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Flag May 13, 2013 5:53 AM PDT

May 10, 2013 -- 12:34PM, mvincent wrote:

May 8, 2013 -- 12:27PM, peteincary wrote:

The table for long jumping shows that a check of 9 or less results in zero squares cleared for a total move of 0 squares.

"clearing" zero squares still moves you one 1 square (i.e. jumping moves you to the square on the other side of the distance you "clear"). PHB p.182: "The creature lands 1 square beyond the squares it clears." "If the creature ends the movement over a drop, it falls and can’t move any farther as part of the current action"

Actually no, a 9 or less jump check results in moving 0 squares.  A 10 lets you move two squares - one jumped over, landing in the square beyond.  This is clearly described in the jump rules as they explain the table:

Athletics ResultDistance ClearedTotal Move
9 or lower 0 squares 0 squares
10–19 1 square (3 feet up) 2 squares
20–29 2 squares (4 feet up) 3 squares
30–39 3 squares (5 feet up) 4 squares
40–49 4 squares (6 feet up) 5 squares

Flag May 13, 2013 1:28 PM PDT

May 13, 2013 -- 5:53AM, Mand12 wrote:

Athletics ResultDistance ClearedTotal Move
9 or lower 0 squares 0 squares

There seems to be an error in the total square moved because the creature in this table doesn't lands 1 square beyond the squares it clears.

Flag May 13, 2013 1:35 PM PDT
The difference is that "clears zero squares" is a non-jump in the same way that "takes zero damage" is a non-damage.

If you roll 9 or lower, you didn't jump.
Flag May 13, 2013 3:05 PM PDT

May 13, 2013 -- 1:35PM, Mand12 wrote:

The difference is that "clears zero squares" is a non-jump in the same way that "takes zero damage" is a non-damage.

If you roll 9 or lower, you didn't jump.

But the problem is that the rules text doesn't state this as an exception. What if it was a running long jump?

Flag May 13, 2013 4:49 PM PDT

May 13, 2013 -- 1:35PM, Mand12 wrote:

The difference is that "clears zero squares" is a non-jump in the same way that "takes zero damage" is a non-damage.

If you roll 9 or lower, you didn't jump.

I would instead say "You jumped, and then landed in the very next square.  The effect of this is identical to moving without jumping, unless something weird and specific happens *when you jump*."

But apart from that, I would agree.

Flag May 13, 2013 6:01 PM PDT

May 13, 2013 -- 3:05PM, mvincent wrote:

May 13, 2013 -- 1:35PM, Mand12 wrote:

The difference is that "clears zero squares" is a non-jump in the same way that "takes zero damage" is a non-damage.

If you roll 9 or lower, you didn't jump.

But the problem is that the rules text doesn't state this as an exception. What if it was a running long jump?

Yes it does, in the table.

We don't have the bizarre text/table priority system that 3e did.

Flag May 13, 2013 9:18 PM PDT
I  find a little ridiculous that you can't jump less than 10 ft in 4E :P

Well, since you don't use squares of movement if you didn't move, you can just make Athletics check until you get a result of 10+ since nothing prevent you from Jumping more than once per move action or movement anyway (unless you hit an obstacle along the way)
Flag May 13, 2013 10:01 PM PDT

May 13, 2013 -- 6:01PM, Mand12 wrote:

May 13, 2013 -- 3:05PM, mvincent wrote:

May 13, 2013 -- 1:35PM, Mand12 wrote:

If you roll 9 or lower, you didn't jump.

But the problem is that the rules text doesn't state this as an exception. What if it was a running long jump?

Yes it does, in the table.

I do not believe the jumping table says "If you roll 9 or lower", and I believe running long jumps are an example where we could possibly agree this is untrue.

Flag May 14, 2013 4:40 AM PDT
Question regarding the Gelatinous Cube:

So while you are inside a gelatinous cube, you are restrained and dazed and are taking ongoing damage.
To get out of that is to escape-from-a-grab.

The confusing situation came from our Paladin who has the feat that allows him a saving throw at the start of his turn to end conditions like Dazed and Stunned.

The condition imposed by the gelatinous cube does not ask for a saving throw and escaping the cube removes all conditions at once.

So the question was "Should he even roll the saving throw against the daze condition in the first place? And if so and he succeeded, what would that do?
Flag May 14, 2013 5:53 AM PDT
He can roll the save.  If he succeeds, he removes the daze and restrain and ongoing - however, since he's still inside the gelcube, it comes back immediately, as the save doesn't ALSO remove him from the gelcube's space etc, so the save has no effect on the conditions.  He can MAKE the same if he wants - and he may well do, if for instance, he has the Hero's Poise feat.

AT least, that's how I'd rule it.
Flag May 14, 2013 6:12 AM PDT

May 13, 2013 -- 10:01PM, mvincent wrote:

May 13, 2013 -- 6:01PM, Mand12 wrote:

May 13, 2013 -- 3:05PM, mvincent wrote:

May 13, 2013 -- 1:35PM, Mand12 wrote:

If you roll 9 or lower, you didn't jump.

But the problem is that the rules text doesn't state this as an exception. What if it was a running long jump?

Yes it does, in the table.

I do not believe the jumping table says "If you roll 9 or lower", and I believe running long jumps are an example where we could possibly agree this is untrue.

"result of 9 or lower" is, in fact, what it says.  Running Start modifies things before checking on the table, not after.

Flag May 14, 2013 6:15 AM PDT

May 13, 2013 -- 9:18PM, Plaguescarred wrote:

I  find a little ridiculous that you can't jump less than 10 ft in 4E :P

Well, since you don't use squares of movement if you didn't move, you can just make Athletics check until you get a result of 10+ since nothing prevent you from Jumping more than once per move action or movement anyway (unless you hit an obstacle along the way)

It says you can make a Jump check as part of an action that involves moving.  It doesn't say you can make as many Jump checks as you want as part of an action that involves moving.

And no, there is no mechanism to jump from one square to an adjacent square.  It may be ridiculous, but it is the rule.  Long Jump is, at its core, about clearing squares, not about replicating the full range of jumping possibilities.

A jump check result of 9 or lower results in no movement and no expenditure of squares of movement.  You're then free to move to the adjacent square as normal, but you're not jumping to it under the Long Jump rules.

