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4 years ago ::
Mar 18, 2009 - 11:11AM
#421
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Date Joined:
Sep 30, 2007
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In a few years someone one will make PunPun 4E, there have already been some pretty major holes in the rules that had to be patch with errata. On top of all that there are now going to be powers that you can only get via Miniatures boxes so as a DM keeping up is going to be a major wallet drainer. In one year there have been 5 added books plus all the new dragon magazine stuff. The potential for a PunPun goes up with each new supplement and trust me the "Optimization" guys are all over it.
I'm going to tell you that there will never be a punpun. Punpun was a god at 4th level. I'm not saying that it cannot happen in 4e, but the system is so exposed that everybody and their blind mother would see the problem before it hit the books. I can see some things blurring the line in the future, but only at level 30... which is epic. People-balancing-on-clouds epic.
Powers in miniatures boxes? You have any idea how dumb that is? The people at wizards might be crazy, but what in the world would they gain from that? Has any other industry tried that? Games Workshop is the undisputed kings of draining money from their customers and they wouldn't be so stupid as to try that. There would be nothing to gain. You just plucked that idea out of your head because you think it would be terrible and it doesn't stretch your imagination of what WotC is capable of. Besides, like you said, they already have the Dragon magazine outlet which sells you small bits of content under the guise of news and other information.
Anyway, Punpun was only possible because 3.5 had a bunch of different systems that went completely crazy when you tried to mix them. Didn't he rely pretty heavily on essentia and psionics?
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4 years ago ::
Mar 18, 2009 - 11:12AM
#422
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2006
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I do not remember optimization on the scale it was in 3.x in 1st and 2nd edition. Optimization to me seems to have hit high gear when MMOs started to get popular, and people where looking to optimize there MMO characters and that really spilled over into the Pen and Paper games. Most players i have played with do things because it make sense for the background and type of character they wanted to play, not because it gave them a couple extra points of damage.
Yes, it's all MMOs fault, nothing to do with the internet at all.  .
If anything I say is wrong, clueless or spelt incorrectly, it is because, I am, in general, wrong, clueless and... Well, I'm usually spelt correctly.
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4 years ago ::
Mar 18, 2009 - 11:16AM
#423
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Yes, it's all MMOs fault, nothing to do with the internet at all. .
I am sure the internet played a roll in it, I guess I assumed that referring to an MMO implied the use of the internet.
as a side note, the internet was around before 3.5 came out, it might not have been as widely used but it was around. Can you find any second edition optimization pages?
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4 years ago ::
Mar 18, 2009 - 11:17AM
#424
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Date Joined:
Sep 28, 2006
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Anyway, Punpun was only possible because 3.5 had a bunch of different systems that went completely crazy when you tried to mix them. Didn't he rely pretty heavily on essentia and psionics?
Pun Pun's final design ascended at level 1 using only 2 non core rules. The FR monster that granted that BS ability, and the Fiendish Codex Dude that gave you a wish if you sold your soul to him. Wish for a candle of invocation to gain it's gate power. After that it was gate cheese for the infinite wishes (core) to get infinite wealth. Then Shapechange (in all it's broken glory) to gain the cheat power from the FR monster. Grab a familiar to help you out, and then win.
Well... At least we got custom avatars....
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4 years ago ::
Mar 18, 2009 - 11:19AM
#425
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Powers in miniatures boxes? You have any idea how dumb that is? The people at wizards might be crazy, but what in the world would they gain from that? Has any other industry tried that? Games Workshop is the undisputed kings of draining money from their customers and they wouldn't be so stupid as to try that. There would be nothing to gain. You just plucked that idea out of your head because you think it would be terrible and it doesn't stretch your imagination of what WotC is capable of. Besides, like you said, they already have the Dragon magazine outlet which sells you small bits of content under the guise of news and other information.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=pr … 0786952755
Each booster pack contains 3 visible, high-quality, non-random plastic miniatures representing D&D player characters, plus an exclusive power card not available elsewhere! Each miniature comes beautifully painted and fully assembled.
emphasis mine...
