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Sticky: Rules you didn't realize
1 year ago  ::  Jan 13, 2012 - 7:07PM #1331
Neutronium_Dragon
Date Joined: Aug 11, 2006
Posts: 5,812
> A monk can't choose to use the move aspect of one power, and use another power
> for attack

  Actually, he can, as long as the other power isn't a full discipline power.
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 13, 2012 - 7:09PM #1332
Undrhil
  • Dragon Slayer
Date Joined: Jan 2, 2007
Posts: 4,313

Jan 13, 2012 -- 7:07PM, Neutronium_Dragon wrote:


> A monk can't choose to use the move aspect of one power, and use another power
> for attack

Actually, he can, as long as the other power isn't a full discipline power.




Or if he spends an action point, he can use another Full Discipline power.

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1 year ago  ::  Jan 14, 2012 - 6:55AM #1333
LordOfWeasels
Date Joined: Apr 6, 2009
Posts: 7,862

Jan 13, 2012 -- 6:33PM, Rpetiger wrote:

#10

There are still full round actions, of a sort. This however is exclusively to the monk class (Full dicipline), which chooses one power, and makes use of it both for movement and for standard actions. A monk can't choose to use the move aspect of one power, and use another power for attack




No, wrong.  A Monk can totally use any other non-Full Discipline power to attack (or move), and he acn switch Full Disciplines with an action point.  Regardless, this is NOTHING LIKE a "full-round action" in the D20 sense.

Jan 13, 2012 -- 6:33PM, Rpetiger wrote:

#55

A fighters Combat Challenge CAN interrupt a shift from an enemy, if that fighter also has Combat Superiority.




No, wrong.  Combat Challenge will interrupt a shift, true, but you're referring to Combat Superiority and the ability to *stop* a move - and Combat Superiority can never, ever, ever apply to a Combat Challenge attack. Combat Challenge provides IMMEDIATE attacks.  Combat Superiority only applies to OPPORTUNITY attacks.

If you somehow got an OA when the enemy shifted, you can stop his shift with Combat Superiority, but that's rare and hard to do.  Combat Challenge attacks are really easy to get when an enemy shifts, but they're IAs, not OAs, and Combat Superiority doesn't apply.

Jan 13, 2012 -- 6:33PM, Rpetiger wrote:

You can't stand up if your prone and immobilized. (True/False)




False.  Nothing about "Immobilised" says you can't stand up, so you can.

Confused about Stealth?  Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?"  You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.

Damage types and resistances:  A working house rule.
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 23, 2012 - 10:54AM #1334
Sr.Chimo
Date Joined: Jan 23, 2012
Posts: 1
#3 - (PHB 59) Powers with a hit that also have an effect still get the benefit of their effect even if the power misses.

Q: What happens if you hit a natural 1? is natural 1 a regular miss? is it considered a "special (critical) miss"?
(if considered a critical miss, does it still trigger the effect)

We had a huge discussion about it the other day with my group.
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 23, 2012 - 11:26AM #1335
Undrhil
  • Dragon Slayer
Date Joined: Jan 2, 2007
Posts: 4,313
A Nat 1 is a miss.  Unless your GM has houseruled something, there are no critical misses in 4e.
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 11:05AM #1336
GormTintreach
Date Joined: Aug 17, 2011
Posts: 5

Jan 23, 2012 -- 10:54AM, Sr.Chimo wrote:

#3 - (PHB 59) Powers with a hit that also have an effect still get the benefit of their effect even if the power misses.

Q: What happens if you hit a natural 1? is natural 1 a regular miss? is it considered a "special (critical) miss"?
(if considered a critical miss, does it still trigger the effect)

We had a huge discussion about it the other day with my group.



If you hit a natural 1, it is up to the DM to decide if it means anything beyond a normal miss. But yeah, if a power has "Hit: Blah blah blah; Effect: Blah Blah" then it still has the effect even on a miss. 