Flag May 14, 2013 6:17 AM PDT

May 14, 2013 -- 5:53AM, thespaceinvader wrote:

He can roll the save.  If he succeeds, he removes the daze and restrain and ongoing - however, since he's still inside the gelcube, it comes back immediately, as the save doesn't ALSO remove him from the gelcube's space etc, so the save has no effect on the conditions.  He can MAKE the same if he wants - and he may well do, if for instance, he has the Hero's Poise feat.

AT least, that's how I'd rule it.

Seconded.  Same deal as with that feat and aura effects, and any other position-based effect.  You saved, great, but you're still in the effect so it doesn't go away.

Flag May 14, 2013 6:26 AM PDT
Just saving against Dazed doesn't end the Grab any more than saving against Dazed while using Unnatural Vitality ends the Dying condition on Revenants.

the effect isn't
(grabbed, taking ongoing, and dazed, until escape), it's
(grabbed, until escape)+(these other bad things happen because you are inside a gelatinous cube, escaping the grab puts you outside the cube by definition)

If you made the save it would give you another action to try to escape, and you could do cool stuff like use Immediates while still engulfed assuming you didn't escape.  You would remain undazed until the Cube reapplies the Engulf attack on its turn, and you get Dazed again.
Flag May 14, 2013 6:33 AM PDT

May 14, 2013 -- 6:26AM, FLAvatar wrote:

If you made the save it would give you another action to try to escape, and you could do cool stuff like use Immediates while still engulfed assuming you didn't escape.  You would remain undazed until the Cube reapplies the Engulf attack on its turn, and you get Dazed again.

This is incorrect.  In cube = dazed.

Flag May 14, 2013 8:44 AM PDT

May 14, 2013 -- 6:26AM, FLAvatar wrote:

the effect isn't
(grabbed, taking ongoing, and dazed, until escape), it's
(grabbed, until escape)+(these other bad things happen because you are inside a gelatinous cube, escaping the grab puts you outside the cube by definition)

Actually the effect is the first line you give, where all effects apply until escape, although each cube words it slightly differently due to various updates.

From Gelatinous Cube: Spoiler: Show

Until the grab ends, the target takes ongoing 10 acid damage and is dazed.

From Massive Gelatinous Cube: Spoiler: Show
...the target is grabbed, pulled into the cube’s space, dazed, and takes ongoing 11 acid damage until the grab ends.

From Gluttnous Cube: Spoiler: Show
the target is dazed and takes ongoing 15 acid damage until it escapes the grab.
Flag May 14, 2013 8:47 AM PDT
All of which are functionally the same.
Flag May 14, 2013 11:39 AM PDT

May 14, 2013 -- 6:15AM, Mand12 wrote:

It says you can make a Jump check as part of an action that involves moving.

No it doesn't say that, you are the one making it singular by saying ''a jump'' It says;

Action: The check is usually part of a move action, but it can be part of any of the creature’s actions that involve the creature moving.

May 14, 2013 -- 6:15AM, Mand12 wrote:

It doesn't say you can make as many Jump checks as you want as part of an action that involves moving.

It doesn't say you cannot make as many Jump checks as you want as part of an action that involves moving and its not limited in use.

Flag May 14, 2013 11:43 AM PDT

May 14, 2013 -- 11:39AM, Plaguescarred wrote:

It doesn't say you cannot

Improper 4e rules construction.

Flag May 14, 2013 11:47 AM PDT
The improper construction is the one you claim the rules to say. Me and RisingZan already told you the rules didn't say you couldn't make more than one check per move action or movement as you claim to.
Flag May 14, 2013 11:49 AM PDT

May 14, 2013 -- 11:47AM, Plaguescarred wrote:

the rules didn't say you couldn't

This, still this.  Do you not understand what I'm saying here, about how this doesn't work?

Flag May 14, 2013 12:06 PM PDT

May 13, 2013 -- 9:18PM, Plaguescarred wrote:

I  find a little ridiculous that you can't jump less than 10 ft in 4E :P

Well, since you don't use squares of movement if you didn't move, you can just make Athletics check until you get a result of 10+ since nothing prevent you from Jumping more than once per move action or movement anyway (unless you hit an obstacle along the way)

Completely agree. My Rogue/Executioner has the At-Will Utility Ghost on the Rooftops and just hops his movement distance everywhere. The rest of the party thinks it's somewhat comical.

-Just Say NO to difficult terrain!-

Flag May 14, 2013 12:45 PM PDT

May 14, 2013 -- 12:06PM, da_duke wrote:

May 13, 2013 -- 9:18PM, Plaguescarred wrote:

I  find a little ridiculous that you can't jump less than 10 ft in 4E :P

Well, since you don't use squares of movement if you didn't move, you can just make Athletics check until you get a result of 10+ since nothing prevent you from Jumping more than once per move action or movement anyway (unless you hit an obstacle along the way)

Completely agree. My Rogue/Executioner has the At-Will Utility Ghost on the Rooftops and just hops his movement distance everywhere. The rest of the party thinks it's somewhat comical.

-Just Say NO to difficult terrain!-

Well you can always jump less distance than your check result, so if you had a jump check of 15, you could say you cleared 0 squares and landed in the next square, hopping over a low wall or something similar.

Otherwise you'd have a problems with jumping challenges where characters with good athletic checks keep jumping over the target square because they can't jump less than 15 feet.

Flag May 14, 2013 12:50 PM PDT

May 14, 2013 -- 8:44AM, RisingZan wrote:

May 14, 2013 -- 6:26AM, FLAvatar wrote:

the effect isn't
(grabbed, taking ongoing, and dazed, until escape), it's
(grabbed, until escape)+(these other bad things happen because you are inside a gelatinous cube, escaping the grab puts you outside the cube by definition)

Actually the effect is the first line you give, where all effects apply until escape, although each cube words it slightly differently due to various updates.

From Gelatinous Cube: Spoiler: Show

Until the grab ends, the target takes ongoing 10 acid damage and is dazed.

From Massive Gelatinous Cube: Spoiler: Show
...the target is grabbed, pulled into the cube’s space, dazed, and takes ongoing 11 acid damage until the grab ends.

