she seriously consistently breaks the bell curve on that, and no one else at your table does, I might be forced to alter my views of the nature of reality
A laptop or PDA should work for it. Prolly an iPhone app out there.
If Wildshape "doesn't do anything", then talking "doesn't do anything", and you should just kill everything. Clothes "don't do anything", and you should just fight naked. Hair "doesn't do anything", and you should just be bald.
It doesn't, by itself, do anything more than picking up a longsword or an axe or a club or a chair (improvised weapon) does for a fighter (less actually).
Turning into a bear doesn't mean anything compared to turning into a turtle or a cloud of claws or a more menacing version of yourself. It is fluff that enables other things (feats and powers). These other things do stuff, but wildshape by itself doesn't do anything off the bat, and there definitely isn't a way to use it to think outside of the box, because the box is balanced and being outside of it is bad.
You can refluff all day but it never does anything more than allow you to use class features. And if thats all it does, why not just build it into the class features like they did with the Warden.
"You turn into a cat until the end of your current turn and do something catlike."
And include a note saying that at-will you can pretend to be anything you want as long as you never attempt anything that the creature may be able to do that you can't. "I'm a jungle cat! Of course I Can't climb a tree (I'm only human after all). I'm a sea turtle! No I can't swim or hold my breath for a long time (I'm only human after all)."
I always knew the druids were drugged up hippies, but now they're having mechanically supported hallucinations too!
Game consequences are not reliant on +/- 1.
And I like it when they are. I like my games to have some sort of mechanical representation of good thinking that doesn't come from the pre-set thinking built into the classes by people who don't know me, my group, or what we find fun.
And I understand that we are all gathered to play a game of make believe, but I just want to point out that we gather to play a game of make-believe, and in this particular game of make-believe we tend to use dice to roll things that represent what we do in make-believe land and if we make-believe we're one thing (An elven fighter for example) you roll dice and add different numbers than if we pretend to be something else (a goliath barbarian perhaps), so when you pretend to be one thing (a bear) you may actually expect to roll dice and add different numbers than another thing (a three-legged dog with no teeth perhaps). I know its a lot to ask for and would make everything in the world explode with brokenness but getting a floating +1 to a skill check or ability score would be sufficient for me.
Daily non-combat mechanical benefits of wildshape: 2nd level: 5 minutes of tiny size and stealth bonus 6th level: 5 minutes of flight and tiny size 10th level: Nothing outside of combat 12th level (Sky Hunter only): 5 minutes of flight and a perception bonus. 16th level: 5 minutes of flight and move through cracks really fast. 22nd level: 5 minutes of flight a little faster
Feats: +5 to Stealth +5 to Perception, speed.
So flight, perception, and stealth are the only things a druid can do with wildshape. Really thats not much utility (pardon the pun).
I figured out a way to fix it (for me), I'm just going to make the 2nd level one let you be more than just a sneaky mouse, and let it apply to any non-Knowledge skill check that uses Strength, Constitution, Dexterity, or Wisdom. A daily +5 to one skill for 5 minutes if you can justify it with an animal form.
The 6th level one I'm thinking could also grant a swim speed and breath-holding; and maybe a low-light/darkvision form too.
Compare it to the bard's Inspire Competence.
A druid's wildshape does nothing except flight, perception, and stealth, and only then if you specifically pick those abilities over something else as a daily ability; and combat forms are equivalent to the difference in choices weapon for a fighter.
The ability by itself does nothing at all.
And please don't get me wrong, I really want to play a game where I'm a shifter druid and I'm going to play them as a "were-wolf" and never use a single ability that doesn't fit that theme, and I'm glad that this is a feasible use of the class. I just wish it had slightly more mechanically varied uses than it currently does.
Right, and the purpose of "balance" is to eliminate those issues. She wasn't having fun, so you've been working to adjust the system to accommodate her. One way to "Re-create" the spells is to make her attacks static. She "takes 10" on the rolls, and the targets roll 1d20-10, and add that to their targeted defense.
It's easier to fix these issues if you have a "rule of thumb" to base your changes against.
Thats a wonderful idea, but a lot of work (in session) for me and I'm lazy. :D
Solik wrote:
Use a computerized random number generator instead of dice (a good one, if you can). If she seriously consistently breaks the bell curve on that, and no one else at your table does, I might be forced to alter my views of the nature of reality
A laptop or PDA should work for it. Prolly an iPhone app out there.
