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4 years ago ::
Apr 14, 2009 - 10:02PM
#51
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Ok, here is my 2 cents on this whole thing.
I am really disappointed to see it come to this, i loved having PDF versions of the books (i find it much easier to carry a laptop to my games than to carry a ton of books..) I understand why WOTC have pulled PDF's, but i still think it is the wrong decision, there were pirates copies of the books available before WOTC released official PDF's, and i am sure they will continue now (perhaps more so as a sort of backlash against what WOTC has done, and also with those that want PDF versions of the books)
I the long run, i really do think this will hurt WOTC more than it will help it. It displays a total non-understanding of today's RPG retail environment and the current gamer (who i can safely say is far different from their counterpart form 20 years ago).
Also companies like white wolf have jumped at this mistake by putting their PDF's on sale, and their by attracted some of the fans the WOTC will inevitably loose form this.
I am personally undecided which way to go here, i love 4th ed, and i believe it to be about the best system i have ever used in games, but having said that, i have well and truly moved on from carrying and pile of heavy books to every game session i play in (which are normally not at home).. perhaps it is time i went back to playing WoD when i am travelling for a session and limit 4th ed game sot home..... and that would be a real shame.
Well, I already decided to go the route of not supporting WotC because of their decision. I will never buy another product from WotC again and this is coming from someone that supported D&D for 30+ years. Yes, I was around when Gary and Dave came up with their fantasy supplement for a miniature wargame called Chainmail. I've watched this discussion since day one and some of you had good points, well others had nothing to say. So with that said, it's time to say Game Over for WotC.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 14, 2009 - 11:23PM
#52
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Date Joined:
Nov 15, 2008
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Well, I'm late but I want my opinion heard.
I bought hardback copies of the PH, MM & DMG. I also bought pdfs of the PH and DMG. I have since bought every other book that WotC has put out as a pdf. Let me list the PDFs I have bought:
Player's Handbook
DMG
H2 Thunderspire
FR Campaign guide
Adventurer's Vault
FR Player's Guide
Marital Powers
Draconomicon
Open Grave
Manual of the Planes
PHB2
I will not be buying Arcane Powers as a Hardback book, because I don't want to carry around my books. I love my pdfs. The instant searching. The copy and pasting of rules in game discussions. I probably won't buy another book until they are sold as pdfs again.
But I did buy them as pdfs.
By not having that as an option, they've lost atleast one sale every month.
I'm sorry they have a problem, but it wasn't me, and I want the PDFs back. If they sell them, they make some money from them. If they don't sell them, they make no money from them. Seems pretty simple.
And I'm still waiting for me Virtual Table Top.
Viva La "what ever version of D&D you are playing right now!"
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4 years ago ::
Apr 14, 2009 - 11:23PM
#53
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Date Joined:
Jul 22, 2008
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About the only way I've ever seen to get the better of piracy (or at least make infringers feel like they're missing out) is to be able to offer more features than the pirated version of your product can offer.
The only other way I've seen that's effective is to give your product away. Even then (Stardock) you have to have bought the product to get patches and feature upgrades. So I guess that goes back to my first statement.
A major draw for pirates is the feeling of triumph you get when you are able to have something that costs a lot of money for free. If it was free (or little cost) to begin with, not many people are going to want to bother with searching out the pirated version. So, offering a product that costs almost nothing to provide for a token price is actually doing something about piracy.
Now, as far as useful suggestions go, one viable option is to offer the pdf's at a reasonable price. I've gone over this in another thread, but essentially, since we don't have to pay for physical storage, shipping, and printing; pdf prices should should reflect that. I would never buy a pdf for the same price as a book. I would feel beyond gullible.
If anyone feels that the creation of a pdf involves costs similar to the creation of a hardbound book, I'll listen and see if it makes sense.
Another suggestion would be to offer the product in a format that is far superior to a scanned electronic document that you couldn't get by illegal means. How? I don't know, but I'm open to the idea. I was skeptical of DDI, at first, but I've found it pretty invaluable (I just wish WotC would offer more maps sanitized for player use ). I do know that intrusive DRM is a no-go for me.