From Gluttnous Cube: Spoiler: Show
the target is dazed and takes ongoing 15 acid damage until it escapes the grab.

I was quibbling over the point that ending the Daze should not end the Grab.  If succeeding on the save ended all the conditions, the victim (assuming Medium size) would be illegally occupying the Cube's space if he doesn't get shifted outside the cube, and no longer inside the Cube for the conditions to get re-applied if he does shift to a legal square.

I guess my POV is that ending a Grab via a saving throw is functionally the same as Escaping a Grab, and that I have no problem with leaving an un-Dazed Paladin stuck in a box.  Even if it isn't the same, the moment the Grab ends the victim has to occupy a legal square.

It's no excuse for screwing up argument beyond all recognition by trying to parse it out for illustration, and failing miserably =)

Flag May 14, 2013 1:09 PM PDT

May 14, 2013 -- 11:49AM, Mand12 wrote:

May 14, 2013 -- 11:47AM, Plaguescarred wrote:

the rules didn't say you couldn't

This, still this.  Do you not understand what I'm saying here, about how this doesn't work?

I understand what your argument , but I believe you're misapplying that maxim in this instance.  The argument Plaguescarred and I are making is that Jump does not need to specifically state that you can jump multiple times during movement because jump can occur at any time during any other movement.

Let's step away from the Jump example and apply it to another movement related skill that is written in a similar way:

### HOP DOWN

Make an Acrobatics check to hop down 10 feet and land standing.

Action: The check is usually part of a move action, but it can be part of any of the creature’s actions that involve the creature moving.
DC: DC 15. The creature can make this Acrobatics check only if the drop is no more than 10 feet.
Success: The creature hops down, lands standing, and takes no falling damage. The downward move uses no movement from the action.
Failure: The creature falls.

Now let's say the character has an Acrobatics skill of +20, so success at Hop Down is automatic, and is standing at the edge of a terrain feature, where there is a 5' ledge 10 feet down, then there is another 5' ledge 10 feet below that, and then the ground level 10 feet below that.
Looking something like this, where P is the player:

P
|
|_
|
|_
|
|_

Would you only allow the player to hop down one ledge per action because the Acrobatics skill does not specifically state you can hop down multiple times per action allowing movement?

Note that both Jump and Hop Down have no action type and are not limited by action type - they are instead part of any other action that allows movement.

I can conceive of scenarios where a single character hops down, jumps, swims, climbs and flies in the same action.  None of Hop Down, Jump or Climb explicitly state that you can take one of those other actions during the same movement action, but that is not because its not allowed, its because they are implicitly all allowed to occur at any time during any movement.
There is a specific rule about combining climbing, burrowing, flying, walking and swimming, but that rule particularly pertains to how to calculate total speed when combining movement modes.

Flag May 14, 2013 1:17 PM PDT
I completely admit that it is stupid, pointless, completely counterintuitive, and shouldn't be applied by any rational DM to any actual game.

None of that is relevant to what the rules actually say.  We need to be clear about what they say before we dismiss them, not distort what they say to what we think they should say.
Flag May 14, 2013 7:12 PM PDT
Sorcerous Blade Channeling + Weapon of Speed's minor action power or Ruthelss Spellfury.  Both of the latter allow you to make a ranged basic attack.  Can that then be turned into a melee attack, even though they're explicitly ranged?  (Note: I'm aware that they'd function as melee attacks, not melee basic attacks; that's not the question).
Flag May 14, 2013 8:04 PM PDT

May 14, 2013 -- 7:12PM, masteraleph wrote:

Sorcerous Blade Channeling + Weapon of Speed's minor action power or Ruthelss Spellfury.  Both of the latter allow you to make a ranged basic attack.  Can that then be turned into a melee attack, even though they're explicitly ranged?  (Note: I'm aware that they'd function as melee attacks, not melee basic attacks; that's not the question).

Just because it becomes melee doesn't make it not an RBA. Still an RBA.

Flag May 15, 2013 6:15 AM PDT
Is there a way for a Sorcerer to use the properties of a dagger when the dagger is used as an implement? For instance, I have a Jagged Dagger that increases the crit range to 19-20. Can that crit range be used on my burst/blast powers?
Flag May 15, 2013 6:29 AM PDT
There isn't "a way" in the sense of "you do this trick, or take this feat" - it just does.  A weapon enchantment has to actually say things like "weapon attack" in order to not work.  Jagged implement works fine, no adjustment required.  Do what the enchantment says.
Flag May 15, 2013 5:19 PM PDT
I have two questions about Knightly Intercession (paladin level 9 daily attack power).

1. I can choose not to subject the target to divine sanction even if I hit it with the attack, right?
2. Suppose the triggering event is an enemy hitting with a ranged attack.  As an effect I pull it adjacent to me and make the stated attack, as an immediate interrupt.  Can I also get an opportunity attack against it, since it has now made a ranged attack against me while adjacent?

Thanks.
Flag May 15, 2013 5:54 PM PDT
1. No, the target is subject to your divine sanction even if you don't want to.

2. No because the triggering enemy wasn't adjacent to you when it used the ranged power.
Flag May 15, 2013 6:01 PM PDT

May 15, 2013 -- 5:54PM, Plaguescarred wrote:

1. No, the target is subject to your divine sanction even if you don't want to.

2. No because the triggering enemy wasn't adjacent to you when it used the ranged power.

Okay, then.  Follow up to #1: can I choose not to make the attack?  Alternatively, can I choose to release the mark after it's applied?

Flag May 15, 2013 6:34 PM PDT
The Effect line doesn't seem to give a choice if you can make the attack or not.

