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Switch to Forum Live View Sorry WotC: No More Books Till 5e For Me
5 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2008 - 1:10PM #1
Warweaver
Date Joined: Dec 13, 2006
Posts: 2,407
I've thought about writing this for a long time. I've read through all the sourcebook offerings to date, followed activity on this site and elsewhere, run and played in a bunch of 4e games so far. And I think this is the right time to say I can't give you any more of my money, WotC.

I thought about carefully organizing and listing my grievances and disappointments, but I can already hear the angry cries of me wasting my fellow forumites' time. And I do think most of the people here are worthy of respect, part of a hobby that promotes creativity, passion, and imagination - so I'm going to keep it short and hit the high points.

I don't like what D&D has become, I don't like how you've handled it, and I don't like where it's going. It's not that I think it's a bad game, and I know you worked hard on it. I'm glad that there are players out there who do enjoy it and think it has improved the hobby more than it's hurt it.

I just can't get excited about it. It feels like a pale shadow of what I wanted 4e to be, and it's not what I want out of my D&D. I think you listened a little too intently to those who clamored for balance, to be honest, and sacrificed too much in attaining it. I'm a fan of many options, and I think too many were lost or made uninteresting.

The "it's a movie and the PCs are the stars" tack 4e has taken, with increased abstractions and focus on either carefully channeled mechanics (i.e. combat) or DM fiat in other situations to "get back to the action", just doesn't mesh with the living, breathing campaign worlds I like to play and DM in, though I'm sure other people like it.

There are many improvements made in 4e, and I am glad to see it progressing along those paths. For each improvement I see though, I notice something that was either made worse or (more commonly) tossed by the wayside as "unworkable", rather than taking the time to perfect what might have merit. But I understand you are a business and can't always afford spending forever in R&D, just as I understand the tools I like for my games are not universal.

This is why, all of the above I can forgive, even though it's the reason I'm prefer the previous edition (with its many flaws requiring houserules). But I don't think you've handled 4e all that well either, and I'd like to help point out where you could improve so that you have input for the future.

The three core books, the only 4e books I own and ever plan to, have become badly smudged in places due to the poor quality ink. They are also scribbled all over in red with me keeping up with the errata, sometimes replacing entire sections (like Stealth). I very much appreciate how responsive you've been with those errata updates - but I think it would do wonders for your customer goodwill if later books don't require so much of it to function - and that you are more careful in the future about what printers you used.

I know you're now printing core with updates included and better ink, and I applaud it - but it doesn't really help me. My books are going to become unusable at some point due to blurring, and I'm not buying new ones due to someone else's mistake.

DDI is a problem. It is damaging to your customers to make promises or generate buzz you can't back, and even moreso to avoid admitting you screwed up out of some fear of showing weakness. Showing your customers a human side and that you're willing to improve and make amends can have surprising results.

I am just fine with paying for your online material, but I am not fine with the amount you're charging, especially when it is more like a beta than a finished product. I was hoping you would learn from Magic Online that making people pay the same price for bits on a server that they do for physical, tangible product is a bad idea. Also by your own admission it is a set of "bonus tools" for D&D, not part of the primary experience itself - so why you are charging as much as an MMO (complete unto itself), I can't fathom.

Some people may be willing to pay your price...but even then, it has to do what you've said it will. If you feel out of your league, know you have a vast pool of potential employees that often land on the "tech savvy" end of society.

Finally, I can never agree with how you changed Forgotten Realms, or more particularly, the manner in which you went about it. Forcing a self-described "stand-alone campaign setting" to conform to core defeats the purpose of a unique setting, and much was changed or removed that either caused more confusion to the settings' existing fans or simply subtracted more than it added (as I said, I'm a fan of options).

In general it seems like you went into this edition with the goal "let's make 4th edition ours!" While there is nothing wrong with that sentiment on the surface, in Forgotten Realms doing it without regard to existing customers' opinions, without clear goals, or without seriously examining the ramifications was a mistake.

