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6 months ago ::
Dec 07, 2012 - 5:30AM
#12981
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Date Joined:
Jun 19, 2004
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I love when people ask for evidence on stuff like that.
Dagger of Speed: "Make a RBA with this Weapon"
Elementalist: "Can use Daggers as Implements"
Elemental Bolt: "Is a RBA"
Here' my DM's evidence against:
Using a Weapon as an Implement: If you’re able to use a weapon as an implement, the weapon works like a normal implement for you, but you use neither the weapon’s proficiency bonus nor its nonmagical weapon properties with your implement powers.
When you use a magic version of the weapon as an implement, you can use the magic weapon’s enhancement bonus, critical hit effects, properties, and powers. However, some magic weapons have properties and powers that are worded in such a way that they work only with weapon attacks. Also, a weapon’s range and damage die are usually irrelevant to implement powers, since such powers have their own ranges and damage expressions.
Weapon of Speed's attack power says: "Effect: You make a ranged basic attack with this weapon."
Alright. Unless I can be convinced otherwise, I'm going to have to say that in the future, this power cannot apply to uses as an Implement, only as a Weapon. (Thank the gods for 4e keywords.)
Any actual rules to prove this false?
When you use a weapliment as a weapon it is still an implement. If you use it as an implement it is still a weapon. I don't have RC. Access at the moment to actually quote anything, but thats the gist of it.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 07, 2012 - 6:00AM
#12982
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Date Joined:
Oct 28, 2010
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The argument is that the thing says you can do it, and that rule does nothing to contradict it. Just posting a scad of rules text doesn't make it say anything to contradict that. You're making an RBA using a weapon, which is what Weapon of Speed tells you to do.
If it said 'with the weapon keyword' or 'weapon attack', he'd be right. But it doesn't, and he's not.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 07, 2012 - 6:27AM
#12983
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I love when people ask for evidence on stuff like that.
Dagger of Speed: "Make a RBA with this Weapon"
Elementalist: "Can use Daggers as Implements"
Elemental Bolt: "Is a RBA"
Here' my DM's evidence against:
Using a Weapon as an Implement: If you’re able to use a weapon as an implement, the weapon works like a normal implement for you, but you use neither the weapon’s proficiency bonus nor its nonmagical weapon properties with your implement powers.
When you use a magic version of the weapon as an implement, you can use the magic weapon’s enhancement bonus, critical hit effects, properties, and powers. However, some magic weapons have properties and powers that are worded in such a way that they work only with weapon attacks. Also, a weapon’s range and damage die are usually irrelevant to implement powers, since such powers have their own ranges and damage expressions.
Weapon of Speed's attack power says: "Effect: You make a ranged basic attack with this weapon."
Alright. Unless I can be convinced otherwise, I'm going to have to say that in the future, this power cannot apply to uses as an Implement, only as a Weapon. (Thank the gods for 4e keywords.)
Any actual rules to prove this false?
When you use a weapliment as a weapon it is still an implement. If you use it as an implement it is still a weapon. I don't have RC. Access at the moment to actually quote anything, but thats the gist of it.
I underlined the important bits. I'm beginning to agree with my DM since no one can seem to provide anything besides semantics for the other interpretation...
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6 months ago ::
Dec 07, 2012 - 6:44AM
#12984
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
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''With this weapon'' refers to specifically using the attack power with it, not that its necessarly a Weapon Attack.
Attacking with Eldritch Blast while using a Weapon of Speed as an implement is effectively making a ranged basic attack with this weapon.
You basically have many regulars of Rules Q&A telling you how it work. Feel free to refute it but it won't be any more RAW.
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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6 months ago ::
Dec 07, 2012 - 10:24AM
#12985
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Date Joined:
Apr 15, 2007
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"An attack with this weapon" is any attack that uses the weapon. If you use the weapon as an implement, it doesn't cease to be a weapon (it's both, in this case). There is specific language, as has been mentioned, for what you and your DM believe, which would be "when you make a weapon attack with this weapon". For example:
Pact Sword
Eladrin warlocks favor these sinister longswords for their ability to combine weapon and magic and for the power to control an enemy's position.
| Lvl 2 |
+1 |
520 gp |
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Lvl 17 |
+4 |
65,000 gp |
| Lvl 7 |
+2 |
2,600 gp |
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Lvl 22 |
+5 |
325,000 gp |
| Lvl 12 |
+3 |
13,000 gp |
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Lvl 27 |
+6 |
1,625,000 gp |
Weapon: Longsword
Enhancement Bonus: attack rolls and damage rolls
Critical: +1d6 damage per plus
Property
If you are an eladrin, this longsword functions as a warlock implement for you (but do not apply the weapon’s proficiency bonus to attack rolls for warlock powers).