You cannot released a mark unless noted otherwise. It last until it ends or its superceded.
Flag May 15, 2013 6:42 PM PDT
Bummer, okay then.  Thanks!
Flag May 15, 2013 6:52 PM PDT
Check with your DM. He may say ypu don't have to attack it if you don't want to, similar to how PHB2 FAQ explain how you don't have to attack an ally with Chaos Bolt. While not identical case, they are pretty similar in that way they tells you to ''make the following attack/secondary attack''
Flag May 15, 2013 6:59 PM PDT
Right, thanks.  This is for a hybrid cavalier where marks would mess up his defender aura, which is superior.  I'll probably go with a safer, legal-by-RAW power for LFR and ask my DM for the home game.
Flag May 15, 2013 8:09 PM PDT
Not sure if this has been asked yet, couldn't find it in my quick search. Just wondering, if a player has an ability (such as the monk's Dragon Tail) which knocks a target prone, does that always knock the target prone on a hit? Even for large or larger creatures?
It just seems weird that a medium creature could potentially knock a gargantuan creature prone with an at will.
Flag May 15, 2013 8:38 PM PDT
Yes,  an effect always know prone regardless of size unless it specifically mention it only work against creature of a some size only (ex. Serpent Dance Strine, Shadow Sever etc...)
Flag May 16, 2013 12:11 AM PDT
Say a player's char is 2 squares from a door diagonally. S/he decides to move the char 6 squares directly through the door and into the room, only to find an enemy inside. Can the player 'decide' to move the char just three squares to the door, instead of the entire 6 squares? Yes? No? DM-dependent?
Flag May 16, 2013 12:20 AM PDT
Movement is resolved square-by-square.
Flag May 16, 2013 12:22 AM PDT

May 16, 2013 -- 12:11AM, Azedenkae wrote:

Say a player's char is 2 squares from a door diagonally. S/he decides to move the char 6 squares directly through the door and into the room, only to find an enemy inside. Can the player 'decide' to move the char just three squares to the door, instead of the entire 6 squares? Yes? No? DM-dependent?

Yes. Movement is done square-by-square by 5 feet increment. If after moving two squares into the doorway, the character see enemies inside the room, it can use the remainder of his or her movements to keeping going into the room or move back anywhere else it want to.

[Ninja'ed!]

Flag May 16, 2013 3:54 AM PDT
Can a player do a charge attack against a creature that it cannot see? ie the enemy has become Invisible and successfully Hidden, and the player is guessing the square the enemy is in?
Flag May 16, 2013 5:39 AM PDT
Thanks Alcestis and Plaguescarred. That was easy. :D
Flag May 16, 2013 5:43 AM PDT

May 16, 2013 -- 3:54AM, peteincary wrote:

Can a player do a charge attack against a creature that it cannot see? ie the enemy has become Invisible and successfully Hidden, and the player is guessing the square the enemy is in?

Yes, they can.  If the target is Hidden, they must guess which square it is in.

Flag May 16, 2013 7:47 AM PDT

Can a player do a charge attack against an open square where they think an enemy might be hiding? (Even if there is no real reason to think there is actually an enemy in that square?)

* As for why he might want to attempt this charge attack: He is standing next to 3 enemies and wants to run away without taking an opp attack, and he has a neck item that causes movement as part of a charge to not provoke opp attacks. So he wants to charge against an open square.

Flag May 16, 2013 7:50 AM PDT
Unless he has a good reason to believe that there is an enemy there (he saw something hide, for isntance) I'd call bag of rats myself.
Flag May 16, 2013 7:53 AM PDT
On reading the charge rules, I'm not convinced you can charge a hidden target.
Flag May 16, 2013 10:39 AM PDT
Ok guys. I have something of a complex question, that I am sure has a simple answer. It's about damage rolls in regards to skills with 2(w) or higher. My friends and I are new to 4E rules, and most of us are new to D&D period. As such, to simplify, we've all created our characters using an Excel sheet where you put in basic info, make some choices, roll your abilities, and it spits out everything for you. We'll go on my character as an example so I can give you some real stats.

Str - 19  mod +4  mod+1/2lvl +6
Con - 15  mod +2  mod+1/2lvl +4
Dex - 12  mod +1  mod+1/2lvl +3
Int - 11  mod +0  mod+1/2lvl +2
Wis - 12  mod +1  mod+1/2lvl +3
Cha - 13  mod +1  mod+1/2lvl +3

I use a Maul+2. Between my Str ability mod, and my maul's +2, my damage when doing a normal attack (according to the damage workspace on the sheet) is 2D6+6. My question is regarding that +6.

If I perform one of my dailys, Paladin's Judgement, it says that I do 3[W] + STR modifier. So is that going to mean that I roll 2d6+6, 2d6+6, 2d6+6, plus my strength modifier of +6? Or would it be 2d6, 2d6, 2d6, plus strength modifier of 6? I don't think it'd be that one, because at the very least, my maul has a plus 2 inherent with every hit. I guess, the question is, am I doing just a bonkers amount of damage, with a minimum of 30 and a max of 60? or am I doing rolls without the bonus plus 6 for a minimum of 12 and a max of 42?

That's super convoluted to write out, if it's not clear, please let me know and I'll try to rephrase it.

Flag May 16, 2013 10:44 AM PDT
It doesn't matter how many dice you roll, the attack is still one damage roll.  Whether it's 1[W] or 7[W], whether [W] itself is 1d12 or 2d6, you add modifiers to the damage roll once.

In your case, "3[W]+Str" on the power, used with a Maul, will be 6d6+6.  The +6 will include +4 for your Str mod, and +2 for your enhancement bonus to damage rolls.
Flag May 16, 2013 10:45 AM PDT
Standard rules of algebra still apply, including PEMDAS.  '3[W] + STR modifier' means '(3[W]) + STR modifier', not '3([W] + STR modifier)'.
Flag May 16, 2013 10:49 AM PDT
Ok, so the +strength modifier listed in the skill description does not stack on any strength modifier inherent in a normal swing? What if, as in the case of Bolstering Smite it's a 1[W]+Charisma modifier. So does that mean it'd be a roll of 2d6+3?
Flag May 16, 2013 10:51 AM PDT
I suppose +2 for the maul+2, making it 2d6+5?
Flag May 16, 2013 10:56 AM PDT

May 16, 2013 -- 10:39AM, TunicaDartos wrote:

I use a Maul+2. Between my Str ability mod, and my maul's +2, my damage when doing a normal attack (according to the damage workspace on the sheet) is 2D6+6. My question is regarding that +6.

If I perform one of my dailys, Paladin's Judgement, it says that I do 3[W] + STR modifier. So is that going to mean that I roll 2d6+6, 2d6+6, 2d6+6, plus my strength modifier of +6? Or would it be 2d6, 2d6, 2d6, plus strength modifier of 6? I don't think it'd be that one, because at the very least, my maul has a plus 2 inherent with every hit. I guess, the question is, am I doing just a bonkers amount of damage, with a minimum of 30 and a max of 60? or am I doing rolls without the bonus plus 6 for a minimum of 12 and a max of 42?