So let's recap:

Personal Dislikes:
1) balance obsession,
2) unexciting,
3) "like a movie" design philosophy,
4) loss of varied options.

Mostly (but not 100%) Objective Dislikes:
1) first release quality,
2) DDI problems,
3) FR treatment.

Again, I'm not saying 4th edition is a bad game - it is just the nature of this thread to critique the negatives. Despite the many improvements it has made, I consider these factors to outweigh the positives. I will still be playing 4e - but only because friends of mine are running a game. I am playing to enjoy their company in their chosen tabletop rpg, not for the system itself.

I'm not saying my opinion can't change either. It's just that out of the offerings I've read so far, I don't see anything that would make it change. Editions often get better as they become more fleshed out, and maybe 4e will catch up to my expectations. From what I have seen so far and my estimation of its trends, however, I don't foresee this taking place.

So for now, I won't be buying any more 4e books - but I will keep an eye out for something that may change my mind. I am glad you are working towards expanding our shared hobby, and I hope you get even more creative with your products in the years to come!

Until then, I hope you file this wherever you keep your customer feedback (even if just in your head)...maybe glance at it six years from now for 5e.

And to the rest of you - I can't believe you read this whole thing! Congrats? And enjoy whichever edition you choose.

* * * * *

EDIT: Due to positive feedback, here is a snippet of me further explaining my position later in this thread - click the little arrow to go there.

Warweaver wrote:

To make a really bad analogy, I like playing with Legos more than modeling clay. If you make a sculpture out of modeling clay, others can Ooo and Aaah at it, but they really have no idea what you did to get there. With Legos, anyone (given enough time) can reproduce your work - you've done something creative that still conforms to the ruleset everyone understands.

To think outside the box, you first need a box.


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5 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2008 - 1:14PM #2
Exposed_Wires
Date Joined: Sep 30, 2007
Posts: 2,193

Warweaver wrote:

I've thought about writing this for a long time....


While I loved discussing things with you, this post is a complete waste of your time.

Upon review,

Personal Dislikes:
1) balance obsession,
2) unexciting,
3) "like a movie" design philosophy,


These things, and I mean it in the nicest most polite way possible, are in your head. These things only exist in your attitude towards the game.

FR thing is totally legit, though.

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5 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2008 - 1:17PM #3
10_Foot_Pole
Date Joined: Apr 24, 2008
Posts: 272

Warweaver wrote:

And to the rest of you - I can't believe you read this whole thing! Congrats? And enjoy whichever edition you choose.


I skimmed until I saw there was a Cliff's Notes halfway through.

They still don't have a smiley beating a dead horse, so you'll just have to put up with this one: :whatsthis

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5 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2008 - 1:18PM #4
Crimson_Lancer
Date Joined: Jun 18, 2003
Posts: 6,546
LOL. Getting stuff off your chest isn't a waste of time, Wires. It makes you feel better in the long run.

Sorry it's just not right for you, Weaver, and I'm really sorry for how they trashed the Realms (I don't even look at it anymore). I hope they release something soon that's so amazing you can ignore all of the glaring annoyances and WotC's handling of the Edition in general. It's probably not all that realistic of a hope, but we'll see.



EDIT: To the people about to turn on their Flamethrowers: Back off. I harp about Trolls not giving me the respect I deserve for putting so much effort into my posts, and if you can't respect Weaver for expressing himself in a polite and intelligent manner, then you have no reason to post in this Thread.
Resident Logic Cannon
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5 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2008 - 1:19PM #5
Warweaver
Date Joined: Dec 13, 2006
Posts: 2,407

Exposed_Wires wrote:

While I loved discussing things with you, this post is a complete waste of your time.