Power (Teleportation)  Daily (Free Action)
Use this power when you hit a target affected by your Warlock's Curse with this weapon. Teleport the target a number of squares equal to 1 + this weapon's enhancement bonus.
With the sole exception of Eldritch Strike (or Hexblades), Warlocks aren't bit on Weapon attack powers, so if that Daily can't be used with an implement attack, it's pretty darn useless.
"You can always judge a man by the quality of his enemies." -The Doctor, Remembrance of the Daleks
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6 months ago ::
Dec 07, 2012 - 10:41AM
#12986
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"An attack with this weapon" is any attack that uses the weapon. If you use the weapon as an implement, it doesn't cease to be a weapon (it's both, in this case). There is specific language, as has been mentioned, for what you and your DM believe, which would be "when you make a weapon attack with this weapon". For example:
Pact Sword
Eladrin warlocks favor these sinister longswords for their ability to combine weapon and magic and for the power to control an enemy's position.
| Lvl 2 |
+1 |
520 gp |
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Lvl 17 |
+4 |
65,000 gp |
| Lvl 7 |
+2 |
2,600 gp |
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Lvl 22 |
+5 |
325,000 gp |
| Lvl 12 |
+3 |
13,000 gp |
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Lvl 27 |
+6 |
1,625,000 gp |
Weapon: Longsword
Enhancement Bonus: attack rolls and damage rolls
Critical: +1d6 damage per plus
Property
If you are an eladrin, this longsword functions as a warlock implement for you (but do not apply the weapon’s proficiency bonus to attack rolls for warlock powers).
Power (Teleportation) Daily (Free Action)
Use this power when you hit a target affected by your Warlock's Curse with this weapon. Teleport the target a number of squares equal to 1 + this weapon's enhancement bonus.
With the sole exception of Eldritch Strike (or Hexblades), Warlocks aren't bit on Weapon attack powers, so if that Daily can't be used with an implement attack, it's pretty darn useless.
That's all I was looking for. Thank you.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 07, 2012 - 11:56AM
#12987
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Date Joined:
Feb 20, 2012
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Quick question about the cleric's Price of Violence power and how long it lasts for.
It's reaction triggered power that blinds the attacker until the end of the cleric's next turn. So let say the initiative order is
Goblin
Cleric
The goblin attacks, immediate reaction the goblin is blinded, the clerics turn, is the goblin un-blinded after this turn or the next one?
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6 months ago ::
Dec 07, 2012 - 12:13PM
#12988
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I underlined the important bits. I'm beginning to agree with my DM since no one can seem to provide anything besides semantics for the other interpretation...
So, summary. Ask experts. Experts tell you you're wrong. Ignore experts. Fascinating.
The Weapon or Implement keyword in a power is what makes you "use" a power with the Implement or Weapon in question. Does the RBA you're making have either the Weapon or Implement keyword? Yes? Then you are using whatever Weapon or Implement you are attacking with to make the RBA. If you want to know why, learn the system yourself, if you want to ask a question, accept the answer from people who know more than you.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 07, 2012 - 12:54PM
#12989
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
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The goblin attacks, immediate reaction the goblin is blinded, the clerics turn, is the goblin un-blinded after this turn or the next one?
After this turn. When the Goblin is blinded on his turn, the Cleric's (next) turn hasn't come up yet.
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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6 months ago ::
Dec 07, 2012 - 5:31PM
#12990
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Date Joined:
Apr 15, 2007
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To be fair, Alcestis, "some guys on the internet say so" isn't enough for some people. They need either a direct citation explicitly saying "yes, this is how it works" or at the very least, something they can look at to see how it works in practice. My example isn't really a very good one, as nothing in it directly clarifies the question, but looking at it, someone can puzzle out "hm, well if this Daily only works on weapon attacks, that's rather pointless, so I guess it works after all".
I had this argument with a DM myself, with regards to using a bow as an implement for Rapid Shot shenanigans. He's quite intelligent, but he still couldn't wrap his mind around what I was saying. He kept seeing "attack with this WEAPON" and kept drawing the incorrect conclusion. Once I provided a few examples of what the difference actually was, he finally had his moment of Zen.
"You can always judge a man by the quality of his enemies." -The Doctor, Remembrance of the Daleks
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