Well, if I can ever get my laptop successfully repaired by BestBuy/Geek Squad (shipped out and back 3 times, haven't had it for 6 weeks), I'll get you a good sample size.
What would be a sufficient sample size to blow your mind? I'm reasonably sure she'll manage to fail with a computer. Do you have one in mind that is known to have an acceptable rate of randomness?
And include a note saying that at-will you can pretend to be anything you want as long as you never attempt anything that the creature may be able to do that you can't. "I'm a jungle cat! Of course I Can't climb a tree (I'm only human after all). I'm a sea turtle! No I can't swim or hold my breath for a long time (I'm only human after all)."
I always knew the druids were drugged up hippies, but now they're having mechanically supported hallucinations too!
Equal Rites]Esk: "But what happened?" Granny: "You thought that Borrowing wasn't enough. You thought it would be a fine thing to steal another's body. But you must know that a body is like - like a jelly mould. It sets a shape on its contents, d'you see? You can't have a girl's mind in an eagle's body. Not for long, at any rate." Esk:"I became an eagle?" Granny: "Yes." Esk: "Not me at all?"
Granny thought for a while. She always had to pause when conversations with Esk led her beyond the reaches of a decent person's vocabulary. "No," she said at last, "not in the way you mean. Just an eagle with maybe some strange dreams sometimes. Like when you dream you're flying, perhaps it would remember walking and talking."
Esk: "Urgh."
"But it's all over now," said Granny, treating her to a thin smile. "You're your true self again and the eagle has got its mind back. It's sitting in the big beech by the privy wrote:
Esk: "But what happened?" Granny: "You thought that Borrowing wasn't enough. You thought it would be a fine thing to steal another's body. But you must know that a body is like - like a jelly mould. It sets a shape on its contents, d'you see? You can't have a girl's mind in an eagle's body. Not for long, at any rate." Esk:"I became an eagle?" Granny: "Yes." Esk: "Not me at all?"
Granny thought for a while. She always had to pause when conversations with Esk led her beyond the reaches of a decent person's vocabulary. "No," she said at last, "not in the way you mean. Just an eagle with maybe some strange dreams sometimes. Like when you dream you're flying, perhaps it would remember walking and talking."
Esk: "Urgh."
"But it's all over now," said Granny, treating her to a thin smile. "You're your true self again and the eagle has got its mind back. It's sitting in the big beech by the privy; I should like you to put out some food for it."
First level characters are a cut above the average population. But that doesn't make a wizard a master of arcane energies, or a fighter an unparalleled opponent with a sword. By the same token, first level druids haven't mastered the ability to imitate an animal's form perfectly. As they gain experience, their imitation improves.
EvilVegan wrote:
Daily non-combat mechanical benefits of wildshape: 2nd level: 5 minutes of tiny size and stealth bonus 6th level: 5 minutes of flight and tiny size 10th level: Nothing outside of combat 12th level (Sky Hunter only): 5 minutes of flight and a perception bonus. 16th level: 5 minutes of flight and move through cracks really fast. 22nd level: 5 minutes of flight a little faster
Ah! I think I've found part of the problem!!
The alternate beast forms do not last for five minutes (encounter-time). They actually last all day, just like in 2nd! Unlike 2nd edition, for about five minutes after initially transforming, you can still change into other beast forms, or back to humanoid form. Once those five minutes are up, however, you are only able to shift out of the alternate beast form, not in.
EvilVegan wrote:
And I understand that we are all gathered to play a game of make believe, but I just want to point out that we gather to play a game of make-believe, and in this particular game of make-believe we tend to use dice to roll things that represent what we do in make-believe land and if we make-believe we're one thing (An elven fighter for example) you roll dice and add different numbers than if we pretend to be something else (a goliath barbarian perhaps), so when you pretend to be one thing (a bear) you may actually expect to roll dice and add different numbers than another thing (a three-legged dog with no teeth perhaps). I know its a lot to ask for and would make everything in the world explode with brokenness but getting a floating +1 to a skill check or ability score would be sufficient for me.
I guess I could use Robin (Martial) and Beast Boy (Druid) from the Teen Titans cartoon series to make a point, but I don't think it's anything you aren't already aware of.