Probably. I was trying to organize my thoughts, but I guess I failed in trying to do that and send a message. I suppose a more point-by-point examination of 4e problems/plusses would be more helpful to WotC, but really, aren't there a million-bajillion of those threads already? I was trying to go for the more macrocosmic view... *shrug*

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5 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2008 - 1:22PM #6
Exposed_Wires
Date Joined: Sep 30, 2007
Posts: 2,193

Warweaver wrote:

Probably. I was trying to organize my thoughts, but I guess I failed in trying to do that and send a message. I suppose a more point-by-point examination of 4e problems/plusses would be more helpful to WotC, but really, aren't there a million-bajillion of those threads already? I was trying to go for the more macrocosmic view... *shrug*


Meh, crimson makes a good point. It's probably not a waste of your time. You should express your feelings. I just really don't like the 'suicide note' format of many of these posts.

I should just be thankful that you didn't start with "Dear Wotc,".

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5 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2008 - 1:28PM #7
Ogiwan
Date Joined: Jun 16, 2004
Posts: 3,120
There is that. I mean, I hope you do enjoy your games, but i don't see the point of many of these posts, aside from giving a place for trolls to....roost? Flame? Gnaw? Troll? I guess troll would be the best word, but I'm just loathe to use the same word twice....

(Wait, so if Trolls troll, do sheep sheep?)
Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid
Copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade."
"Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall,
"But Iron -- Cold Iron -- is master of them all."
-Kipling

Defenders: We ARE the wall!

I've replaced the previous Edition Warring line in my sig with this one, because honestly, everybody needs to work together to make the D&D they like without trampling on somebody else's D&D.

Miss d20 Modern? Take a look at Dias Ex Machina Game's UltraModern 4e!

Aug 16, 2012 -- 1:44AM, Undrhil wrote:

I am a hero, not a chump.

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5 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2008 - 1:28PM #8
Manion
Date Joined: Jun 19, 2008
Posts: 2,109
I like what happened to Forgotten Realms. And despite the common belief, I also liked the Realms before.

Honestly, nothing can be done to the Realms as bad as what 2e did. Killing Bhaal and Myrkul Though it made for fascinating stories.

Though Wild Magic was kind of awesome.
The Bruce Campbell of D&D.
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5 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2008 - 1:29PM #9
Crimson_Lancer
Date Joined: Jun 18, 2003
Posts: 6,546

Ogiwan wrote:

(Wait, so if Trolls troll, do sheep sheep?)


Yes, and the resemblance between the two is uncanny!

Resident Logic Cannon
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5 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2008 - 1:34PM #10
Warweaver
Date Joined: Dec 13, 2006
Posts: 2,407

Crimson Lancer wrote:

I hope they release something soon that's so amazing you can ignore all of the glaring annoyances and WotC's handling of the Edition in general. It's probably not all that realistic of a hope, but we'll see.


Thanks CL, I hope so too - if nothing else I've informed WotC they'll have 1 more customer if they 'kick it up a notch'. Bam. Maybe not realistic, but I do love surprises. :P

10_Foot_Pole: We might not agree on much, but your name is awesome.

This thread might not accomplish much, but it was just something I had to do I guess. At the least, I won't be posting any more of these - my view, generalized as it is in that post, is here and here alone. I'll only bring it up elsewhere if it's part of an active debate.

Instead, I'll return to what I'm better at - debating intelligently and civilly about the game we all love, trying to lead by example in not being an a$$hat. Usually...we all have our off days, after all.

Ogiwan wrote:

There is that. I mean, I hope you do enjoy your games, but i don't see the point of many of these posts, aside from giving a place for trolls to....roost? Flame? Gnaw? Troll?


Good point, I don't mean for this to be a troll...er...nesting ground?

Maybe it can be a troll roach motel! "They check in, but they don't check out." I'll see if I can hook up some sort of device that roasts them in their own flames...

Manion wrote:

Though Wild Magic was kind of awesome.


Indeed! If only 4e had a d100 table so suicidal/awesome! Seriously, in 2e you were lucky if you made it to 5th level as a Wild Mage...I had some good times, heh.

EDIT: Not to sound unfair, but 4e seems like its version of wild magic would just have you roll a d4 and get between -/+2 to an attack 1/encounter (as per DMG p.42). But again, I'd love to be proven wrong. :P

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