That doesn't work RAW because Two-Weapon Flurry can't trigger withThrow and Stabsince when you're making a successful ranged opportunity attack with your primary weapon, you're not holding a melee weapon in each hand anymore and also beecause Throw and Stab's effect is not an opportunity attack, but a melee basic attack and thus cannot trigger Two-Weapon Flurry on latter attack.
Throw and Stab's Effect: You move up to your speed and make a melee basic attack against a creature other than the target.
Two-Weapon Flurry: While holding a melee weapon in each hand, if you make a successful opportunity attack with your primary weapon, you can also make an opportunity attack with your off-hand weapon against the same target (but with a –5 penalty to the attack roll).
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
That doesn't work RAW because Two-Weapon Flurry can't trigger withThrow and Stabsince when you're making a successful ranged opportunity attack with your primary weapon, you're not holding a melee weapon in each hand anymore and also beecause Throw and Stab's effect is not an opportunity attack, but a melee basic attack and thus cannot trigger Two-Weapon Flurry on latter attack.
Throw and Stab's Effect: You move up to your speed and make a melee basic attack against a creature other than the target.
Two-Weapon Flurry: While holding a melee weapon in each hand, if you make a successful opportunity attack with your primary weapon, you can also make an opportunity attack with your off-hand weapon against the same target (but with a –5 penalty to the attack roll).
While on the one hand, I agree with you that CS often says things that make no sense, I do not think this is one of those time. Heavy Blade Opportunity let's you replace the melee basic attack you make with an at-will attack. If you look at the precise wording of Opportunity Attack in the compendium, and simply replace the words melee basic attack with at-will attack it says: An opportunity attack is a melee basic at-will attack. So the ENTIRE at-will attack is an opportunity attack (including it's effects). Its odd that part of the effect is another attack instead of a prone or a slide, but it is still part of the "opportunity attack"
The ranger power "throw and stab" let's you make a ranged attack at one target, move your speed, then make a basic attack against another target.
Heavy Blade Opp (HBO) lets you use an at-will power in place of an opp attack so long as you are wielding a heavy blade.
Two Weapon Flurry let's you make an opportunity attack at -5 to hit when you hit with your main weapon on an opportunity attack.
Seven Fates Archer lets you make ranged attacks instead of melee attacks when you make opportunity attacks.
So if I am a Ranger-Seeker Seven Fates archer, with the aforementioned feats and powers, wielding two drow long knives (thrown offhand heavy blades - lets call them A and B for reference), and an enemy provokes from me, can I:
Activate HBO to let me use Throw and Stab.
Throw my offhand Drow Long Kinfe B at the creature that provoked.
Move my speed to another target and then attack him with a melee basic attack with Drow Long Knife A.
On a hit with Drow Long Knife A, trigger Two Weapon Flurry to take a second opportunity attack (at -5 to hit).
For the second opportunity attack, again use Heavy Blade Opportunity to replace the melee basic with Throw and Stab.
Repeat that cycle until I miss with the melee basic.
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Answer:
"It does appear that as written, this will works. I am going to escalate this along to our be reviewed by our Dungeons and Dragons development team. Do note that you will want to verify this with your Dungeon Master In all cases he does have final say since it is his campaign world you are playing in."
Side note: I play Living Forgotten Realms where the rules as written trump DM fiat. Second side note: I believe that if you are a half-elf versatile master with Magic Missile as your dilettante power and arcane implement proficiency heavy blade, this combo automatically kills every creature in Range 20 (since you need only make a "successful opp attack" and you can substitute a ranged basic attack for a melee basic granted as an opp attack - ie for the "stab"). Anticipating the argument that you cant use Seven Fates Archer that way, let's further assume you take an epic destiny that makes you a ShadarKai for feat purposes and you the Reaper's Touch feat that lets you use magic missile as a melee basic. As soon as any enemy provokes an opp attack, they all die.
I would have to agree with the logic that once you are using throw and stab, you are no longer wielding two weapons and cannot activate two weapon flurry.
However, even if someone were to rule that you could activate two weapon flurry, I don't believe you could activate it again.
The attack granted by two weapon flurry stipulates that it must be made with the off-hand weapon at a -5 penalty. This stipulation is for the entire attack granted by two-weapon flurry.