If you admit that the first sounds "bonkers," why do you think the second is wrong?

The second, bolded part, is correct. (W) only refers to the weapons actual damage dice. A maul is 2d6, so 3(W) is 6d6. The strength and enchantment bonus only apply once to each damage roll, not to each die or (W) of damage.

Flag May 16, 2013 10:59 AM PDT

May 16, 2013 -- 10:49AM, TunicaDartos wrote:

Ok, so the +strength modifier listed in the skill description does not stack on any strength modifier inherent in a normal swing? What if, as in the case of Bolstering Smite it's a 1[W]+Charisma modifier. So does that mean it'd be a roll of 2d6+3?

There is no modifier "inherent" in a normal swing.  A "normal swing" in 4e is actually a power in itself:  Melee Basic Attack.  It deals 1[W]+Str mod.  There isn't an automatic modifier that you add to all weapon attacks like there was in prior editions.

This is most evident in classes that don't use Strength for attacks.  If you take your Paladin and have a Charisma attack, that uses the Charisma modifier for its attack roll and damage roll, then you don't apply your Strength modifier.  Basically, you only add your Strength modifier is the power actually says "+ Strength Modifier" where it tells you how much damage it does.

In your case of Bolstering Smite, with your +1 Cha mod, then your damage is 2d6+1, with the extra +2 for the enhancement bonus to end up with 2d6+3.  It's not that it doesn't "stack" with the Strength mod, it's that the Strength mod doesn't exist for this attack.

Flag May 16, 2013 11:01 AM PDT

May 16, 2013 -- 10:51AM, TunicaDartos wrote:

I suppose +2 for the maul+2, making it 2d6+5?

No, your Charisma Mod is only +1. The half level bonus never applies to damage. Your damage with Bolstering Smite is 2d6+3, and your to hit is only +5 (as opposed to the +10 to hit with Strength based powers).

Flag May 16, 2013 11:03 AM PDT

May 16, 2013 -- 11:01AM, MalakLightfoot wrote:

your to hit is only +5 (as opposed to the +10 to hit with Strength based powers).

Actually it's +7 to hit with Bolstering Strike.  Half level is applied to the attack roll.

Flag May 16, 2013 11:05 AM PDT

May 16, 2013 -- 10:56AM, MalakLightfoot wrote:

If you admit that the first sounds "bonkers," why do you think the second is wrong?

Wishful thinking? lol.

::EDIT:: nevermind, you answered before I finished typing.

Flag May 16, 2013 11:06 AM PDT
You're using Cha instead of Str.  I read your post before you edited it out, it was a valid question.
Flag May 16, 2013 11:08 AM PDT
Thanks so much guys. My party has a lot to discuss on Monday.
Flag May 16, 2013 11:18 AM PDT

May 16, 2013 -- 11:03AM, Mand12 wrote:

May 16, 2013 -- 11:01AM, MalakLightfoot wrote:

your to hit is only +5 (as opposed to the +10 to hit with Strength based powers).

Actually it's +7 to hit with Bolstering Strike.  Half level is applied to the attack roll.

You're right. I forgot to add the proficiency bonus when i was adding it up.

Flag May 16, 2013 1:00 PM PDT

May 16, 2013 -- 10:59AM, Mand12 wrote:

There is no modifier "inherent" in a normal swing.  A "normal swing" in 4e is actually a power in itself:  Melee Basic Attack.  It deals 1[W]+Str mod.  There isn't an automatic modifier that you add to all weapon attacks like there was in prior editions.

This is most evident in classes that don't use Strength for attacks.  If you take your Paladin and have a Charisma attack, that uses the Charisma modifier for its attack roll and damage roll, then you don't apply your Strength modifier.  Basically, you only add your Strength modifier is the power actually says "+ Strength Modifier" where it tells you how much damage it does.

In your case of Bolstering Smite, with your +1 Cha mod, then your damage is 2d6+1, with the extra +2 for the enhancement bonus to end up with 2d6+3.  It's not that it doesn't "stack" with the Strength mod, it's that the Strength mod doesn't exist for this attack.

I'll just +1 this for making sure to read your powers specifically for which ability modifiers apply to damage.  Different powers for the same class can vary greatly.

For example, the Ranger's Twin Strike power uses Strength or Dex on the attack roll, depending on if its a Melee or Ranged Attack, but does not apply either strength or dex to the damage roll : "1[W] damage per attack."
Also note that because the power specifies you use Dexterity for ranged attacks, you always have to use Dexterity for ranged attacks with twin strike, even if you're using a Heavy Thrown weapon.

Marauder's Rush on the other hand uses Strength for the attack roll, but damage gets + Strength and Wisdom "1[W] + Strength modifier + Wisdom modifier damage."

The maxim that usually gets repeated around here is "Powers only do exactly what they say they do, no more, no less", which is very true when reading attack powers.  Feats and other bonuses (such as weapon/implement enhancement bonus) aren't listed on the power, but they apply as they state they do.

Also note that if a power's damage doesn't include rolling any dice, for example if its just "Strength modifier damage", then you do not get to add any other static bonuses to that damage because things like Enhancement bonuses specifically state they apply to "damage rolls". Extra damage such as from sneak attack that applies may still be added, and that may then give you a damage roll to which the other bonuses can be applied.

Flag May 17, 2013 12:47 AM PDT
Remember: the rules do WHAT they say, and ONLY what they say.  Your weapon power says you use CHA for attack and damage?  DO that, and ONLY that.  Don't assume anything.
Flag May 17, 2013 6:43 AM PDT

May 16, 2013 -- 11:01AM, MalakLightfoot wrote:

No, your Charisma Mod is only +1. The half level bonus never applies to damage.

Guys, thanks again so much for your help thus far, and please excuse my continued ignorance here.

Unless I'm just blind, while reading the leveling up and ability scores sections of the player's handbook, I haven't found any distinction between the ability mod and the half level bonus. Could you please give me a quick run down of what the difference between them? I've always just assumed that they grouped together to form your bonus, irregardless of what you are using the bonus for (i.e., checks, attacks, damage, etc).

