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5 years ago ::
Jul 02, 2008 - 1:50PM
#31
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Careful. Appealing to reason around here can be dangerous.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 02, 2008 - 1:54PM
#32
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Date Joined:
Apr 17, 2008
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DaidojiTaidoru You are the man. Thank you.
Karanth, what is awesome about said illusionists is that's the abilities they have. What makes you what you are is the powers / spells you have at your disposal. What makes you better at illusions you ask? The fact that you have them. Do you think the blaster's blaster is going to have them? No. But you do. Thus you're an illusionist.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 02, 2008 - 4:52PM
#33
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Date Joined:
Nov 17, 2003
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Granted I'd have much rather seen the illusionist than the warlock, but that doesn't mean 4E is a bad game, only that you can't do everything in 4E that you could with 3.5 + 8 years worth of supplements. But that really shouldn't have shocked anyone. The PHB can only hold so much information after all.
This is very true and expected. Unfortunately, it is equally true that the diminished number of options is affecting my group's enjoyment of 4e.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 02, 2008 - 5:28PM
#34
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Date Joined:
Oct 16, 2007
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This is very true and expected. Unfortunately, it is equally true that the diminished number of options is affecting my group's enjoyment of 4e.
What do they want to play that doesn't seem to fit? I'm asking honestly; I'm perfectly willing to lend some creativity in order to help flesh out conversions.
A character class is a sterotype..archetypical even. There is no illusionist class...and the wizard "class" is what fail would look like if it were given written form.
And the statement "Its all still there" made me laugh so hard i think i dislocated a rib.
I'm pretty sure fail is what "fail" looks like given written form. The wizard, by contrast, is so far the only controller class in 4e. It does a good job of restricting and forcing movement, as well as AOE damage and a number of debuffs.
You're not really addressing the OP, though. What are your thoughts on roleplaying in 4e, or on the elevation of tactical options over narrative concerns?
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5 years ago ::
Jul 02, 2008 - 5:38PM
#35
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Date Joined:
Aug 28, 2005
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I feel like this illusionist thing is getting out of hand and may in fact be off-topic if what we're supposed to be discussing is RPing with 4E. That may sound weird since it was brought up in the OP, but I feel like the two topics are completely unrelated and that the whole illusionist bit should be made a different topic (judging from the topic's title, that is...). Now, I don't know how much this helps, but somebody posted this topic over in the Character Development board: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1053434The challenge proposed by the thread was basically:
Show interesting characters (at any level), based around a concept rather than a set of abilities, with Abilities that are effected by roleplaying choices. I really want to see as many as possible.[/quote]
As anybody can see from the thread's numerous responses and the Topic Creator's eventual concession, 4E is just as open to RPing as any previous edition. 4E's only "problem" is that we only have the three core books right now, and so we can't play obscure class #76 from Series Book #5 out of 12...
As for the whole illusionist bit, DaidojiTaidoru pretty much covered it. The illusionist is still possible in 4E core, and even if it's not exactly what you want, I'm sure more will come out for it eventually. You can't blame WotC for not being able to put EVERY SINGLE THING that was in 3.5 into 4E right off the bat...
Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TMSpeaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
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5 years ago ::
Jul 02, 2008 - 6:16PM
#36
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Date Joined:
Nov 17, 2003
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What do they want to play that doesn't seem to fit? I'm asking honestly; I'm perfectly willing to lend some creativity in order to help flesh out conversions.
It is not a matter of being able to craft a character in line with one's concept. Rather, when a character raises a level, they have a choice of one of 3-5 options, all of which are heavily geared toward the class's combat role. The only choices outside of this framework are feats, which have been significantly de-empowered.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 02, 2008 - 7:05PM
#37
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Date Joined:
Jan 22, 2008
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It is still very possible to make flavourful characters in 4e. Roleplaying has never been dependent on mechanics. Our party has a spoiled princess who has no clue about the "real" world, but is a very intelligent scholar type (race class is human wizard) a warforged who has been working as a beat cop and has decided to adventure out of bordom and lack of anything better to do (warforged fighter) a paladin of bahumut who is the princess long suffering body guard and mentor, a gambler who doesnt even cary visible weapons (human rogue) a tiefling who is adventuring out of necessity who made a pact with fey beings to help her family and is trying to find her place in the world, but who is very uncertain of herself at times (my character tiefling fey pact lock). A mysterious elf whose backstory I dont know who is also a cleric of the raven queen, playing up the whole mysterious being. And a human ranger who spends most of his time drunk. In our sessions so far we have not had a problem with role playing. In fact page 42 has the guidlines for any crazy stunt you could possibly try.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 02, 2008 - 8:37PM
#38
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It is still very possible to make flavourful characters in 4e. Roleplaying has never been dependent on mechanics.
QFE. Outside games with specific RP mechanics (CoH, Exalted, Unknown Armies, etc.), storytelling has always been decoupled from mechanics. The primary use for rules is for resolving conflicts. 4E has skill-based encounters for those which don't revolve around getting stabby-stabby.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 02, 2008 - 9:39PM
#39
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Date Joined:
Feb 21, 2007
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QFE. Outside games with specific RP mechanics (CoH, Exalted, Unknown Armies, etc.), storytelling has always been decoupled from mechanics. The primary use for rules is for resolving conflicts. 4E has skill-based encounters for those which don't revolve around getting stabby-stabby.
though you can just resolve them with role play if thats what your group want to do, thats what mine tends to do
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5 years ago ::
Jul 02, 2008 - 9:53PM
#40
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You people really know how to dodge questions.
The entire point of the argument here was that now that nearly all spells are mostly damage spells, the spells that were formerly used to ENHANCE* (note this word) roleplaying are either gone or different from what they were.
Nobody has addressed this directly yet. You're all picking apart tangentially related arguments that are vastly not the key point.
*Yes, we all know roleplaying is seperate from rules. We aren't idiots. But certain aspects of a system CAN make roleplaying easier or more central and others can do the opposite. There has never been an RPG made that completely made it impossible to actually play a role. But you're just plain lying if you say that all games are equally conducive to it.
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