@sharkpower - The word "with" is a synonym of the word "including." That is the standard English usage of the word. The word ONLY never appears in the feat at all.
Where did you get this reference? It seems lacking, can you include a source so I can go check it out and see if any other information was not included? Here's another dictionary quote for you (my source is Dictionary.com):
The word "with" does not only translate to including. Your supposition that in this context the word with is equivalent to the word including renders the context itself worthless.
Two-Weapon Flurry Epic Tier Prerequisite: 21st level, Dex 19, Two-Weapon Fighting Benefit: While holding a melee weapon in each hand, if you make a successful opportunity attack with your primary weapon, you can also make an opportunity attack with your off-hand weapon against the same target (but with a –5 penalty to the attack roll).
If we change the word with to including, then the feat has become redundant. The feat already requires you to be holding a melee weapon in each hand, which means an opportunity attack "including" your off-hand weapon is already a foregone conclusion since two weapon fighting "includes" your off-hand weapon in-so-far as wielding it grants a bonus to damage rolls.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and hope that your source for the definition of the word with was somehow lacking the above translations numbered 4 and 5. As in: by the use of, or, using.
"To cut with a knife" is the example I'd like to reference. The example given for your use of the word with in this case would be: "Hefoughtwithhisbrotheragainsttheenemy."
Given the context of the feat, which is the equivalent meaning of the word with that we should be using? To cut with a knife certainly sounds eerily similar to "...make a successful opportunity attack with your primary weapon..."
Your interpretation still leads us back to a point I made in my previous post:
To interpret it this way would mean that you could use your primary weapon for all attacks granted by TWF (even just a normal melee basic attack)... My point here: Basically, your reading of TWF doesn't require Throw and Stab for it to be self triggering. Is that your opinion? Could TWF re-trigger itself with a melee basic attack (rather than an at-will such as Throw and Stab) since you can just keep using your primary weapon for the melee basic? That is what you are trying to do, any way you slice it (pun!)
The Rules Compendium says that the word "attack" can be used to refer both to "attack powers" and to "attack rolls." To decide which of these to use in a given situation you have to look at the context and see which makes sense. In this case, the Rules Compendium definition of the term, "opportunity attack" specifically says an opportunity attack is a basic attack. Since a basic attack is a power (not an individual attack line or an attack roll) then all usages of the phrase opportunity attack must be refering to an attack power, not to a roll or the attack line. That is consistently how I use that word in the context of opportunity attacks.
The phrase opportunity attack can be referring to the opportunity action named Opportunity Attack (RC 246) or to the basic attack granted by the opportunity action named Opportunity Attack. Again, I highly recommend if you want a real discussion about this that you take this thread over to the Rules Q&A Forums.
So to deconstruct the feat: 1. While holding a melee weapon in each hand Check. 2. If you make a successful opportunity attack powerwithincluding your primary weapon, "Successful" is undefined. Does it mean "dealt damage with," "delivered an effect with", or "hit with"? There is already a debate on this topic under "ask a simple question." Either way, if you hit with the first part of this combo, then clearly, you are successful. 3. You can also make an opportunity attack power withincluding your off-hand weapon against the same target (but with a –5 penalty to the attack roll). Check the target entry of the attack power you are using. In this case, the target is "one creature," that creature being whoever you threw the weapon at. So the "target" of the new opportunity attack power must be the same (ie you must throw at the same creature in every iteration of this loop).
This use of including was covered above so I'm not going to restate the point I already have made in this post.
Thank you for bringing that to my attention though, deconstructing the feat made it more obvious to me that I have to target the same creature every time with the throw, I hadnt thought about that before. In the ridiculous build I posted on the opt. forum, I had assumed I could just go all around the board, when clearly, I need to attack the same creature every time with the throw, limiting my range to "speed number of squares from the first target". It also makes me think maybe I should be hitting my target instead of missing him just to slam the door on the argument that if you dont hit its not a success.
Happy to help. But seriously: post the topic in Rules Q&A. This thread should really be reserved for the posting of CS responses and I'm starting to feel pretty guilty about dragging this discussion on for as long as we have already here.
You cannot change a word, no matter how similiar, and have a convincing argument. Because you changed a word. The fact that after you changed the word you have a different meaning should highlight that it is a no-no.
Also, TnS doesn't require an off-hand weapon, even implicitly. In fact, it doesn't even require two weapons. Did you not consider a thrown weapon that is also a melee weapon? That satisfies the requirements of the weapon.
I sent in a question about what is a damage roll to CS. I got a response back but I sent in another request to get clarification about why I got the answer I recieved.
An issue has come up about what is considered a damage roll. It is agreed that a damage roll includes the damage from a weapon or an attack power, i.e. 2[W] or 3d6.