Flag May 17, 2013 6:53 AM PDT
The ability mod is (score-10)/2, round down.  Nothing else, ever.

The half-level bonus is something that gets added to d20 rolls and defenses (AC/Fort/Ref/Will).

They're not the same thing.  The default character sheet and some of the language in the PHB suggests that you calculate "mod plus half level" as something useful, and it's one of the most misleading things 4e has ever done because it results in exactly the kind of confusion you are facing now.  The specific roll will tell you when you use half-level.  It's attack rolls, skill checks, and defenses that get the half-level bonus, and they get the bonus because they say so, not because it's an inherent part of the modifier.

I really wish they were more clear, but they were trying to save you an extra step of arithmetic and spawned an entire confusing problem in doing so.
Flag May 17, 2013 6:55 AM PDT

May 17, 2013 -- 6:43AM, TunicaDartos wrote:

May 16, 2013 -- 11:01AM, MalakLightfoot wrote:

No, your Charisma Mod is only +1. The half level bonus never applies to damage.

Guys, thanks again so much for your help thus far, and please excuse my continued ignorance here.

Unless I'm just blind, while reading the leveling up and ability scores sections of the player's handbook, I haven't found any distinction between the ability mod and the half level bonus. Could you please give me a quick run down of what the difference between them? I've always just assumed that they grouped together to form your bonus, irregardless of what you are using the bonus for (i.e., checks, attacks, damage, etc).

The 1/2 level bonus gets added to almost everything for which you throw a d20, except saving throws. Attack rolls, initiative, skill checks and raw ability checks.

Probably something I missed, just woke up, still a little sleepy.

Flag May 17, 2013 6:57 AM PDT
Hahaha, I'm so glad that I'm not the only one who finds some of the new rules a bit ambiguous. Thanks for the info! Now to delve back into the PHB.
Flag May 17, 2013 5:54 PM PDT
How conspicuous are bard rituals? Do they simply require a tune to be played, or is it more obvious that there is magic involved? For example, if a bard were pretending to be part of a royal music court, could he perform the Lullaby ritual without drawing attention to himself, just by playing?
Flag May 17, 2013 6:16 PM PDT
Rituals don't have a rigorously-defined set of rules associated with them to this level of detail.  Basically, up to the DM.
Flag May 18, 2013 9:57 AM PDT
Seems silly, but I have to ask: if you use Elven Accuracy with a power that says "Make two attack rolls, take the higher result", do you get to re-roll both dice or just one?
Flag May 18, 2013 10:03 AM PDT

May 18, 2013 -- 9:57AM, spunxow wrote:

Seems silly, but I have to ask: if you use Elven Accuracy with a power that says "Make two attack rolls, take the higher result", do you get to re-roll both dice or just one?

Basically, you make your two attack rolls, decide which one is the higher result, then trigger Elven Accuracy, which would let you re-roll the "higher result" die from the two die rolls you made previously.

Flag May 18, 2013 10:04 AM PDT

May 18, 2013 -- 9:57AM, spunxow wrote:

Seems silly, but I have to ask: if you use Elven Accuracy with a power that says "Make two attack rolls, take the higher result", do you get to re-roll both dice or just one?

Elven accuracy says

Trigger: You make an attack roll and dislike the result.Effect: Reroll the attack roll. Use the second roll, even if it’s lower

The power let you make two attack rolls, so Elven Accuracy lets you reroll 1 of the two attack rolls you disliked the result of and reroll that one attack roll.

So for example, an Elven Avenger Ranger that gets to make two attack rolls due to Oath of Enmity for Split the Tree can use Elven Accuracy to reroll one of the two dice, and then use the higher of or the reroll or the original die that was not rerolled.

(Edited due to my snafu on forgetting Oath of Enmity's special reroll rules)

Flag May 18, 2013 10:16 AM PDT

May 18, 2013 -- 10:04AM, RisingZan wrote:

So for example, an Elven Avenger that gets to make two attack rolls due to Oath of Enmity can use Elven Accuracy to reroll one of the two dice.

Well, no, not exactly. OoE specifically says that if you get to reroll, you reroll both dice. But for other properties like that, then yeah.

Flag May 18, 2013 11:41 AM PDT

May 18, 2013 -- 10:16AM, ThatWasTotallyNinja wrote:

May 18, 2013 -- 10:04AM, RisingZan wrote:

So for example, an Elven Avenger that gets to make two attack rolls due to Oath of Enmity can use Elven Accuracy to reroll one of the two dice.

Well, no, not exactly. OoE specifically says that if you get to reroll, you reroll both dice. But for other properties like that, then yeah.

ah, you're right, I recalled Oath as being a way to get double rolls but forgot it had the special rules for rerolls.

Flag May 19, 2013 2:39 PM PDT
Well I have a question. I have a swordmage using the aegis of shielding ability. Which means he can block some of the damage as long as it happens within 10 squares of him as an immediate interupt. How many times can he use that ability? For example, he marks a displacer beast. It makes two tentacle attacks hitting two seperate opponents. Can he use his power to negate the damage on both attacks or just one?
Flag May 19, 2013 2:46 PM PDT

May 19, 2013 -- 2:39PM, Darruesh wrote:

Well I have a question. I have a swordmage using the aegis of shielding ability. Which means he can block some of the damage as long as it happens within 10 squares of him as an immediate interupt. How many times can he use that ability? For example, he marks a displacer beast. It makes two tentacle attacks hitting two seperate opponents. Can he use his power to negate the damage on both attacks or just one?

The power is used as an immediate action (can't recall interrupt or reaction), and you only get one of those a round.

Flag May 19, 2013 5:45 PM PDT
This should be an easy question here. Another player and myself are in a disagreement on the damage a bladespell does.

When dealing damage with a bladesinger's bladespell, do you use the total of the Dex mod and 1/2 level (if high enough level to change the mod) or just the flat Dex mod for damage?
Flag May 19, 2013 6:03 PM PDT

May 19, 2013 -- 5:45PM, RndmRlln wrote:

This should be an easy question here. Another player and myself are in a disagreement on the damage a bladespell does.

When dealing damage with a bladesinger's bladespell, do you use the total of the Dex mod and 1/2 level (if high enough level to change the mod) or just the flat Dex mod for damage?

