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4 years ago ::
Apr 14, 2009 - 12:38PM
#31
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Date Joined:
Aug 30, 2007
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Your wrong.
Sure, you aren't the only one saying these things, but majority doesn't make truth. Your wrong.
First, you have never proven that this move is morally wrong. You can spew out platitudes about how this decision will only force people to pirate, but in all honesty if its only a matter of convenience that keeps people from breaking the law, then those people probably deserve to go to jail just like those eight hopefully will. If convenience is all it takes to stop you from breaking the law, then you deserve to rot as well.
Some laws are immoral, but to threaten a company with theft-to threaten to violate the rights of the game developers who put their sweat and blood into the game-because they chose to stop providing you with a service they gave freely, is the worst sort of crime. This behavior reveals you to be little better than a brute with a club. What you can't have you will take by force.
Granted, you have yet to come out and advocate piracy explicity, but your posts drip with a subtle menace and approval of those people who would steal from WotC as a matter of convenience. This leads me to think that you may be one of them. If I am wrong, oh well.
You can rationalize that it isn't theft all you want. Really. The fact of the matter is you are taking WotC's ideas from them without their consent or restitution. Theft is theft.
You have also failed to prove that this is a bad financial move. Once again you spew platitudes and bromides common among piracy apologists. You do not have the numbers to prove that this will increase piracy, or to disprove that the pdf sales didn't radically increase piracy.
To put it simply, your wrong. Or perhaps better, it is you who cannot prove yourself right.
If I am wrong, demonstrate it. Provide me with numbers, studies, and the like that demonstrate your position. So far your only tactic, like any good apologist, is to try and shift the burden of proof on others and appeal to some vague common knowledge which you refuse to identify or explain.
If you are truly right in this matter, it should be easy to demonstrate. So far, we are left waiting.
There's sweat and blood in my books? Ewww. Did they have a fight to the death whenever there was a disagreement about a rule?
Seriously, step down from the pedestal and take a deep breath. Yeah he hasn't proven himself right, but neither has he been proven wrong. TAnd trying to prove any financial points without data that WotC isn't going to provide is equally futile. If he was making statements that could be proven, I'd support you on calling him out. In this case, trying to prove or disprove his points is like trying to prove that God exists.
Besides, as you pointed out, he isn't the only one that shares these views. Doesn't make it right, but doesn't make it wrong either.
Owner and Proprietor of the House of Trolls.
God of ownership and possession.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 14, 2009 - 12:51PM
#32
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If they're not going to actively sell PDFs, I think they should at least go with the idea for a cheap download with each book purchase. Proving purchase and avoiding stolen codes would appear to be the major stumbling blocks. I don't think digital downloads are insurmountable as we've been led to believe though. It would require a bit more work but wouldn't it be worth it? Actually proving purchase won't work; it'll just end up stolen somehow. Download codes could still work though. Put a code on an insert card (like those subscription stubs in magazines). If and when a card gets stolen have replacement cards available at the front register (enough to cover each book in inventory). Make sure the customer is aware of this prior to purchase because the cashier will undoubtedly forget. Putting the burden on the customer may seem unreasonable. Put a note in red letters on the back cover however and I'd bet they'll be interested enough to do their part. Everyone checks the back before buying, yeah :P? If they do miss it the first time, I'd bet they catch on next time. As long as a stolen code can be easily replaced there's no problem, and security becomes less of an obstacle. The most important thing is to make as sure as possible that the customer is aware of and gets a cheap download of their purchase. There's simply no way to avoid stolen codes; that's why the original plan fell through. I think the issue has been over-analyzed though. I say do what is reasonable/possible (use long/complex codes for instance) and then move on. If a code is stolen, the thief still has to pay a negligible price for the downlaod (assuming he or she doesn't just find an illegal copy to begin with of course). Anyway, just some rambling thoughts on the abandoned idea for cheap PDF downloads  .
/\ Art
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4 years ago ::
Apr 14, 2009 - 12:56PM
#33
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2003
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Nyronus,
I have not, do not, and never have advocated piracy as my posts in the prior thread to this made abundantly clear. In fact I rather despise pirates as I've made clear many times. In fact it's a bit more visceral than for a lot of you because I actually was on the other side (being a former computer security manager).
I also am a realist when it comes to pirates which can not be said for Wotc (nor the RIAA or MPAA or some others).
As for my point about the "anonymous Wotc executive" it was snark. I don't know what Wotc is saying, but their actions prompted the snark and so I am sticking by it. I should have clearly labled it sarcasm. I am saying it was now.
