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4 years ago ::
Apr 08, 2009 - 2:22PM
#411
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Actually no. He staked his OWN criminals to freak out the Turkish army, not people.
Criminals aren't people? 
D&D 4E Herald and M:tG Rules Advisor I expect posters to follow the Code of Conduct, use Basic Etiquette, and avoid Poor Logic. If you don't follow these guidelines, I consider you to be disrespectful to everyone on these forums. If you respond to me without following these guidelines, I consider it a personal attack. I grew up in a bilingual household, which means I am familiar with the difficulties in adopting a different vocabulary and grammar. That doesn't bother me. Persistent use of bad capitalization, affirming the consequent, and flaming bother me a great deal. Rule that I would change: 204.1b
Show
204.1b Some effects change an object’s card type, supertype, or subtype but specify that the object retains a prior card type, supertype, or subtype. In such cases, all the object’s prior card types, supertypes, and subtypes are retained. This rule applies to effects that use the phrase “in addition to its types” or that state that something is “still a [card type].” Some effects state that an object becomes an “artifact creature”; these effects also allow the object to retain all of its prior card types and subtypes.
"Eight Edition Rules Update"
We eventually decided not to change this template, because players are used to “becomes an artifact creature,” and like it much better. Players were used to Combat on the Stack, but you got rid of that because it was unintuitive. The only phrase needed is "in addition to its types"; the others are misleading and unintuitive.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 08, 2009 - 2:27PM
#412
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Bane's evil because the ugly races like him and the ugly races are evil because we need flimsy justification to launch genocide campaigns against them.
For once, we agree. Who was that  who decided to make ugly races worse than pretty races?
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4 years ago ::
Apr 08, 2009 - 2:29PM
#413
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Criminals aren't people?
Not people in the general sense. "People" as he was using it implied random stakings of innocent people as a sacrifice in order to scare the Turkish armies, rather than the actual use of publicly displaying criminals which were executed for their crimes as a psychological tactic... a practice still in use.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 08, 2009 - 2:41PM
#414
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Date Joined:
Oct 17, 2007
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I was actually using people as in"people" as in there are people outside, walking to class. But no worries.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 08, 2009 - 4:46PM
#415
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Not people in the general sense. "People" as he was using it implied random stakings of innocent people as a sacrifice in order to scare the Turkish armies, rather than the actual use of publicly displaying criminals which were executed for their crimes as a psychological tactic... a practice still in use.
That does not make it right  "The End Justifies the Means" is *not* a morally "good" ideal, it is an inherently negative ideal. He was villified because he did things that were not nescesarry, to make points and to achieve goals, he can be looked at as a hero in a single place in the world.
Hitler is a Hero as well to Nazi's, yes? Would you call him a good man?
A Dictator and a Tyrant are two very different things, but you *can* have Tyrants who are not evil, they can't be "good" (Speaking from a purely D&D Alignment complex.). But, they can be not evil. Opression and Brutality are *bad* things, once again, it is however the context in which they are used that matters. Bane is evil, now, his followers may not all be evil, but by helping him, they support evil, Yes, you can have an Unaligned Character who worships Bane, but you *cannot* have a good one, unless he is a complete Moron. High Fantasy villains don't always believe they are evil, they don't always accept and realize they are evil, some of them think they are right and justified. Bane is one of them.
If we are talking in Moral compass rules in the real world however, you have to understand one thing. The Real World, is Amoral and Unbiased, earth doesn't care what you do or how you do to other people, it doesn't care why you do it. Morality in our reality is defined by us, and as such is subject to opinion, culture and history. And where Vlad Dracul (Tepes If you prefer) is a perfect example of someone considered morally evil by the majority, and a hero (Or good if you will) by the minority.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 08, 2009 - 5:00PM
#416
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That does not make it right "The End Justifies the Means" is *not* a morally "good" ideal, it is an inherently negative ideal. He was villified because he did things that were not nescesarry, to make points and to achieve goals, he can be looked at as a hero in a single place in the world.
Hitler is a Hero as well to Nazi's, yes? Would you call him a good man?