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1 year ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 11:35AM #1337
LordOfWeasels
Date Joined: Apr 6, 2009
Posts: 7,862

Apr 10, 2012 -- 11:05AM, GormTintreach wrote:

Jan 23, 2012 -- 10:54AM, Sr.Chimo wrote:

#3 - (PHB 59) Powers with a hit that also have an effect still get the benefit of their effect even if the power misses.

Q: What happens if you hit a natural 1? is natural 1 a regular miss? is it considered a "special (critical) miss"?
(if considered a critical miss, does it still trigger the effect)

We had a huge discussion about it the other day with my group.



If you hit a natural 1, it is up to the DM to decide if it means anything beyond a normal miss. But yeah, if a power has "Hit: Blah blah blah; Effect: Blah Blah" then it still has the effect even on a miss. 




Actually, natural 1 is just "automatic miss", and it is NOT "up to the DM to decide" if it means anything more.

DMs can add house rules for natural 1s, but that's houseruling.  By the rules, natural 1 means nothing more or less than "miss automatically".  Saying "it's up to the DM" implies that there's a DM's option choice in the existing rules, and there isn't, any more than there's a "a natural 20 automatically kills a PC" DM option.

Confused about Stealth?  Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?"  You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.

Damage types and resistances:  A working house rule.
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 11, 2012 - 10:10AM #1338
Snotagnome2
Date Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 169
It used to be in the rules if you rolled a 1 'something bad happens up the DM to determine' but, obviously, because players kept whining about it a natural 1 is now only a miss.

If you're a good GM I'd recommend putting 'fumbles' back in the game. The GM usually decides the results of a fumble and Savage Worlds plays that mechanic how it was meant to be played. If you're looking for advice on how to 'house rule' a 1 fumble in 4e I'd check out that game system or an earlier edition.

I've found a trend where anything which is a 'disadvantage' to the player has been subtly worked out as the editions go by. It wouldn't suprise me very much if 1's were no longer misses in the future. In the original versions of the game player's had no access to the magic items in the DMG, fumbles were disastrous, you were lucky if your wizard had 3 hp and 1 good spell, and you couldn't pick your ability scores. Some of these changes I feel are improvements. It never hurts to pull out a copy of your old 1e books and play the game by the rules back then. It's like jumping into an icy lake. You lose so much power, and the DM gains so much control it's not even funny.

Don't get me wrong. I really like 4e, it's got some sweet stuff in it.

Hope that helps you guys out.

David L. Dostaler
Author, Challenger RPG a Free Roleplaying Game
David L. Dostaler
Author, Challenger RPG (free)
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 11, 2012 - 10:28AM #1339
LordOfWeasels
Date Joined: Apr 6, 2009
Posts: 7,862

Apr 11, 2012 -- 10:10AM, Snotagnome2 wrote:

It used to be in the rules if you rolled a 1 'something bad happens up the DM to determine' but, obviously, because players kept whining about it a natural 1 is now only a miss.




Actually, they realised that it was a bad rule that wasn't interesting and mostly wasn't fun, so they took it out.

It's like how spellcasters don't automatically win any more, and how level drain doesn't exist any more, and why "save or die" doesn't exist any more:  They were bad rules, that weren't fun.

Apr 11, 2012 -- 10:10AM, Snotagnome2 wrote:

If you're a good GM I'd recommend putting 'fumbles' back in the game.




Whereas if you're good at math, you'll realise that they happen way too often and disproportionately to PCs to be a good idea.

Apr 11, 2012 -- 10:10AM, Snotagnome2 wrote:

Savage Worlds plays that mechanic how it was meant to be played.




Notably,
1)  a roll in Savage Worlds coming up snake eyes only happens *at most* one in 24 times, and that's for an incompetent character.  A competent character gets that result once in 48 times, an excellent character once in 72 - and every single Savage Worlds character has access to bennies to let them say "hmm, that sucks, it didn't happen" and roll again. 
As compared to, say, D&D, where a natural 1 happens 5% of the time and most characters can't avoid it.  Those who can are almost always spending a Daily resource to do it.
2)  the effects of a fumble in Savage Worlds are specifically small and deliberately nonserious.