-Polaris
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4 years ago ::
Apr 14, 2009 - 12:58PM
#34
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Date Joined:
Aug 30, 2007
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If they're not going to actively sell PDFs, I think they should at least go with the idea for a cheap download with each book purchase. Proving purchase and avoiding stolen codes would appear to be the major stumbling blocks. I don't think digital downloads are insurmountable as we've been led to believe though. It would require a bit more work but wouldn't it be worth it?
Actually proving purchase won't work; it'll just end up stolen somehow. Download codes could still work though. Put a code on an insert card (like those subscription stubs in magazines). If and when a card gets stolen have replacement cards available at the front register (enough to cover each book in inventory).
Make sure the customer is aware of this prior to purchase because the cashier will undoubtedly forget. Putting the burden on the customer may seem unreasonable. Put a note in red letters on the back cover however and I'd bet they'll be interested enough to do their part. Everyone checks the back before buying, yeah :P? If they do miss it the first time, I'd bet they catch on next time.
As long as a stolen code can be easily replaced there's no problem, and security becomes less of an obstacle. The most important thing is to make as sure as possible that the customer is aware of and gets a cheap download of their purchase.
There's simply no way to avoid stolen codes; that's why the original plan fell through. I think the issue has been over-analyzed though. I say do what is reasonable/possible (use long/complex codes for instance) and then move on. If a code is stolen, the thief still has to pay a negligible price for the downlaod (assuming he or she doesn't just find an illegal copy to begin with of course).
Anyway, just some rambling thoughts on the abandoned idea for cheap PDF downloads .
Well the problem with that is as soon as one thief or even a legitimate buyer gets the file and seeds it through bittorrent or something, it becomes available to everyone again.
As for the replacement cards at the register, in that case why not have ALL the cards at the register and don't have any in the book in the first place (excepting books ordered online of course).
EDIT: However, even though it would not stop piracy, a cheap or free download with purchase of the hardcover book might at least reduce it, plus increase sales. I know I would buy a lot more books if I was getting a free pdf with the book, and the cost to WotC would be negligible.
Owner and Proprietor of the House of Trolls.
God of ownership and possession.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 14, 2009 - 1:06PM
#35
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2003
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I think most of us agree in the final analysis (as the RIAA and MPAA found out the hard way .... at least i-tunes learned it), is that the best and most effective way of compating data piracy (which can never be eliminated) is to reduce the barrier both in cost and convenience for the legal option. How this is done is a matter of hashing out the details.
I-Tunes gets it. Wotc apparently doesn't.
-Polaris
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4 years ago ::
Apr 14, 2009 - 1:11PM
#36
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Nyronus,
I have not, do not, and never have advocated piracy as my posts in the prior thread to this made abundantly clear. In fact I rather despise pirates as I've made clear many times. In fact it's a bit more visceral than for a lot of you because I actually was on the other side (being a former computer security manager).
I also am a realist when it comes to pirates which can not be said for Wotc (nor the RIAA or MPAA or some others).
As for my point about the "anonymous Wotc executive" it was snark. I don't know what Wotc is saying, but their actions prompted the snark and so I am sticking by it. I should have clearly labled it sarcasm. I am saying it was now.
-Polaris
So because you can't conceive of a way to stop the thugs right now, we should stop trying to stop them altogether? This attitude does far more to help the pirates flourish than anything else.
Its interesting that you turn around and say you were only kidding when I call you for being bogus, and yet demand that others "prove you wrong." Its also very bad that you make fun of a person whom you just admitted you had no clue what they were saying. You have no evidence to support your position, which is apparently "give up because the bad guys will always win," and you just admitted it by stating you really have no clue what WotC is doing or saying.
Why should I listen to you?
I am a: Lawful Good Dragonborn Paladin
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4 years ago ::
Apr 14, 2009 - 1:28PM
#37
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Date Joined:
Aug 30, 2007
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So because you can't conceive of a way to stop the thugs right now, we should stop trying to stop them altogether? This attitude does far more to help the pirates flourish than anything else.
I haven't seen anyone suggest that yet. Saying WotC needs to go about it differently is not the same as saying WotC should ignore it and hope it goes away.
Owner and Proprietor of the House of Trolls.
God of ownership and possession.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 14, 2009 - 1:49PM
#38
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Date Joined:
Feb 23, 2009
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So because you can't conceive of a way to stop the thugs right now, we should stop trying to stop them altogether? This attitude does far more to help the pirates flourish than anything else.
No, it really doesn't. In fact, it does the opposite. Realizing when a certain approach won't work frees up resources to pursue and approach that has a higher chance of succeeding.
You have no evidence to support your position, which is apparently "give up because the bad guys will always win,"
First, it's not "give up" but "try another tactic". It's the smart move to try something different. Doing the same thing again and again and expecting different results is one definition of insanity.