Two-Weapon Flurry Epic Tier Prerequisite: 21st level, Dex 19, Two-Weapon Fighting Benefit: While holding a melee weapon in each hand, if you make a successful opportunity attack with your primary weapon, you can also make an opportunity attack with your off-hand weapon against the same target (but with a –5 penalty to the attack roll).
Thus, even if you use Throw and Stab with the attack granted by Two Weapon Flurry, you are restricted from using your primary weapon since it specifically only grants you an opportunity attack with your off-hand weapon. Since your off-hand weapon is not your primary weapon, two-weapon flurry cannot reactivate itself. Whether the attack granted by the Effect line is part of the opportunity attacks success or not, it would either:
A: Be a granted second attack, a melee basic attack against a different target, and being no longer part of the opportunity attack cannot activate Two Weapon Flurry.
or
B: Be part of the opportunity attack, and restricted to the off-hand weapon with a -5 penalty and must be made against the target and a different target at the same time. Rules implode at this point...
Easy way to fix it all would just be to have two weapon flurries granted attack be, "as a free action," since it's wording breaks the restriction of one OA per turn and opens the door to wacky scenarios such as this one.
Two-Weapon Flurry Epic Tier Prerequisite: 21st level, Dex 19, Two-Weapon Fighting Benefit: While holding a melee weapon in each hand, if you make a successful opportunity attack with your primary weapon, you can also make an opportunity attack with your off-hand weapon against the same target (but with a –5 penalty to the attack roll).
Thus, even if you use Throw and Stab with the attack granted by Two Weapon Flurry, you are restricted from using your primary weapon since it specifically only grants you an opportunity attack with your off-hand weapon. Since your off-hand weapon is not your primary weapon, two-weapon flurry cannot reactivate itself.
Question: Is Throw and Stab an attack POWER with your offhand weapon? Answer: Yes it is (it specifically requires you to use your offhand weapon).
Question: Does it include the original target of the melee basic (stab1)? Answer: Yes it does.
Therefore the secondary attack includes the correct target and is with your offhand weapon.
I think its more clear if you have a "burst" at-will and dual implement spellcaster. You are technically using both your main hand implement and offhand implement when you use DIS and you are also targetting more than just the first "target," but I dont think anyone would say, gosh you can't use a burst, or gosh you can't get the bonus from your offhand implement.
Question: Is Throw and Stab an attack POWER with your offhand weapon? Answer: Yes it is (it specifically requires you to use your offhand weapon).
No it doesn't require this anywhere in the power. It is likely to be the first attack you'll do as most Thrown are Offhand weapons though, but not necessarly. A Ranger with 2 Thrown weapons could use his main hand weapon first for exemple. For Powers specifically refering to main hand and off-hand, see Twin Strike.
Also, the Effect allow for an Melee Basic Attack against a different target than the one that provoked an Opportunity Attack (the sole target of Throw and Stab), and even though Heavy Blade Opportunity let you use Throw and Stab in place of a Melee Basic Attack when making Opportunity Attacks, the free attack it generate afterward is not Throw and Stab anymore, nor does it still constitude an Opportuntiy Attack.
Finally, Throw and Stab has no Secondary Attacks. For Powers specifically refering to Secondary Attack, see Sudden Strike.
Throw and Stab Ranger Attack 1 You fling a weapon at one foe and then charge another enemy. At-WillMartial, Weapon Standard ActionRanged weapon Requirement: You must be wielding both a thrown weapon and a melee weapon. Target: One creature Attack: Strength vs. AC (thrown weapon) Hit: 1[W] damage. Level 21: 2[W] damage. Effect: You move up to your speed and make a melee basic attack against a creature other than the target.
Question: Is Throw and Stab an attack POWER with your offhand weapon? Answer: Yes it is (it specifically requires you to use your offhand weapon).
No it doesn't require this anywhere in the power. It is likely to be the first attack you'll do as most Thrown are Offhand weapons though, but not necessarly. A Ranger with 2 Thrown weapons could use his main hand weapon first for exemple. For Powers specifically refering to main hand and off-hand, see Twin Strike.
Also, the Effect allow for an Melee Basic Attack against a different target than the one that provoked an Opportunity Attack, and even though Heavy Blade Opportunity let you use Throw and Stab to make an Opportunity Attack, the free attack it generate afterward is not Throw and Stabb anymore, nor does it still constitude an Opportuntiy Attack.
