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8 months ago ::
Nov 08, 2012 - 10:06PM
#12821
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That's mostly true, but there's an exception that it's useful to know exists.
Some magic items specifically say that the item "can be used as an implement for [classname] powers" or equivalent words. THOSE restrictions remain, if that's how you're getting the ability to use the item as an implement.
For example, a Songblade is - by its own description - an implement for Bard powers only. And if you're able to use your blade as an implement solely because it's a Songblade, that restriction is still in place. On the other hand if you're a Swordmage and pick up a Songblade, well, it's a light or heavy blade, and that's what you have implement proficiency with, so you can use it as an implement for anything. (Why you'd be picking up a Songblade in that case...)
True.
I'm currently trying to build an Eladrin hybrid swordmage/bard and I initially thought that I would have to buy a songblade, but then I realized because of the swordmage's implement proficiency there was no need for one...
Equipping a normal longsword on character builder confirmed it (looking at bard powers' stats).
This seems to be an exception to other proficiencies, like weapon and armor proficiencies, which I believe both classes of an hybrid character need to have proficiency with to be able to use it... (for example chainmail proficiency, if only one class has proficiency with it, then you can't use it...)
If the proficiency comes from the race, then it supersedes and you'll have proficiency regardless of the classes (eg: eladrin's proficiency with longswords).
Please correct me if I'm wrong on this...
Cheers,
Bruno
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8 months ago ::
Nov 08, 2012 - 10:57PM
#12822
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Date Joined:
Apr 16, 2009
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I'm currently trying to build an Eladrin hybrid swordmage/bard and I initially thought that I would have to buy a songblade, but then I realized because of the swordmage's implement proficiency there was no need for one...
Equipping a normal longsword on character builder confirmed it (looking at bard powers' stats).
using the character builder as a rules source is chancy, but in this case it's correct.
This seems to be an exception to other proficiencies, like weapon and armor proficiencies, which I believe both classes of an hybrid character need to have proficiency with to be able to use it... (for example chainmail proficiency, if only one class has proficiency with it, then you can't use it...)
If the proficiency comes from the race, then it supersedes and you'll have proficiency regardless of the classes (eg: eladrin's proficiency with longswords).
Please correct me if I'm wrong on this...
Standard rules for hybrids (not exceptions): you get all the weapon and implement proficiencies that *either* class offers as class features, but only the armor proficiencies that *both* classes offer as class features. Proficiencies from other sources (race, for example) are then added onto this.
"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
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8 months ago ::
Nov 09, 2012 - 3:22AM
#12823
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It's worth pointing out that a Swordmage|Bard isn't going to be a very good character because Bards lose so much from being Hybrids (Armor/Shield prof, Bardic Training, Bardic Virtue, Multiclass Versatility, Song of Rest, Words of Friendship, a trained skill, AND full use of Majestic Word), not to mention that while Bards can be Chat/Int, the Cha does nothing for the Swordmage. While you can choose "lazy" Bard powers thanks to the Skald, the Swordmage doesn't make enough Basic Attacks for that route to do much of anything (it also makes you rather Action Starved)
If what you're trying for is "Defender that can aid allies" then Swordmage|Warlock or strait Paladin would be the way to go. If what you're trying for is "Leader that can defend" then the pure Bard, with the Virtue of Prescience and the various Immediate Interrupt powers (or, if you're looking at Paragon, a Cunning Bard with the Resourceful Magician PP and taking Swordmage Interrupts) is the way to go.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection. My Guides
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8 months ago ::
Nov 09, 2012 - 3:50AM
#12824
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Standard rules for hybrids (not exceptions): you get all the weapon and implement proficiencies that *either* class offers as class features, but only the armor proficiencies that *both* classes offer as class features. Proficiencies from other sources (race, for example) are then added onto this.
Somehow I got the idea that it was for both weapons and armors. Thanks for the clarification.