Apr 11, 2012 -- 10:10AM, Snotagnome2 wrote:

I've found a trend where anything which is a 'disadvantage' to the player has been subtly worked out as the editions go by.




"It turns out life and death on every single flat non-rerollable die roll, not getting to play, needing to rewrite your character multiple times a session, and failing embarassingly a huge percentage of the time, are not fun.  So we don't do those any more."

Apr 11, 2012 -- 10:10AM, Snotagnome2 wrote:

In the original versions of the game player's had no access to the magic items in the DMG, fumbles were disastrous, you were lucky if your wizard had 3 hp and 1 good spell, and you couldn't pick your ability scores.




Yes.  Shaving accidents often resulted in decapitation, the deadliest monster in the monster manual was a housecat, and Gary Gygax directly told people that they shouldn't bother naming their character until it was at least 9th level because there was no point in making that level of investment before then.  Oh, and getting to the "Gary thinks I should pick a name now" level required, according to him, a year of weekly play. 

These are, in fact, examples of why it was a bad system.

Apr 11, 2012 -- 10:10AM, Snotagnome2 wrote:

It never hurts to pull out a copy of your old 1e books and play the game by the rules back then. It's like jumping into an icy lake.




More like playing a slot machine:  no skill, no control, no strategy, no way to affect the odds.

Confused about Stealth?  Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?"  You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.

Damage types and resistances:  A working house rule.
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 11, 2012 - 2:32PM #1340
Snotagnome2
Date Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 169
"Yes.  Shaving accidents often resulted in decapitation, the deadliest monster in the monster manual was a housecat, and Gary Gygax directly told people that they shouldn't bother naming their character until it was at least 9th level because there was no point in making that level of investment before then.  Oh, and getting to the "Gary thinks I should pick a name now" level required, according to him, a year of weekly play."

That's actually pretty epic. I didn't know he said that. Thanks, Lord of Weasels, I'll have to remember that for my games.

Seriously though. If you're a GM you want the players on their toes. Making the game harder for them or 'more random' just forces them to be more creative (an aspect sadly lacking in most games nowadays).

I would actually say the opposite of what you're saying happens when you increase the difficulty. Everyone likes a challenge. Everyone likes an underdog. The tougher the game is, the more challenging, the more fun. Most games nowadays have no chance for character death, there is no challenge, and nothing bad can happen to the characters under any but the most contrived of circumstances.

Sure, the "oops, you're dead" system of the old game was bad, but it was definately challenging to work with. If you have 3 hp and see an orc you're ten times more likely to carefully evaluate your next move. If you're playing 4e and see an orc, you kill it. Can you honestly remember the last time any of your party has run away from an orc, a goblin, or something like that?

Maybe no-one has any creativity left, but when I take away the 'fancy stuff' from my players they make the best of it and you'd be amazed to see how much more role-playing and creativity results.

I've known one player to make elaborate walls, catapults, and exploding flask of oil traps just to fight regular monsters he'd normally just kill in a micro-second in 4e and think nothing of it.

I myself tended to push people off of high places with my 1 hp wizard with 1 useless spell. I took on a 30th level mage and won. Obviously, I didn't rely on my character 'stats' alone to do that. I had to use my brain, my creativity, and my skills as a player.

I'm not trying to say 1e was better than 4e. I personally don't mind ignoring most fumbles. But whenever you cause 'problems' for the players it always forces creativity. If you put fumbles in the game it lets them role-play creatively and make the best of bad situations (like dropping a sword or tripping) instead of just trading off hp damage blow by blow.

Really, I don't care what system you're using, or which rules you want to play with. Every decision is a fine choice depending on your players. A good GM and good players can make the best of any game system and all good players and GMs should always be looking for ways to pump more creativity and role-playing into their games.

I just see fumbles as an "occassional" opportunity for that creativity. I'd ignore it nine times out of ten. It's always the tenth time, however, that people will remember for the rest of their lives. The time they dropped their sword in front of the villain and took him out with a good punch with only 1 hp left. Now 'that's' roleplaying.

David L. Dostaler
Author, Challenger RPG
David L. Dostaler
Author, Challenger RPG (free)
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