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4 years ago ::
Mar 18, 2009 - 11:23AM
#426
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Really? You are saying that if someone finds a rule that can be abused they should abuse it?
Who is abusing Trip?
pervert: change the inherent purpose or function of something; (I don't know how they can pervert the rules)
use wrongly or improperly or excessively; (if the tactic is effective, you cannot use it excessively)
If you can Disintegrate a target, then punching it in the face is a bad idea.
EVERY Squad training lesson I've been given has been to maximize my squad's advantage, and to minimize my enemy's advantage. Sun Tzu says the same thing in the famous "Art of War". If you are close to your enemy, make him think you are far away. If you are far away, make your enemy think you are close.
If your strategy is to knock your opponents prone, you should do everything you can to become better at doing so.
D&D 4E Herald and M:tG Rules Advisor I expect posters to follow the Code of Conduct, use Basic Etiquette, and avoid Poor Logic. If you don't follow these guidelines, I consider you to be disrespectful to everyone on these forums. If you respond to me without following these guidelines, I consider it a personal attack. I grew up in a bilingual household, which means I am familiar with the difficulties in adopting a different vocabulary and grammar. That doesn't bother me. Persistent use of bad capitalization, affirming the consequent, and flaming bother me a great deal. Rule that I would change: 204.1b
Show
204.1b Some effects change an object’s card type, supertype, or subtype but specify that the object retains a prior card type, supertype, or subtype. In such cases, all the object’s prior card types, supertypes, and subtypes are retained. This rule applies to effects that use the phrase “in addition to its types” or that state that something is “still a [card type].” Some effects state that an object becomes an “artifact creature”; these effects also allow the object to retain all of its prior card types and subtypes.
"Eight Edition Rules Update"
We eventually decided not to change this template, because players are used to “becomes an artifact creature,” and like it much better. Players were used to Combat on the Stack, but you got rid of that because it was unintuitive. The only phrase needed is "in addition to its types"; the others are misleading and unintuitive.
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4 years ago ::
Mar 18, 2009 - 11:28AM
#427
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I'm going to tell you that there will never be a punpun. Punpun was a god at 4th level. I'm not saying that it cannot happen in 4e, but the system is so exposed that everybody and their blind mother would see the problem before it hit the books. I can see some things blurring the line in the future, but only at level 30... which is epic. People-balancing-on-clouds epic.
how about level 15??
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1044241
read the thread for "Cascade of blades" goodness, and there is now a barbarian power in the PH2 with the same problem.
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4 years ago ::
Mar 18, 2009 - 11:29AM
#428
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Date Joined:
Sep 30, 2007
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I am sure the internet played a roll in it, I guess I assumed that referring to an MMO implied the use of the internet.
as a side note, the internet was around before 3.5 came out, it might not have been as widely used but it was around. Can you find any second edition optimization pages?
No. MMOs didn't invent optimization. Ever since ever, people have tried to get the most bang for their buck. The internet (not MMOs that people like you keep trying to demonize) created an online community that expanded the scope of every player and allowed the best and brightest to exchange strategies like never before.
In any case, I'm going call you crazy because you've decided that optimization spawned from MMOs as if MMOs weren't just a natural evolution of the nerd culture.
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4 years ago ::
Mar 18, 2009 - 11:30AM
#429
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EVERY Squad training lesson I've been given has been to maximize my squad's advantage, and to minimize my enemy's advantage. Sun Tzu says the same thing in the famous "Art of War". If you are close to your enemy, make him think you are far away. If you are far away, make your enemy think you are close.
If your strategy is to knock your opponents prone, you should do everything you can to become better at doing so.
but your army squad training does not center around playing a game with 4 friends so everyone can have a good time, laugh and have some snacks...
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4 years ago ::
Mar 18, 2009 - 11:30AM
#430
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Yes, it's all MMOs fault, nothing to do with the internet at all. .
Yeah, I remember infinte damage loop cheese and other forms of munchkining from the old rpg.org boards long before EQ or AC were created.
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