If there were a way to be able to update your pdf with current errata, I might almost consider it. For example: You take your pdf and are able to start up an online tool that checks in with WotC to see if you own the book in question, and, if so, overlays the appropriate errata on your document. Maybe I would have the actual pdf and be able to use it normally, but to get the errata overlay, I would have to open it in a proprietary WotC tool.
I really really reallyreally hate DRM, but I would be willing to spend some money to have access to this solution. Of course, you couldn't use it online, but you'd still have the original pdf and your errata pdf's in that case.
Just spitballing. This would make me consider buying the pdf version. If we could have it at a reduced price (or free) because we already own the dead tree version, this would be pretty much sold to me.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 14, 2009 - 11:38PM
#54
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Being unable to appreciate the difference between the physical goods and that which is infinitely and instantly reproducible electronically/digitally is the root of the problem. They're different.
As long as you approach online piracy with the same mindset as you approach the theft of a physical object, all efforts to reduce and curb it will fail.
Could you please stop advocating piracy by advocating tactics that won't work? Advocating piracy is against the forum rules.:D
And you missed the point. The point was that the old man (like most of the posters here) instead of trying to help WotC catch the pirates or come up with a useful solution, have simply stated, tirelessly, that the pirates are to tough to catch and should be simply ignored. That was the point. All of the so called "more intelligent" solutions mostly consist of just going about business as usual without trying to capture pirates.
I am a: Lawful Good Dragonborn Paladin
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4 years ago ::
Apr 14, 2009 - 11:49PM
#55
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Date Joined:
Apr 11, 2001
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I'll be honest... I haven't been following this (or the previous thread) at all. Just some quick skimming really, so I apologize if this has been brought up before:
I think we can all agree that by pulling PDFs completely, WotC has made a decision that will almost certainly cost them a great deal of legitimate revenue (at least until some new format/method is utilized).
That being said, and this is where it's going to sound REAL crazy, what if losing money by pulling out on PDF sales is exactly what WotC wants to do?
Hear me out for a minute: What if (and I understand this is pure speculation) there is some obscure business-related reason that WotC wishes to intentionally lose money by pulling PDF sales? What if there is some on-paper reason that we just don't/can't see?
Maybe WotC wants to demonstrate to it's parent company (Hasbro) that illegal PDF proliferation is hurting it's sales, and that an exaggerated on-paper proof will trigger the parent company to invest more funds into countering it? Maybe WotC wants to make some other statement to Hasbro by losing revenue (and actively suing people). Maybe WotC wants to break-off from Hasbro by making itself seem unsustainable due to changing times and improved technologies. Maybe part of this whole issue has to do with some greater overarching business plan/scheme that we simply aren't in-the-know on?
I'm no businessman... far from it. Yet, even I have to acknowledge that there are subtleties to big business that are beyond my personal grasp... unique situations where engineering a specific loss can lead to a greater long-term gain for the company, or alternately justify that company's actions to "trim the fat." I don't have any answers to any of these questions, but we must at least acknowledge that such questions do exist.
The pen is mightier than the sword after all.
Note: I cannot make any guarantee of a response in this thread; Threads like this move so darn fast, it's hard to keep up, and I may just decide it isn't worth my time.
I'll sometimes go days without being online; Have patience, it may take me days to respond.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 14, 2009 - 11:49PM
#56
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2006
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If there were a way to be able to update your pdf with current errata, I might almost consider it. For example: You take your pdf and are able to start up an online tool that checks in with WotC to see if you own the book in question, and, if so, overlays the appropriate errata on your document. Maybe I would have the actual pdf and be able to use it normally, but to get the errata overlay, I would have to open it in a proprietary WotC tool.
They actually updated the core book PDFs with errata about the time the deluxe version got released, and emailed all the previous purchasers to let them know to download the updated versions.
That's the kind of thing they could have pushed as a selling point - if you're downloading a pirated copy, who knows what version you're getting, but if you paid for it, you'd know you had for sure access to the latest copy when you wanted to download it.
First thing for people working on providing new features should remember:
People hate change for the sake of change. They usually don't mind genuine improvements, but change just because it's change and therefore cool tends to get hackles raised.