It's worth pointing out that a Swordmage|Bard isn't going to be a very good character because Bards lose so much from being Hybrids (Armor/Shield prof, Bardic Training, Bardic Virtue, Multiclass Versatility, Song of Rest, Words of Friendship, a trained skill, AND full use of Majestic Word), not to mention that while Bards can be Chat/Int, the Cha does nothing for the Swordmage. While you can choose "lazy" Bard powers thanks to the Skald, the Swordmage doesn't make enough Basic Attacks for that route to do much of anything (it also makes you rather Action Starved)
If what you're trying for is "Defender that can aid allies" then Swordmage|Warlock or strait Paladin would be the way to go. If what you're trying for is "Leader that can defend" then the pure Bard, with the Virtue of Prescience and the various Immediate Interrupt powers (or, if you're looking at Paragon, a Cunning Bard with the Resourceful Magician PP and taking Swordmage Interrupts) is the way to go.
Thanks for the suggestions Zathris.
I'm perfectly aware of the (technical) limitations of this combination, but I'm still doing it, for the sake of roleplaying... I'm not even trying to optimize it to the most, if that goes against the character's background/personality. Some powers/feats/items might look great on the stats but I'm not going to pick it if I can't roleplay it...
Despite 4ed rules seeming to be all powergaming oriented I think powergaming is not yet mandatory and that we're still allowed to try to do some roleplay and play a crippled silly char who keeps fumbling his weapon in combat if that's what gives you fun... 
Cheers,
Bruno
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8 months ago ::
Nov 09, 2012 - 5:16AM
#12825
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Date Joined:
Sep 18, 2012
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Have what amounts to be a simple question. I took a feat called Superior Reflexes. Among other things, I'm supposed to gain combat advantage against all enemies during my first turn in an encounter. As a wizard, I want to use this to my advantage when casting a spell, like, Burning Hands. My DM states that it doesn't work for spell casting, only for melee. I'm sure he's right, since he has tons more experience at this than I, but I cannot find anything in Superior Reflexes or Combat Advantage in the Compendium that covers this. Is it just something I'm supposed to know, or, is there some other place I can look for these tidbits. I selected this feat specifically for the purpose of being able to use it to cast spells (I'm a one-foot tall pixie with a strength of 8, so melee is out of the question!).
Please advise. Thank you.
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8 months ago ::
Nov 09, 2012 - 5:26AM
#12826
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@mrfubar: your DM is wrong.
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8 months ago ::
Nov 09, 2012 - 5:29AM
#12827
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Date Joined:
Sep 18, 2012
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@mrfubar: your DM is wrong.
Well, I appreciate the vote of confidence, but I'm afraid I'm going to need more evidence than saying a random guy online said "you're wrong". Or is it a case of since there is nothing saying it doesn't work with ranged attacks, then it must work?
Not trying to be difficult here, but right now the burden of proof is going to be on me, not on the DM.
Thanks.
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8 months ago ::
Nov 09, 2012 - 5:34AM
#12828
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Date Joined:
Oct 28, 2010
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It's exactly like that - CA says 'you get +2 to hit as long as you can take advantage of it (i.e. you can see the target, mostly)'. Nothing says it doesn;t work with ranged and area attacks, so it does. He may be mistaking Flanking, which only works with ranged attacks from adjacent, or CA from being prone, which doesn;t work for ranged attacks at all IIRC.
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8 months ago ::
Nov 09, 2012 - 5:37AM
#12829
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OK. The rules work like this: "If the rules don't say you can't, then you can." But, he may be confused because combat advantage is usually gained by flanking. This isn't the only way, it's just the most common. However, combat advantage is not limited to melee characters. Casters get CA too. Nothing in the rules states that casters cannot get CA. There's also this rule from the Player's Hanbook: Specific beats general. Generally, combat advantage is gained by flanking. But, the feat you selected specifically grants you combat advantage even if you're not flanking. Therefore, you gain combat advantage. Period.
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8 months ago ::
Nov 09, 2012 - 5:42AM
#12830
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Date Joined:
Sep 18, 2012
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Thank you, both of you. That's something that I can toss back at him. Appreciate the clarification. I'm still a relative beginner, having played for just over a year, and we've switched from Pathfinder to 4e, which made things a bit confusing too. Just trying to fine tune my Wizard a bit. Got the Expanded Spellbook and Destructive Wizardry, and thought Superior Reflexes was a good pick too, until this came up. Was thinking I might have to retrain the Superior Reflexes into Hidden Sniper and take Teeny Target; combined they'd give me CA. Glad I don't have to waste a feat as we level up to 6. Trying to decide between Dual Implement Spellcaster or Orb Expertise.
Anyway, appreciate the clarification!
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