D&D 4E Herald and M:tG Rules Advisor I expect posters to follow the Code of Conduct, use Basic Etiquette, and avoid Poor Logic. If you don't follow these guidelines, I consider you to be disrespectful to everyone on these forums. If you respond to me without following these guidelines, I consider it a personal attack. I grew up in a bilingual household, which means I am familiar with the difficulties in adopting a different vocabulary and grammar. That doesn't bother me. Persistent use of bad capitalization, affirming the consequent, and flaming bother me a great deal.
204.1b Some effects change an object’s card type, supertype, or subtype but specify that the object retains a prior card type, supertype, or subtype. In such cases, all the object’s prior card types, supertypes, and subtypes are retained. This rule applies to effects that use the phrase “in addition to its types” or that state that something is “still a [card type].” Some effects state that an object becomes an “artifact creature”; these effects also allow the object to retain all of its prior card types and subtypes.
"Eight Edition Rules Update" We eventually decided not to change this template, because players are used to “becomes an artifact creature,” and like it much better.
Players were used to Combat on the Stack, but you got rid of that because it was unintuitive. The only phrase needed is "in addition to its types"; the others are misleading and unintuitive.
First level characters are a cut above the average population. But that doesn't make a wizard a master of arcane energies, or a fighter an unparalleled opponent with a sword. By the same token, first level druids haven't mastered the ability to imitate an animal's form perfectly. As they gain experience, their imitation improves.
I understand that, but its still not something I'm thrilled about. As I said, I don't really like the concept of a "shapeshifting combat druid". I think warden covers that well, or maybe another uncreated striker that focuses on shapeshifting, but druids thematically are nature-wizards/witches/priests. But thats a personal problem and I'm dealing with it. And yes I know you can build a druid and never use Wildshape, but I didn't like the concept in previous editions either (or WoW).
Ah! I think I've found part of the problem!!
The alternate beast forms do not last for five minutes (encounter-time). They actually last all day, just like in 2nd! Unlike 2nd edition, for about five minutes after initially transforming, you can still change into other beast forms, or back to humanoid form. Once those five minutes are up, however, you are only able to shift out of the alternate beast form, not in.
? I don't see why druids would be the exception to the 5-minute rule. I see that the ability says until the end of the encounter you can turn into X and shift around until it ends, but I don't see any language that says the bonuses would continue after the encounter/5-minutes was over. I'm sure this has been argued to death somewhere on the boards, so I'll search for an explanation elsewhere.
But even so it still doesn't cover versatility that should come with being able to become any animal. Stealth, Perception, and Flight are not the only things that the infinite variety of animals do better than people. I mean, flight is one of the more useful abilities and would be, in my opinion, the hardest one to balance, granting a climb speed is mechanically weaker and thematically greater (eg, for a jungle cat), so I don't really have a problem house-ruling it. I just don't see why they released such a limited use wildshape. I suspect it is so that they can release supplements to improve it.
I guess I could use Robin (Martial) and Beast Boy (Druid) from the Teen Titans cartoon series to make a point, but I don't think it's anything you aren't already aware of.
Amusingly enough we accidentally made the Teen Titans once in 3e. I made an Illusionist/Necromancer (Raven), my friend made a goblin druid (Beastboy), another person was playing a monk (Robin), another was playing a warforged barbarian (Cyborg), and we had a female warlock (Starfire). We didn't notice it until game 2 or 3, but then we just ran with it.
I didn't like the concept in previous editions either (or WoW).
Tough :P It's part of the D&D tradition, if we like it or not.
EvilVegan wrote:
I'm sure this has been argued to death somewhere on the boards, so I'll search for an explanation elsewhere.
Bloody search feature still only works for usernames :headexplo
EvilVegan wrote:
But even so it still doesn't cover versatility that should come with being able to become any animal.
Correction: it doesn't cover any mechanical changes that result from imitating the shape of any animal. I can understand that you'd like a mechanical representation for changing from wolf to lion to anaconda. I disagree that Attribute changes are needed to successfully represent the change.
Amoung other things, I can foresee "what stats should females get" showing up again.
Teen Titans happens to be my go-to example of the power-level difference between druid/fighter, in editions. The reason Robin was "better" than the rest of the team has more to do with the player being observably smarter than the other "players".
