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As far as breaking systems. It becomes increasingly easy to do as more material is released. 4e will be a little more resilient to this effect do its template classes/powers system, but not immune.

3.0/3.5 was also very difficult to break with just the PHB as well. It wasn't really until you had a bajillion PRCs and feats that the loopholes really started to climb up there. 4e IMO will also have loopholes and broken bits.

But thats were reality comes into play. Your groups will realize what is cheap and what lessens the fun for the group as a whole, and will hopefully move away from those things.

If your group doesn't want crazy you can't pass the save orbizards then don't let them come to be in your games . The same can be said for any "broken" power/class/feature/combination in any edition.

I think its moot to argue which is edition is more "broken" as one is complete and the other is still working on its first birthday. I would love to have this conversation about comparisons and editions and 3.0 vs. 4.0, but I will wait until I have 5.0 and 4.0 is done and gone before I would feel comfortable making a wholesale comparison between the two editions as to which is more broken.

As it stands now 4.e is much less broken as it has much less material then 3.e. I think the ratio powercreep in the first few releases that had player options is similar to the first few of 3.0. But thats just my opinion and I am not willing to play the dissection combat forum argument game about it.

I do however in the vein of keeping things on topic feel that 4.e is more board gamey than previous editions. I am int he camp that doesn't mind it terribly as it is very new and shiney and if they can keep new and shiney material coming out then being a board game won't hinder the game that much.

love,

malkav

Cpt_Micha wrote:

Actually 3e was broken right out of the gate.

Clerics and Druids anyone? Wizards?

The Sorcerer?

All of which were broken.

Just the other three made the Sorcerer look tame.

at level 1?

Cpt_Micha wrote:

Cleric especially. Cleric has fighter armor, same fighting capability, and near same durability plus casting? Yes please.

Wizards and Sorc's were broken on the other end of the scale at level one.

But yes 3e was broken using just the phb period. All it needed to be broken was to have the power to get 9th level spellcasting.

So does the cleric in 4e

And I am not saying 3.e is better than 4.e of vice versa or defending or target. Just saying the broken is relative. Orbizards are broken at higher levels too but that does not make me think the whole system is bad.

I am just one of the posters that likes D&D in general. I like 3.x or I would not have spent thousands of dollars on it. I like 4.e as well its what my group is currently playing. But just because 4.e is a new and great system, it does not automatically make 3.x suck in my eyes. It definitely does have its good points and I cannot wait to see how they handle some of them in 4.e context.


love,

malkav

Cpt_Micha wrote:

But the 4e Fighter is actually competent now and the Cleric's God Powers have been taken away from him and replaced with much weaker versions of their previous selves. The Cleric isn't better than everyone now. Where as Before you'd be a Moron to not be a Cleric.

To get technical with you the cleric and the fighter both underwent some changes. In 3.x the cleric could not hit as hard as a fighter (had a worse BAB, less HP, worse WP) whereas the fighter had the best BAB, better weapon options, and more feats.

In 4e the more of equalized them. They all have the same BAB and the same chances to hit with their abilities, and they all have spells now (or abilities if you wish to call them that)

I would say if anything they just made the fighter play more like the 3.x cleric as opposed to actually "fixing" a broken cleric. But thats just my own feelings on it. I'm in love with the new fighters for the time being and having a good bit of fun with them, so while I disagree you that 3.x was broken at lvl 1, I do agree that 4.e did the fighter class in particular very well (if you weren't trying to state that, then I apologize for my misinterpretation).

love,

malkav