Throw and Stab Ranger Attack 1 You fling a weapon at one foe and then charge another enemy. At-WillMartial, Weapon Standard ActionRanged weapon Requirement: You must be wielding both a thrown weapon and a melee weapon. Target: One creature Attack: Strength vs. AC (thrown weapon) Hit: 1[W] damage. Level 21: 2[W] damage. Effect: You move up to your speed and make a melee basic attack against a creature other than the target.
I was inartful in my use of words. The text is "wielding both a thrown weapon AND a melee weapon", so you are by requirement, wielding two weapons. In order to weild a weapon you must be capable of making an attack with it; in order to make an attack with the weapon in your offhand, it must have the off hand property. Therefore, in order to use Throw and Stab, one of the two weapons you have must be an off-hand weapon. So the Throw & Stab power is an attack (power) with (read as including) your offhand weapon. The entire attack power you use to replace the melee basic is the Opportunity Attack (power). That includes the effects of that power. I admit, it is odd that the effect is, "make an attack", but you would probably agree that if the effect were, "push the target 1 square" and you had a feat that said, "when you make an opportunity attack you can push the target an additional square" you would let the target be pushed 2 squares. I would not argue that the "effect" is it's own seperate opportunity attack (allowing you to use HBO again), but it is PART of the opportunity attack power you made with HBO.
I admit, the problem comes in with the really bizarre wording "successful." Is it successful if the effect succeeds, but the attack misses? I don't know. Sloppy wording WotC. They do that a lot - "if you make a roll you dislike" comes to mind.
I was inartful in my use of words. The text is "wielding both a thrown weapon AND a melee weapon", so you are by requirement, wielding two weapons. In order to weild a weapon you must be capable of making an attack with it; in order to make an attack with the weapon in your offhand, it must have the off hand property. Therefore, in order to use Throw and Stab, one of the two weapons you have must be an off-hand weapon.
Two Weapon Flurry (TWF) is very specific on how you are allowed to make an additional opportunity attack.
Two-Weapon Flurry Epic Tier Prerequisite: 21st level, Dex 19, Two-Weapon Fighting Benefit: While holding a melee weapon in each hand, if you make a successful opportunity attack with your primary weapon, you can also make an opportunity attack with your off-hand weapon against the same target (but with a –5 penalty to the attack roll).
When TWF allows you the opportunity to make an opportunity attack with your off-hand weapon, it is referring to the weapon in your off-hand (as opposed to your primary hand). It makes this distinction by calling it "your off-hand weapon" (referring to the non-primary weapon you are wielding in your off-hand) rather than "an off-hand weapon" (which could be viewed as referring to any weapon with the off-hand property).
Any attempt to interpret this as meaning "a weapon with the off-hand property" rather than "the non-primary weapon you are wielding" breaks the feat (allows you to retrigger the feat over and over with it's granted additional opportunity attack). To interpret it this way would mean that you could use your primary weapon for all attacks granted by TWF (even just a normal melee basic attack) as long as your primary weapon had the off-hand property. Are you aware of this? Because it is what you seem to be attempting to do.
So the Throw & Stab power is an attack (power) with (read as including) your offhand weapon. The entire attack power you use to replace the melee basic is the Opportunity Attack (power). That includes the effects of that power.
The wording of TWF is clear and explicit. It states, you can make an opportunity attack with your off-hand weapon against the same target (but with a –5 penalty to the attack roll). You are again trying to interpret TWF to say something that it isn't saying by attempting to change the word with to including. An attack with your off-hand weapon does NOT mean an attack with your primary weapon while you are wielding two weapons. Nor does it mean an attack with your primary weapon so long as it has the off-hand weapon property.
What it means is: you are granted an attack with the following restrictions: the attack must be made with your off-hand weapon (which by definition is not your primary weapon), the attack must be against the same target as the opportunity attack that caused the effect (see the target line of Stab and Throw to know which target this is) and the attack roll suffers from a -5 penalty. You have the option to do that, because Two Weapon Flurry says can, make an opportunity attack with those restrictions, if you choose to make the opportunity attack you must follow those restrictions for the entire attack.