However, there is a sentence that brings certain situations and features into question. On page 222 of the Rules Compendium it states: "Whenever a power or other effect requires a damage roll, it specifies which dice to roll and how many of them."
Does the "other effect" portion of the sentence include game features such as sneak attack, hunter's quarry and warlock's curse? Does it mean that those features add a damage roll to powers that otherwise would not have one?
For example, Duelist's Flurry(I could have the name wrong) does not have a damage roll, it does a flat amount of damage equal to your Dexterity modifier however, you have the option of adding your sneak attack damage to it even if you do not meet the qualifications of using it otherwise. In this case, does Duelist's Flurry now have a damage roll and there for get any modifiers to damage rolls that would apply such as those that apply with the weapon keyword?
Another situation: Monk Flurry of Blows is an attack power by definition of the Rules Compendium, pg 90. You multiclass into swordmage and take the Malec-Keth Janissary Paragon Path. The level16 feature is to add 1d4 damage(of a certain type) to all your attacks. Would you add this to the Monk Flurry of Blows and would this be considered adding a damage roll to Flurry of Blows? If a Tiefling did the situation mentioned, and had Hellfire Blood(+1 attack and damage rolls with fire) and added 1d4 fire damage to Flurry of Blows, would they get 1d4(level 16 feature)+1(Hellfire Blood) instead of just 1d4 fire damage?
Another situation: A level 11 Tiefling Wizard has Magic Missile, Hellfire Blood, Arcane Admixutre(Adding Fire to Magic Missile), and Inescapable Force. If the Wizard hit an intangible target with magic missile, would it just have the +1d10 from Inescapable Force or would it have +1d10(Inescapable Force)+1(Hellfire Blood).
Basically, does rolling dice to determine the damage a power/feat/feature adds to another power/feat/feature count as a damage roll or adding a damage roll and therefore allowing all powers/feats/features that increase a damage roll to be applied to that power/feat/feature.
Q: Does rolling dice to determine the damage a power/feat/feature adds to another power/feat/feature count as a damage roll or adding a damage roll and therefore allowing all powers/feats/features that increase a damage roll to be applied to that power/feat/feature?
A: The latter. So, as you described in the example you provided, the Tiefling Wizard would have +1d10 +1
And yes, I know some are going to say that Customer Service is not a rules source but you have to start somewhere. This is just where I started. I will post when I get another reponse.
Edit: I just recieved a response regarding clarification
Is it warlock's curse damage(just an example) considered a damage roll due to the part in the Rules Compendium that states "other effects require a damage roll, it specifies which dice to roll and how many of them"? Trying to get clarification to remove any possible ambiguity.
Thanks for writing back! Ambiguity is a big part of D&D. It allows for more interesting stories, thrilling interpretations, and daring acts.That said, warlock's curse damage is considered part of the damage roll.
I'm trying to ask about a base rules question, and am attempting to construct a situation to illustrate the basic question. Please excuse any small errors in the construction. (Specifically, the exact wording of the "Horned Helm" might make the specific example irrelevant. Or might not. Please ignore that initially)
A Shadar-Kai wizard with a 22 Int, the "Reaper's Touch" feat, a +3 implement, and a heroic tier "Horned Helm" charges someone, and uses "Magic Missile" instead of his melee basic attack. How much damage does he do?
6(Int)+3(enh)+1d6 = 1d6+9 The theory here would be that Magic Missile, the power, lacks a damage roll. So even though you are in fact rolling dice to determine damage, that's extra damage and doesn't alter the inherent property of Magic Missile. So you do what Magic Missile says, and then add 1d6 for the Horned Helm.
2. 6(Int)+3(enh)+3(enh)+1d6 = 1d6+12 The theory here would be that, now that you've added 1d6 from the horned helm, the damage expression has changed from being a flat damage expression to a rolled one. And now that you've made it a rolled damage expression, the enhancement bonus from the implement applies. (RC: 283. "A magic implement adds an enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and damage ROLLS of attack powers used with the implement")
Magic Missile does Int_Mod plus enhancement bonus, and is deliberately not a rolled damage roll as a balancing factor for it's accuracy. Adding a damage roll greatly increases the number of game elements that can then apply.
As another example, consider "Brutal Barrage". Normally it only does Con-Mod damage, but if you can add a damage roll (say, via "Malec-Keth Janissary"'s level 16 feature), you then can also add enhancement bonuses and focus bonuses and so on.
The definition of "damage roll" says "a roll of a die or dice to determine damage dealt by a power or some other effect.". So the basic question is 'Does extra damage from a Horned Helm or class feature qualify as an effect, and if so, how does that make the 2nd sentence parse?"
I will be happy to answer these questions for you!
