Community

Lazzo wrote:

Well maybe that's a matter of an opinion too then. I've played them all though and I just can't see it no matter how I try. The basic simple melee attacking, hit dice, hit point system, spell system, saving throws, variable BAB... have always been there. The evolution has mainly been with class balance and fiddling around with non-weapon proficiensies, feats, skill tricks and other secondary bolt ons.

*edit*
Besides, how many gazillion posts have there been people saying I love 4th and hate the old/I love the old and hate 4th? How can they be similar if so many like them so differently?

I don't know. But if a gazillion posts and complaints over the internet suggest that there are no similarities between 3e and 4e, then there was also no similarities between AD&D and 3e. The exact same atmosphere of complaint was present when AD&D made the switch to 3e (and, I am told, when D&D upgraded to AD&D, though I did not witness that change first hand).

Me, personally, I see how 4e evolved out of 3e. I see the similarities, and the differences. Both exist. There are now powers, which is sort of new in its format. But, before, there were still class abilities... and feats, like powers in 4e, were brand new to 3e. The game still uses a d20 mechanic. THACO turned into BAB in 3e, which got replaced with a flat bonus to attack by level in 4e. AD&D players options added non combat skills, and skill points. They tried this method in 3e. It was a bit needlessly complex, and got replaced with a untrained/trained/focused mechanic for 4e. Is 4e different? Yes. Does it still come out of previous D&D products? As much so as 3e came out of previous D&D products. Is it a better system of mechanics? In my opinion yes.

HaoryHoe is dopplegangster, which is why I stuck him strait on my ignore list with the first post of his I read. To be honest, I don't know how he is not banned with a name like that. I am considering reporting him on the primes of his name alone.

The link in his sig is directly analogues to the type of arguments anti 4e posters make about 4e. And, minor grievances? Do you know how many people moaned about the loss of THAC0? About how 3e was nothing but D&D for the "diablo generation"? About how feats looked like something out of a video game? (Sound a little like the 4e, and its power system, is like WoW argument to you? Because, it does to me.) And no, not everyone "very quickly realized that "BAB was like THAC0 but with simpler notation. Many grognards "left D&D," by which I mean they never purchased 3e and kept playing AD&D. In other words, what he pointed out is that your comment about the "gazillion posts" proves nothing. When 3e was initially released, the same atmosphere of complaint was present. You say "the writer did not even know 3e rules," and most of us pro 4e readers feel the same way about the anti 4e posters when we read what they post. There is no difference between that post, or the anti 4e posts that are going up now, except that that post is about 3e.

As for what you remember, if you don't remember anti 3e dissent when it was released, either you were not actively participating in the online D&D community at the time, you were very lucky to only be participating in elements of the online D&D community that somehow escaped the edition war that was raging over most of the rest of the internet, or you have very selective memory.

People coming onto the 4e forums to post anti 4e comments and then claim that 3e is amazing are participating in BS. There is nothing wrong with preferring an older edition. There is nothing wrong with saying so in boards dedicated to that older edition. But coming onto the 4e forums, when you have no intent to ever take part in 4e, and you only want to spew anti 4e hate, is BS. That sort of BS happened when 3e was released, and then died. That sort of BS is happening now, has already started to die down, and will also eventually disappear. I'm not saying you participate in this sort of BS Lazzo (you are not on my ignore list, so I have not seen you do so yet)... but people like PsionX, Dopplegangster, ClinkZ, and On the wings of TPK all have. Most of us who have made the transition to 4e, and love the new edition, are a little sick of hearing BS from people who "don't know the 4e rules" any better than that poster in Cimson Lancers sig knew 3e rules.

P.S. I just want to point out, coming to learn that "BAB is just a simpler notation of THAC0" is as simple of an understanding as coming to understand that "powers" are just a simpler notation of class abilities, or that the unified class bonus to hit based on level is just a simpler notation of BAB. The difference is that you (the "proverbial" you, not you as in you specifically Lazzo) don't seem to be able to see that, while those of us who love 4e can. In other words, there is no difference in relation between those who like 4e and can notice how these elements of 4e are just simpler notation and those who can't seem to get a grasp on this, and the similar relation between posters in the thread Lancer linked.

Lazzo wrote:

Again, everything except skill checks is done with powers. So it's safe to say they're the most defining mechanic of 4th. Nothing like it existed in D&D before. In every edition before the core mechanics have been the same. Simple attack roll. Spells known, spells memorized, spell lists. Hit Dice. And a lot more.

And from my vantage point, your are wrong. Powers are pretty much the same as class powers. Hell, back in the days of AD&D, virtually everything was done with class powers. Even abilities like stealth, climbing, disabling traps, were class powers. Simple attack roll? You mean roll a d20, add modifiers, and try and hit over a targets armor class? Or do you mean the convoluted THAC0 table? Because, those two mechanics are just as related to each other as 4e roll to hit is related to 3e roll to hit. Indeed, 3e and 4e are actually more similar in this regard than 3e was to THAC0. Spells known? So, you mean like the wizards spells known, which he still has in 4e? Spells memorized, you mean like the wizard still memorizes spells after his daily rest? Spell lists, like the spell casting classes power lists? Hit dice? So, hit points gained per level? Hell, AD&D actually did grant a flat number of hit points gained per level after a certain level. And, to be honest, I always house ruled away rolling hit dice and used flat hit points gained per level. Its not really fair to penalize someone, permanently, for random chance (in my opinion). The point? Once again, 4e is as relational to 3e with these mechanics as 3e was relational to AD&D. The question is, will you admit it (even if you don't like the new game), or will you close your eyes and scream "no they are different," just like those posters once did about 3e (which you can clearly see is not so different from AD&D, at least from your vantage point)?

Now I've not said about which is better, because edition wars are forbidden in this forum. I'm not even saying if change is good or bad. I'm saying 4th has changed fundamentally and entirely unlike 1st, 2nd and 3rd. And since I hugely prefer the old D&D way I'm dissapointed that it will no longer continue to develop but has been killed and replaced. That, and the fact that me and others were basically tricked in to buying the books thinking it was still the same game.

Many people hugely preferred the old AD&D way of doing things, and they were hugely disappointed that those products would no longer be printed. Sucks for you, I know. But sometimes a products market moves away from certain marginal members who enjoyed earlier incarnations of that product. Like you said before, "Naturally it's impossible to please everyone all the time." The point? You got your 3e, you have tons of printed 3e books, and you can still play it. You got that at the cost of the "death of AD&D." Who are you to be upset that the majority of the player base can now gain the same joy from 4e, even if that means that you will not get any new 3e books? Your pleasure came at the cost of the cannibalization of an older edition. I think you owe it to the community to be a little more understanding when their pleasure comes with a similar cost. Sucks that this time the cost will have to be payed by you... maybe with 5th edition the cost will be payed by me.