A Dictator and a Tyrant are two very different things, but you *can* have Tyrants who are not evil, they can't be "good" (Speaking from a purely D&D Alignment complex.). But, they can be not evil. Opression and Brutality are *bad* things, once again, it is however the context in which they are used that matters. Bane is evil, now, his followers may not all be evil, but by helping him, they support evil, Yes, you can have an Unaligned Character who worships Bane, but you *cannot* have a good one, unless he is a complete Moron. High Fantasy villains don't always believe they are evil, they don't always accept and realize they are evil, some of them think they are right and justified. Bane is one of them.
If we are talking in Moral compass rules in the real world however, you have to understand one thing. The Real World, is Amoral and Unbiased, earth doesn't care what you do or how you do to other people, it doesn't care why you do it. Morality in our reality is defined by us, and as such is subject to opinion, culture and history. And where Vlad Dracul (Tepes If you prefer) is a perfect example of someone considered morally evil by the majority, and a hero (Or good if you will) by the minority.
Did you honestly compare Romanians to Nazis? Really?! You really want to go there and claim that a culture of eastern Europeans is equitable to a fascist cult of racists?
First off, the majority of the world is basing their information on Tepes on propaganda created by his enemies, and not on actual history itself. The catholic church published papers on him drinking blood, raping women for fun, torturing children, and killing people just because... solely so they could get religious zealots to march on him. These documents are what modern depictions of the guy are based on, including Bram Stoker's Dracula. Just because the majority vilifies him doesn't make the majority right. Many religions vilify the Jewish people... does that make those of the Hebrew faith evil? The majority of the world hates the United States... does that make the U.S. evil? Argumentum ad Populum is a poor way to hold your argument.
Secondly, there is no reason that you couldn't have a good character who worships Bane. In fact, the recent Bane article makes it rather clear that it is a possibility, while the core rules themselves dictate that it is A-okay. So apparently, all legitimate sources agree that you are very, very wrong.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 08, 2009 - 5:15PM
#417
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Actually no. He staked his OWN criminals to freak out the Turkish army, not people.
A quick look on wikipedia confirms that he impaled turkish prisoners.
Seems some people have him build up as a much bigger monster then he actually was.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 08, 2009 - 5:22PM
#418
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A quick look on wikipedia confirms that he impaled turkish prisoners.
Seems some people have him build up as a much bigger monster then he actually was.
Exactly (albeit he did also stake his own criminals). The largest portion of info that people have on Vlad Tepes is propaganda from the Catholic Church intended to demonize him in order to assist in his deposition. It failed, but that doesn't stop the libel from continuing to be spread as truth and effectively turn him into the monster that people seem to think he is in the modern day (it's like those email messages with the fake rumors that people start spreading as truth, from several hundred years ago).
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4 years ago ::
Apr 08, 2009 - 5:26PM
#419
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Well, impaling enough people for it to be called a 'Forest' and so that it scares the hell out of hardened turkish soldier isn't exactly something 'good' in and out of itself. Keep in mind that impaling is an extremely painful process and it takes you a long time to die from it.
But it'd have been much worse had those people actually been HIS people, instead of his enemies.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 08, 2009 - 5:28PM
#420
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But it'd have been much worse had those people actually been HIS people, instead of his enemies.
So "evil unto evil" isn't evil??
D&D 4E Herald and M:tG Rules Advisor I expect posters to follow the Code of Conduct, use Basic Etiquette, and avoid Poor Logic. If you don't follow these guidelines, I consider you to be disrespectful to everyone on these forums. If you respond to me without following these guidelines, I consider it a personal attack. I grew up in a bilingual household, which means I am familiar with the difficulties in adopting a different vocabulary and grammar. That doesn't bother me. Persistent use of bad capitalization, affirming the consequent, and flaming bother me a great deal. Rule that I would change: 204.1b
Show
204.1b Some effects change an object’s card type, supertype, or subtype but specify that the object retains a prior card type, supertype, or subtype. In such cases, all the object’s prior card types, supertypes, and subtypes are retained. This rule applies to effects that use the phrase “in addition to its types” or that state that something is “still a [card type].” Some effects state that an object becomes an “artifact creature”; these effects also allow the object to retain all of its prior card types and subtypes.
"Eight Edition Rules Update"
We eventually decided not to change this template, because players are used to “becomes an artifact creature,” and like it much better. Players were used to Combat on the Stack, but you got rid of that because it was unintuitive. The only phrase needed is "in addition to its types"; the others are misleading and unintuitive.
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