Just flat Dex mod, which is exactly what it says.

Flag May 19, 2013 8:19 PM PDT
More to the point, the only die rolls that your 1/2 level modifier applies to are d20 rolls, not including saving throws.

Attack Rolls
Skill Checks
Ability Checks
Initiative Check

and that's it ; so make sure he isn't adding 1/2 level to the damage of the melee basic he's making which triggers the bladespell either.
1/2 level is also added to defenses, but those aren't a die roll.

Flag May 19, 2013 8:29 PM PDT

May 19, 2013 -- 2:46PM, FoxFireInferno wrote:

May 19, 2013 -- 2:39PM, Darruesh wrote:

Well I have a question. I have a swordmage using the aegis of shielding ability. Which means he can block some of the damage as long as it happens within 10 squares of him as an immediate interupt. How many times can he use that ability? For example, he marks a displacer beast. It makes two tentacle attacks hitting two seperate opponents. Can he use his power to negate the damage on both attacks or just one?

The power is used as an immediate action (can't recall interrupt or reaction), and you only get one of those a round.

At Level 21 you can take the feat Rapid Aegis Reaction (from Dungeon Magazine issue 387, also visible on the online compedium), which makes the first use of your aegis each round not count towards your immediate action limit for the round.
However you're still restricted to one immediate action per trigger, so if the enemy is making a Blast or Burst attack, you can only defend one ally that was hit by the triggering attack as it is a single attack.  If the enemy is instead making multiple melee or ranged attacks, you could use your two uses of Aegis against two of those separate attacks.

Flag May 20, 2013 3:17 PM PDT
How do you have spoiler say something other than spoiler?

Thanks
Flag May 20, 2013 4:08 PM PDT
(sblock=Stuff you Want the Spoiler to Say)stuff in block (/sblock)

Replace ) with ]

Stuff you Want the Spoiler to Say Show
stuff in block
Flag May 21, 2013 5:38 PM PDT
Are there limits on which classes can learn Martial Practices? For example, does your class's power source have to be Martial?
Flag May 21, 2013 6:54 PM PDT

To master Martial Practices you need the Practiced Study feat (Martial Power 2), which has the requirement: Any martial class...
Thus you need to either be a Martial class or take a multiclass feat to count as one for the purpose of feat prerequisites. Although chances are that most characters interested in martial practices will probably already be doing that anyway.

Flag May 22, 2013 2:14 PM PDT
Would a Sorceror's Ensorcelled Blade benefit from a Lancing Dagger's bonus to Lightning damage when using the (Lightning enchant) Lancing Dagger? The trait says I get the damage bonus when I use an 'attack power' of the same type as my implement when I use it through the implement.

I'm pretty shaky on the weapliment stuff, so I'm not sure if it only applies if I'm using an Implement Power.
Flag May 22, 2013 2:57 PM PDT

May 22, 2013 -- 2:14PM, Silverseeker wrote:

Would a Sorceror's Ensorcelled Blade benefit from a Lancing Dagger's bonus to Lightning damage when using the (Lightning enchant) Lancing Dagger? The trait says I get the damage bonus when I use an 'attack power' of the same type as my implement when I use it through the implement.

I'm pretty shaky on the weapliment stuff, so I'm not sure if it only applies if I'm using an Implement Power.

The Empowered Crit and Energized (Lightning) properties of a Lancing Dagger do NOT apply to either the initial damage of Ensorcelled Blade  or the damage triggered when the enemy hits or misses you with a melee attack because Ensorcelled Blade has the Weapon keyword and not the Implement keyword.
Those two properties specifically only apply to Implement powers.

If you have a Lightning Lancing Dagger, then you can do Lightning damage with any of your powers, and any implement keyword powers get the bonus damage from the energized propoerty of the lancing dagger.

Flag May 22, 2013 4:00 PM PDT

May 22, 2013 -- 2:57PM, RisingZan wrote:

May 22, 2013 -- 2:14PM, Silverseeker wrote:

Would a Sorceror's Ensorcelled Blade benefit from a Lancing Dagger's bonus to Lightning damage when using the (Lightning enchant) Lancing Dagger? The trait says I get the damage bonus when I use an 'attack power' of the same type as my implement when I use it through the implement.

I'm pretty shaky on the weapliment stuff, so I'm not sure if it only applies if I'm using an Implement Power.

The Empowered Crit and Energized (Lightning) properties of a Lancing Dagger do NOT apply to either the initial damage of Ensorcelled Blade  or the damage triggered when the enemy hits or misses you with a melee attack because Ensorcelled Blade has the Weapon keyword and not the Implement keyword.
Those two properties specifically only apply to Implement powers.

If you have a Lightning Lancing Dagger, then you can do Lightning damage with any of your powers, and any implement keyword powers get the bonus damage from the energized propoerty of the lancing dagger.

:l Too bad. I was really hoping for a few more damage, but that makes sense. lol

Flag May 22, 2013 6:40 PM PDT
I have an ability that lets me slide my enemy 3 squares. Do I have to have line of effect on the enemy for each square of movement during the slide, or only at the start of the slide?
Flag May 22, 2013 7:28 PM PDT
You must have line of effect to any square that you pulls, pushes, or slides a target into.

Line of Effect: A creature must have line of effect to any square that it pulls, pushes, or slides a target into. Also, a target cannot be forced through blocking terrain.

Flag May 23, 2013 6:09 AM PDT
Question about the Crawl move action:

Can you fly while crawling? Or does the fact that you are prone make you automatically fall if you try to fly again while still prone?

For clarification: For the rules on flying, it says that if a creature is knocked prone while flying, it falls.... So does that mean that once it is prone, it can fly again using the Crawl move action?
Flag May 23, 2013 6:18 AM PDT
You can't be prone while flying, so you can't crawl while flying.

Taking off from a prone position, though, yes you can do that.

From Prone:
The creature is lying down. However, if the creature is climbing or flying, it falls.
The only way the creature can move is by crawling, teleporting, or being pulled, pushed, or slid.

From Crawl:
Action: Move action. A creature must be prone to take this action.
Move: The creature moves up to half its speed.