D&D 4E Herald and M:tG Rules Advisor I expect posters to follow the Code of Conduct, use Basic Etiquette, and avoid Poor Logic. If you don't follow these guidelines, I consider you to be disrespectful to everyone on these forums. If you respond to me without following these guidelines, I consider it a personal attack. I grew up in a bilingual household, which means I am familiar with the difficulties in adopting a different vocabulary and grammar. That doesn't bother me. Persistent use of bad capitalization, affirming the consequent, and flaming bother me a great deal.
204.1b Some effects change an object’s card type, supertype, or subtype but specify that the object retains a prior card type, supertype, or subtype. In such cases, all the object’s prior card types, supertypes, and subtypes are retained. This rule applies to effects that use the phrase “in addition to its types” or that state that something is “still a [card type].” Some effects state that an object becomes an “artifact creature”; these effects also allow the object to retain all of its prior card types and subtypes.
"Eight Edition Rules Update" We eventually decided not to change this template, because players are used to “becomes an artifact creature,” and like it much better.
Players were used to Combat on the Stack, but you got rid of that because it was unintuitive. The only phrase needed is "in addition to its types"; the others are misleading and unintuitive.
Correction: it doesn't cover any mechanical changes that result from imitating the shape of any animal. I can understand that you'd like a mechanical representation for changing from wolf to lion to anaconda. I disagree that Attribute changes are needed to successfully represent the change.
Correction: It doesn't cover all mechanical changes. It already includes numerous mechanical benefits for certain forms.
Its more of a "if this, why not this?" issue than anything. If mouse = stealth and tiny, and Raven = flight + tiny, and Swarm = flight + swarmy, why not Squirrel = Climb speed and Fish = Swim speed. There isn't enough utility. They already set the "fluff to mechanical" precedence. I want it expanded to make "sense". And Balance isn't much of an issue, as it seems you can get unlimited permanent flight at 6th level, which is far more powerful than a climb speed. I'm reasonably sure this was an intentional oversight that will be corrected in Primal Power with more Utility forms or feats that grant different bonuses from Stealth/Perception/Flight. Its easier to sell books with options if you don't include obvious, but not entirely necessary, options in the initial book.
I don't miss "I'm a 90 year old human with a 1 strength and a 25 wisdom, oh wait no I'm a T-rex [[STOMP'N'CHOMP]]". As far as the whole combat side of it goes, the differences between pounce and savage rend (for example) are more than sufficient. Difference in damage dice and status effect covers any difference in strength or capacity of form in a very balanced and mechanically pleasing way.
Correction: It doesn't cover all mechanical changes. It already includes numerous mechanical benefits for certain forms.
Which is why I said "any animal". I suppose I should have said "every animal"?
EvilVegan wrote:
Its more of a "if this, why not this?" issue than anything. [...] I'm reasonably sure this was an intentional oversight that will be corrected in Primal Power with more Utility forms or feats that grant different bonuses from Stealth/Perception/Flight. Its easier to sell books with options if you don't include obvious, but not entirely necessary, options in the initial book.
Or testing grounds for future options. Like the rogue mechanic in Martial Power, or Beast Companions for familiars in Arcane Power.
EvilVegan wrote:
I don't miss "I'm a 90 year old human with a 1 strength and a 25 wisdom, oh wait no I'm a T-rex
Ah, sorry about that, then.
D&D 4E Herald and M:tG Rules Advisor I expect posters to follow the Code of Conduct, use Basic Etiquette, and avoid Poor Logic. If you don't follow these guidelines, I consider you to be disrespectful to everyone on these forums. If you respond to me without following these guidelines, I consider it a personal attack. I grew up in a bilingual household, which means I am familiar with the difficulties in adopting a different vocabulary and grammar. That doesn't bother me. Persistent use of bad capitalization, affirming the consequent, and flaming bother me a great deal.
204.1b Some effects change an object’s card type, supertype, or subtype but specify that the object retains a prior card type, supertype, or subtype. In such cases, all the object’s prior card types, supertypes, and subtypes are retained. This rule applies to effects that use the phrase “in addition to its types” or that state that something is “still a [card type].” Some effects state that an object becomes an “artifact creature”; these effects also allow the object to retain all of its prior card types and subtypes.
"Eight Edition Rules Update" We eventually decided not to change this template, because players are used to “becomes an artifact creature,” and like it much better.
Players were used to Combat on the Stack, but you got rid of that because it was unintuitive. The only phrase needed is "in addition to its types"; the others are misleading and unintuitive.