Furthermore, there is evidence. You'll find it by looking at the amount of web traffic that makes up illegal distribution of digital material. For all the money the RIAA and the MPAA spent on suing people and "fighting" piracy, they have failed.
The plus side is that while some people don't learn and keep trying the same thing over and over, others have learned. TV execs are putting their shows on their websites for free. Music, TV and movies are being distributed at a reasonable cost through a digital format. While some people try the same tactics that have proven unsuccessful again and again, others are learning that the real way to combat piracy is not through heavy handedness but through direct competition in the digital front.
Why should I listen to you?
Because he's being reasonable and realistic and has experience in these matters? Because he's not saying what you accuse him of saying?
In short, you've got him wrong and don't understand his position.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 14, 2009 - 1:49PM
#39
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Date Joined:
Sep 12, 2008
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Well the problem with that is as soon as one thief or even a legitimate buyer gets the file and seeds it through bittorrent or something, it becomes available to everyone again.
As for the replacement cards at the register, in that case why not have ALL the cards at the register and don't have any in the book in the first place (excepting books ordered online of course).
EDIT: However, even though it would not stop piracy, a cheap or free download with purchase of the hardcover book might at least reduce it, plus increase sales. I know I would buy a lot more books if I was getting a free pdf with the book, and the cost to WotC would be negligible.
And the moment the books physically come out, they WILL appear on torrent sites, and other means of downloading them (HINT: they are already physically out). Multiple pirates WILL appear swiftly, as soon as they possibly can. Not may, will. Barring the collapse of the 'net, or civilization as we know it, this is not a "may happen" occurrence (again, HINT: the book is already physically out...).
Removing the for-sale PDFs does absolutely nothing productive for WotC. All is accomplishes is cutting off their only valid revenue stream of that sort of product.
Does WotC have the right to remove the PDFs?
Absolutely. Of course they do.
It is morally wrong for them to do so?
Absolutely not, in any way, shape, or form.
Is it incredibly foolish of them to take their only cut of the pie of the digital medium market off said market?
Abso-frigging-lutely. The consumers have every right to tell them right to their face that a given policy or action is incredibly foolish, short-sighted, stupid, or whatever other more colorful terms or phrases one wishes to address to them relaying such a point of view. Moreover, this move DOES actively and wholly remove an entire segment of their customer base who WANT to pay them for their products (albeit they ONLY want to purchase the product in a digital form, for a multitude of potential reasons). To all the folks pointing out the recording and motion picture/television industry, who learned the hard way that this is the wrong approach, yes, yes, yes. This is the worst possible strategy WotC could possibly have taken with regards to this problem.
Sorry, telling WotC this is ridiculously boneheaded is calling a spade a spade. Nothing more, nothing less.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 14, 2009 - 1:51PM
#40
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I haven't seen anyone suggest that yet. Saying WotC needs to go about it differently is not the same as saying WotC should ignore it and hope it goes away.
I think most of us agree in the final analysis (as the RIAA and MPAA found out the hard way .... at least i-tunes learned it), is that the best and most effective way of compating data piracy (which can never be eliminated) is to reduce the barrier both in cost and convenience for the legal option. How this is done is a matter of hashing out the details.
I-Tunes gets it. Wotc apparently doesn't.
-Polaris
So, in other words, give up fighting pirates directly (because you can't), and pray you make enough of them happy with you that they'll stop stealing from you and give you some money.
Give up because the bad guys will always win.
You should really try reading more of the thread bone-naga.
Edit: Also:
First, it's not "give up" but "try another tactic". It's the smart move to try something different. Doing the same thing again and again and expecting different results is one definition of insanity.
Furthermore, there is evidence. You'll find it by looking at the amount of web traffic that makes up illegal distribution of digital material. For all the money the RIAA and the MPAA spent on suing people and "fighting" piracy, they have failed.
The plus side is that while some people don't learn and keep trying the same thing over and over, others have learned. TV execs are putting their shows on their websites for free. Music, TV and movies are being distributed at a reasonable cost through a digital format. While some people try the same tactics that have proven unsuccessful again and again, others are learning that the real way to combat piracy is not through heavy handedness but through direct competition in the digital front.
So, in other words, give up fighting and pray you make them happy enough not to steal from you. I understand exactly what your saying. Your saying that it is to hard to fight them so we should stop trying and do what they want instead of bringing them to justice.
Its letting the bad guys win.
Edit: You know, part of trying another tactic might to be say stop selling the exploitable material for a time until you figure out the best option. Like, say, what WotC is doing now.
I am a: Lawful Good Dragonborn Paladin
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