TWF is poorly written.
First off, it should not grant you an opportunity attack with your off-hand weapon after you've already made an opportunity attack with your primary weapon. That is two opportunity attacks in the same turn, which the rules do not allow. We can call this a case of specific versus general, but really it's a case of a poorly written and (in some interpretations) abusable feat.
I admit, it is odd that the effect is, "make an attack", but you would probably agree that if the effect were, "push the target 1 square" and you had a feat that said, "when you make an opportunity attack you can push the target an additional square" you would let the target be pushed 2 squares. I would not argue that the "effect" is it's own seperate opportunity attack (allowing you to use HBO again), but it is PART of the opportunity attack power you made with HBO.
The extra attack granted by Throw and Stab can be seen as A: yet another (and seperate) opportunity attack, B: part of the opportunity attack granted by TWF, or C: a granted melee basic attack which is not in itself an OA.
If A: you are restricted to one opportunity attack per turn and cannot take the second granted attack (which is in an of itself a case of specific versus general, but can be argued as such for either side). If this is your argument: please state so, so it can be addressed specifically. This does not appear to be your argument, however, so we can move on.
If B: it is part of the opportunity attack and thus restricted to being only with your off-hand weapon (non primary weapon) and subject to a -5 penalty and can only be against the same target and must be made against a different target (Rules implode, specific vs specific...). Even so, it would not be with your primary weapon and thus cannot retrigger TWF.
If C: It's not an OA so will not trigger TWF, is not restricted to your off-hand weapon, and does not suffer the -5 penalty.
I admit, the problem comes in with the really bizarre wording "successful."
A successful attack (in regards to an attack with an attack roll) is an attack roll that hits. Any other interpretation is a pretty blatant attempt to redefine words that have a clear definition. I can't imagine any GM ruling otherwise, or any dev or CS rep telling you any differently.
Is it successful if the effect succeeds, but the attack misses? I don't know. Sloppy wording WotC. They do that a lot - "if you make a roll you dislike" comes to mind.
Right here you sort of give yourself away by referring to the attack and to the effect. A freudian slip perhaps? You clearly draw a distinction between the attack and the effect, when the qualifying questions are:
Is the attack (not the effect) successful; was it an opportunity attack; were you holding a melee weapon in each hand when the attack was successful; was the attack made with your primary weapon?
None of these qualifies refer to any effect of the power, they refer only to the success of the attack.
In conclusion, I highly recommend that if you haven't already, please take this question to the Rules Q&A forum.
@sharkpower - The word "with" is a synonym of the word "including." That is the standard English usage of the word. The word ONLY never appears in the feat at all.
The Rules Compendium says that the word "attack" can be used to refer both to "attack powers" and to "attack rolls." To decide which of these to use in a given situation you have to look at the context and see which makes sense. In this case, the Rules Compendium definition of the term, "opportunity attack" specifically says an opportunity attack is a basic attack. Since a basic attack is a power (not an individual attack line or an attack roll) then all usages of the phrase opportunity attack must be refering to an attack power, not to a roll or the attack line. That is consistently how I use that word in the context of opportunity attacks.
So to deconstruct the feat: 1. While holding a melee weapon in each hand Check. 2. If you make a successful opportunity attack powerwithincluding your primary weapon, "Successful" is undefined. Does it mean "dealt damage with," "delivered an effect with", or "hit with"? There is already a debate on this topic under "ask a simple question." Either way, if you hit with the first part of this combo, then clearly, you are successful. 3. You can also make an opportunity attack power withincluding your off-hand weapon against the same target (but with a –5 penalty to the attack roll). Check the target entry of the attack power you are using. In this case, the target is "one creature," that creature being whoever you threw the weapon at. So the "target" of the new opportunity attack power must be the same (ie you must throw at the same creature in every iteration of this loop).
Thank you for bringing that to my attention though, deconstructing the feat made it more obvious to me that I have to target the same creature every time with the throw, I hadnt thought about that before. In the ridiculous build I posted on the opt. forum, I had assumed I could just go all around the board, when clearly, I need to attack the same creature every time with the throw, limiting my range to "speed number of squares from the first target". It also makes me think maybe I should be hitting my target instead of missing him just to slam the door on the argument that if you dont hit its not a success.