Second thing for people working on providing new 'improved' features should remember:
It shouldn't be hard for users to figure out how to turn them off if they don't like them. Just because the programmer thinks he's had a great idea doesn't mean everyone else is going to agree with them.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 14, 2009 - 11:54PM
#57
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Date Joined:
Jul 22, 2008
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They actually updated the core book PDFs with errata about the time the deluxe version got released, and emailed all the previous purchasers to let them know to download the updated versions.
That's the kind of thing they could have pushed as a selling point - if you're downloading a pirated copy, who knows what version you're getting, but if you paid for it, you'd know you had for sure access to the latest copy when you wanted to download it.
Man, that's exactly w@ I'm talking about! If I'd have even known about this, I would have looked into the pdf version.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 15, 2009 - 12:39AM
#58
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2006
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Unfortunately it only happened the one time, when they released the Deluxe Edition. A shame really. 
First thing for people working on providing new features should remember:
People hate change for the sake of change. They usually don't mind genuine improvements, but change just because it's change and therefore cool tends to get hackles raised.
Second thing for people working on providing new 'improved' features should remember:
It shouldn't be hard for users to figure out how to turn them off if they don't like them. Just because the programmer thinks he's had a great idea doesn't mean everyone else is going to agree with them.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 15, 2009 - 12:44AM
#59
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Date Joined:
Feb 23, 2009
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without trying to capture pirates.
Capture!? LOL :D
What are we going to do? Round them up and send them to Gitmo? 
I haven't laughed so hard in a while. Thanks for that.
Anyway, back to practical matters.
The primary concern of those you are finding disagree with you is to reduce piracy and have WotC operate in a way that is the most profitable for them. This includes how they approach digital distribution of their products.
I'm sorry that you can't understand how someone can be against piracy and also against wasting resources to "capture" ( ) the pirates.
So that begs the question, what is the actual fight here?
Is the goal to make the pirates pay, face a trial, arrest, etc.,?
Or is the goal to make WotC's digital initiatives viable and profitable regardless of what the pirates do?
I think it is far better to make the pirates irrelevant rather than try to "bring them to justice."
WotC's current actions involve giving the pirates a 100% monopoly on the digital distribution of all D&D products. If someone wants a digital version of any version of D&D back to the original release in the 1970s, the pirates have it and no one else. They have a complete and utter monopoly on digital D&D. And WotC handed it to them.
All while they attempt to sue individuals in foreign countries that aren't going to be able to be collected from. Good luck getting money from that kid in the Philippines. Or the ones in Eastern Europe. Or the three they haven't even been able to identify (John Doe 1, 2 and 3)-- let's go "capture" those guys!:D
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4 years ago ::
Apr 15, 2009 - 3:25AM
#60
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Date Joined:
Mar 16, 2006
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I am a huge D&D and 4E enthusiast.
I game at a school, above a pub, and at a friend's house, once a week each. Weekly, I DM for almost 20 players. I use a laptop for my convenience, though I also have hardcopies of every product I own a pdf for. But I simply could not carry the amount of information needed from place to place.
I love being able to quickly consult texts while I create adventures.
I like being able to use the 'find' tool and bookmarks to locate what I want quickly and easily.
I enjoy being able to copy-and-paste information into handouts for players, or to create my own magic item cards.
D&D Insider is no substitute for these facilities, as there is no internet access where I game. I enjoy the online content, but it is only useful while I prepare for a game.
Because of the sheer destructive effect of the decision made by WotC, I can only imagine that the pdf ban has been brought into effect by someone who does not play our game. (I say our game because D&D belongs to everyone who has supported it since its inception over thirty years ago.) Someone who has little or no concept of the impact he has had on thousands of gamers.
I have just emailed my regular players to inform them that I will not be allowing content from any forthcoming Wizard's products to be used in our bi-weekly game. If it can't be looked-up or double-checked at the gaming table, then it has no place there.
Furthermore, I intend to wind down our 4E campaign and return to playing other editions, or perhaps Pathfinder, whose pdfs are still accessible.
My reason is that Wizard's decision to block pdf releases of their products will have a woeful impact on my method of enjoying and using them. It is a punishment of me, not of product pirates.
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