So, you can use your fly speed with the Crawl action, and fly half of it.  However, once you're not on the ground, you're no longer prone.  You can't, then, start using your non-halved speed, because you're still in the Crawl action.  Crawl does say that you must be prone to take the action, and you were at the time you took it.  It does not say you have to remain prone during the action.
Flag May 23, 2013 6:40 AM PDT

May 23, 2013 -- 6:18AM, Mand12 wrote:

You can't be prone while flying, so you can't crawl while flying.

Taking off from a prone position, though, yes you can do that.

From Prone:
The creature is lying down. However, if the creature is climbing or flying, it falls.
The only way the creature can move is by crawling, teleporting, or being pulled, pushed, or slid.

From Crawl:
Action: Move action. A creature must be prone to take this action.
Move: The creature moves up to half its speed.

So, you can use your fly speed with the Crawl action, and fly half of it.  However, once you're not on the ground, you're no longer prone.  You can't, then, start using your non-halved speed, because you're still in the Crawl action.  Crawl does say that you must be prone to take the action, and you were at the time you took it.  It does not say you have to remain prone during the action.

Ah I did not think to look at the prone definition. So now 2 comments on your answer:

1) Crawling (whether on the ground or through the air) does not appear to cancel the prone condition. Just because you take off and are no longer on the ground (using the crawl action), you don't get to cancel your prone condition. Nothing about the crawl move action says that you become no longer prone by taking the action.

In fact, according to the prone condition, a creature can end this condition by standing up. It does not say that things like flying or teleporting end the prone condition.

2) The prone condition has, as part of the definition, that if the creature is flying, it falls. That would mean that if a creature uses the crawl action to fly upwards 1 square, it immediately falls, because that is part of the prone definition. What the creature falls 1 square, though, it takes no falling damage, so it does not become prone from the fall itself. However, it still remains prone from already being prone before taking off in the first place using the crawl action.

Flag May 23, 2013 6:55 AM PDT
"the creature is lying down" is what it means to be prone.  If you are no longer lying down, you are no longer prone.
Flag May 23, 2013 7:14 AM PDT

May 23, 2013 -- 6:55AM, Mand12 wrote:

"the creature is lying down" is what it means to be prone.  If you are no longer lying down, you are no longer prone.

Prone is a condition. You are prone until you end the condition. Prone states that you end the condition by standing up. There is nothing in the crawl move action that states that you stand up. Crawl only allows you to move a certain number of squares, not stand up and/or end the prone condition.

As far as I can tell, there is exactly only one way to end the prone condition, and that is by standing up which is a move action, or using another action that lets you stand up such as Acrobat Boots that lets you stand up from prone as a minor action.

Flag May 23, 2013 7:24 AM PDT

May 23, 2013 -- 6:55AM, Mand12 wrote:

"the creature is lying down" is what it means to be prone.  If you are no longer lying down, you are no longer prone.

Tell that to snakes and Gelatenous cubes.

The Prone definition goes on to say "A creature can end this condition on itself by standing up.", which means taking the Stand Up action
Until you take the stand up action (or use another action or item that says "you stand up from prone"), you are still prone.

Flag May 23, 2013 8:14 AM PDT
Hey all,

I need some clarification on the rogue's lvl 6 utillity power Chameleon shown below:

Chameleon    Rogue Utillity 6
At-Will , Martial
Immediate Interrupt    Personal
Trigger:  You are hidden and lose cover or concealment against an opponent
Prerequisite: You must be trained in Stealth.
Effect: Make a Stealth check. Until the end of your next turn, you remain hidden
if a creature that has a clear line of sight to you does not beat your check
result with its Perception check.  If at the end of your turn you do not have
cover or concealment against a  creature, that creature automatically notices
you.

So with this power if I was to loose hidden on my turn (such as stepping into LOS to attack), I could make another stealth roll to remain hidden at least until the end of my turn.
My question is, for the above case does each creature that I would have lost hidden too make an immediate perception roll as a free action (or no action), to see if they beat my stealth attempt, or am I just rolling against their passive perception?  Also if I manage to remain hidden at the end of my turn, do these checks continue every time a creature gets clear LOS to me until the end of my next turn?

Thanks!
Flag May 23, 2013 8:37 AM PDT

May 23, 2013 -- 6:18AM, Mand12 wrote:

You can't be prone while flying, so you can't crawl while flying.

Taking off from a prone position, though, yes you can do that.

From Prone:
The creature is lying down. However, if the creature is climbing or flying, it falls.
The only way the creature can move is by crawling, teleporting, or being pulled, pushed, or slid.

From Crawl:
Action: Move action. A creature must be prone to take this action.
Move: The creature moves up to half its speed.

So, you can use your fly speed with the Crawl action, and fly half of it.  However, once you're not on the ground, you're no longer prone.  You can't, then, start using your non-halved speed, because you're still in the Crawl action.  Crawl does say that you must be prone to take the action, and you were at the time you took it.  It does not say you have to remain prone during the action.

What part of Flying removes the prone condition?  Since you didn't say you were standing up (the only RAW way to no longer be prone), you would still be prone.  Since you are still prone, as soon as you are flying, you fall.  So, you end up moving one square (or maybe not even that) and then fall.

Flag May 23, 2013 8:39 AM PDT
Part of my above question has been answered, as I forgot that immediate actions could not be taken on my turn.

However, I would still ask about the monster making a passive or active perception check when it notices me, and if the stealth (and perception) checks continue until the end of my next turn each time I'm in clear LOS, or if my initial stealth roll applies until the end of my next turn.
Flag May 23, 2013 9:04 AM PDT
Basically, this power lets you hide behind a pillar, then have a chance at remaining hidden when someone walks around the pillar, or equivalent.
Flag May 23, 2013 1:18 PM PDT

May 23, 2013 -- 6:55AM, Mand12 wrote:

"the creature is lying down" is what it means to be prone.  If you are no longer lying down, you are no longer prone.

From the WotC FAQ:
"Can an ooze be knocked prone? In situations like this, DMs are encouraged to change the flavor of what is happening without changing the actual rules governing the situation. For example, the ooze could be so disoriented by the blow that it suffers the same disadvantages as if it had been knocked prone until it spends a move action to stand up effectively shaking off the condition."

If desired, the Fly-crawl topic is discussed here.