A Shadar-Kai wizard with a 22 Int, the "Reaper's Touch" feat, a +3 implement, and a heroic tier "Horned Helm" charges someone, and uses "Magic Missile" instead of his melee basic attack. How much damage does he do?
1d6+9 is correct. The damage from the Horned Helm is extra damage and so would apply whenever you deal damage. Not just when you make a damage roll. Even though it is extra damage it is still all from one power so you will only add the enhancement bonus once. Normally you wouldn't be able to add the enhancement bonus, however Magic Missile specifically lets you. If it didn't then you would still get to add the enhancement bonus to the roll since the extra damage is rolled dice.
As another example, consider "Brutal Barrage". Normally it only does Con-Mod damage, but if you can add a damage roll (say, via "Malec-Keth Janissary"'s level 16 feature), you then can also add enhancement bonuses and focus bonuses and so on.
This is correct. If you can add extra rolled damage then you will get to add all game elements that can add to a damage roll. Of course each individual DM is free to modify these rules as they see fit!
Please let me know if you have any other questions!
Raymond
My reply/followup: ("Really? That's a really bad idea...") Spoiler:Show
Could you please attempt to address this question? (same question, different rules quote aspect)
The definition of "damage roll" is "a roll of a die or dice to determine damage dealt by a power or some other effect. Modifiers to a damage roll apply to the entire roll, not to each die rolled."
In my example of Reaper's Touch, isn't the "damage roll" the extra damage from the horned helm? If that's a damage roll, then the modifiers (like enhancement) apply to that roll. And then also apply to the total damage expression because Magic Missile says they do. Why don't they stack?
If the extra damage from the Horned Helm ISN'T the damage roll, then why does MM's damage in this case considered a damage roll?
Overall, Please run this by a developer... cause...
Werebear(new dragon theme) with Claw Gloves, frost weapon, new paragon +3/4 elemental focus feat, dragon shard, iron armbands
BB goes from being "Con*4" to "(Con+1d10+enhancement+feat+shard+item)*4". (or from ~40 or so depending on the level to 150 or so, depending on additional support). And it gets trivially easy to build a character that can kill elites with one basically at-will attack sequence. (And easy to build a character that can kill solos with at-will attack sequences).
This ruling does really bad things to game balance. (And while yes, I'm frequently the DM, I also run a lot of LFR, which has a more "Rules-as-Written" bent to it as part of the social contract)
Thanks for contacting us here at Wizards of the Coast! The Horned Helm would not grant you a damage roll because it's ability only states the following:
Your charge attacks deal 1d6 extra damage. Level 16: Deal 2d6 extra damage Level 26: Deal 3d6 extra damage
This would be damage added on to a preexisting damage roll you would already be rolling. This does not grant you a roll.
In addition, I will send your feedback on the the interactions between some of the new themes and paragon paths on to the appropriate team for review. I hope this helps, and have a nice day!
Kate
"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima
I'm trying to ask about a base rules question, and am attempting to construct a situation to illustrate the basic question. Please excuse any small errors in the construction. (Specifically, the exact wording of the "Horned Helm" might make the specific example irrelevant. Or might not. Please ignore that initially)
A Shadar-Kai wizard with a 22 Int, the "Reaper's Touch" feat, a +3 implement, and a heroic tier "Horned Helm" charges someone, and uses "Magic Missile" instead of his melee basic attack. How much damage does he do?
6(Int)+3(enh)+1d6 = 1d6+9 The theory here would be that Magic Missile, the power, lacks a damage roll. So even though you are in fact rolling dice to determine damage, that's extra damage and doesn't alter the inherent property of Magic Missile. So you do what Magic Missile says, and then add 1d6 for the Horned Helm.
2. 6(Int)+3(enh)+3(enh)+1d6 = 1d6+12 The theory here would be that, now that you've added 1d6 from the horned helm, the damage expression has changed from being a flat damage expression to a rolled one. And now that you've made it a rolled damage expression, the enhancement bonus from the implement applies. (RC: 283. "A magic implement adds an enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and damage ROLLS of attack powers used with the implement")
Magic Missile does Int_Mod plus enhancement bonus, and is deliberately not a rolled damage roll as a balancing factor for it's accuracy. Adding a damage roll greatly increases the number of game elements that can then apply.
As another example, consider "Brutal Barrage". Normally it only does Con-Mod damage, but if you can add a damage roll (say, via "Malec-Keth Janissary"'s level 16 feature), you then can also add enhancement bonuses and focus bonuses and so on.
The definition of "damage roll" says "a roll of a die or dice to determine damage dealt by a power or some other effect.". So the basic question is 'Does extra damage from a Horned Helm or class feature qualify as an effect, and if so, how does that make the 2nd sentence parse?"
I will be happy to answer these questions for you!
A Shadar-Kai wizard with a 22 Int, the "Reaper's Touch" feat, a +3 implement, and a heroic tier "Horned Helm" charges someone, and uses "Magic Missile" instead of his melee basic attack. How much damage does he do?
1d6+9 is correct. The damage from the Horned Helm is extra damage and so would apply whenever you deal damage. Not just when you make a damage roll. Even though it is extra damage it is still all from one power so you will only add the enhancement bonus once. Normally you wouldn't be able to add the enhancement bonus, however Magic Missile specifically lets you. If it didn't then you would still get to add the enhancement bonus to the roll since the extra damage is rolled dice.
As another example, consider "Brutal Barrage". Normally it only does Con-Mod damage, but if you can add a damage roll (say, via "Malec-Keth Janissary"'s level 16 feature), you then can also add enhancement bonuses and focus bonuses and so on.
This is correct. If you can add extra rolled damage then you will get to add all game elements that can add to a damage roll. Of course each individual DM is free to modify these rules as they see fit!
Please let me know if you have any other questions!
Raymond
My reply/followup: ("Really? That's a really bad idea...") Spoiler:Show
Could you please attempt to address this question? (same question, different rules quote aspect)
The definition of "damage roll" is "a roll of a die or dice to determine damage dealt by a power or some other effect. Modifiers to a damage roll apply to the entire roll, not to each die rolled."
In my example of Reaper's Touch, isn't the "damage roll" the extra damage from the horned helm? If that's a damage roll, then the modifiers (like enhancement) apply to that roll. And then also apply to the total damage expression because Magic Missile says they do. Why don't they stack?
If the extra damage from the Horned Helm ISN'T the damage roll, then why does MM's damage in this case considered a damage roll?
Overall, Please run this by a developer... cause...
Werebear(new dragon theme) with Claw Gloves, frost weapon, new paragon +3/4 elemental focus feat, dragon shard, iron armbands
BB goes from being "Con*4" to "(Con+1d10+enhancement+feat+shard+item)*4". (or from ~40 or so depending on the level to 150 or so, depending on additional support). And it gets trivially easy to build a character that can kill elites with one basically at-will attack sequence. (And easy to build a character that can kill solos with at-will attack sequences).
This ruling does really bad things to game balance. (And while yes, I'm frequently the DM, I also run a lot of LFR, which has a more "Rules-as-Written" bent to it as part of the social contract)
Thanks for contacting us here at Wizards of the Coast! The Horned Helm would not grant you a damage roll because it's ability only states the following:
Your charge attacks deal 1d6 extra damage. Level 16: Deal 2d6 extra damage Level 26: Deal 3d6 extra damage
This would be damage added on to a preexisting damage roll you would already be rolling. This does not grant you a roll.
In addition, I will send your feedback on the the interactions between some of the new themes and paragon paths on to the appropriate team for review. I hope this helps, and have a nice day!
Kate
You would have been better off asking about adding more than just implement enhancement to Magic Missile since Magic Missile allows you to add the Implement enhancement already as part of the power. A better question would have been whether a Pyromancer Shader-kai with Reaper's Touch and Magic Missile Arcane Admixtured with Fire and set up with a horned helm would get to add his Pyromancer Apprentise bonus to this Magic Missile on a charge.
On the second answer, that's just crazy talk. The Horned Helm is letting you roll a die to determine damage.
I asked about a tiefling wizard with MM and arcane admixture fire to MM and hellfire blood using inescapable force on an insubstantial target and was told that it would be +1d10(inescapable force)+1(hellfire blood).
I am sure I prolly have the name wrong but it is the paragon feat that causes force attacks to do full damage and add 1d10 vs insubstantial enemies.
The confusion boils down to the wording of the Hit line A B ''and'' C seems inclusive (Shadow Fire D379 pg. 30 also use word ''and'') compared to Shadow Darts (D379 pg. 20) who use the word A, B ''or'' C as a exclusion statement.
Thanks,
Yan
Response Via Email (Support Agent)
05/08/2012 02:36 PM
Hello Yan,
Thank you for contacting us. The word "and" in this case isn't inclusive. If you hit with all three attack rolls you would deal 3d8 + Dexterity modifier damage. If you have any other questions please feel free to contact us.
To login to your account, or update your question please click here.
Steve Online Response Crew Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries) Monday-Sunday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST
Is the post feedback wrong? Or am I missing something?
Yeah, i think it so but my GM is a super stubborn guy and, certainly, it ruined my Daggermaster rogue...
It's a joke that a critical on a dagger does (without feats invested of course) only 3 or 4 damage points over a normal hit.
I send another question (about how a barbarian applies his damage on a critical hit) and i'm waiting the answer but, well, it ruined my PC (although if the costumer question is positive about maximizing sneak attack he (my GM) would not applies it and "houseruling" a stupid application of critical hits)
