Edit: Updated March 2 based on follow-up question.
Do the new MP2 powers require normal hiding prereqs (total cover/conceal) or work as written without the prereqs: (Answer: A power granting a stealth/hide check still has all the requirements as found in the revised stealth rules. When using Fleeting Ghost or Gloaming Cut, you still need superior cover or total concealment to make the check.) Does the Cunning Sneak rogue feature (MP2) require a "move action", or does it trigger on powers that allow movement? (Answer: CS initially said it does trigger on powers that allow movement - still have hiding end as normal. In the last post, when I pressed for this, they said they would not be able to answer until official FAQ or errata are provided)
Does Fleeting Ghost allow hiding without the normal cover/concealment? Answer: No. The power still requires that you have total cover/concealment before you could hide. A Cunning Sneak would only need some cover/conceal if they moved enough squares to trigger their feature. Fleeting Ghost is also clarified as not working with running.
Here are some examples of how this works, based on the final discussion:
A rogue takes a move action. If the rogue is not a Cunning Sneak but has Fleeting Ghost, they do not take a penalty for the check (unless they run, in which case they take the normal -10 penalty). They still need total concealment or superior cover to hide. If the rogue is a Cunning Sneak and they moved at least 3, they can attempt to hide if they have any concealment/cover. In addition, they could run and the penalty would only be -5. There is no reason for the Cunning Sneak rogue to have Fleeting Ghost, as it provides no benefit over the class feature.
A rogue uses Gloaming Cut, the At-Will from MP2. A rogue without the Cunning Sneak feature would need total cover/concealment to attempt to hide. A rogue with the Cunning Sneak feature that shifts at least 3 squares (having Int 16 or better) could try to hide with any cover/concealment.
A rogue uses a power that grants movment but does not provide a stealth check: The Cunning Sneak may gain an advantage with powers that grant a move of 3 or more and do not specifically allow a hide check. Here, it is possible that the wording for Shadowy Rogue is intended to allow the CSneak rogue to make a hide check (of course needing to meet the rules for remaining hidden). It is also not clear whether this would apply only to the rogues' own powers or also to powers from allies or even foes. Customer Service has now said they cannot answer this until a FAQ or errata has been issued. (Other rogues do not have this potential benefit with movement granted from powers.) As an example, a Rogue using Acrobat's Blade Trick (MP2 p59) and hitting three targets would shift 3 but only get to hide if they were a Cunning Sneak, assuming CS does not change this.
Distilled, Cunning Sneaks do enjoy a strong advantage in being hidden. For ranged rogues, this can be a strong benefit to gaining CA at range. Some type of cover is prevalent in almost all encounters and the Cunning Sneak can use a move action to hide behind that cover. The caveat is that they must end a move away from their starting point, and thus really need either a power that moves them (and then move back to cover) or need two sources of cover. The Cunning Sneak can also pursue ways to gain concealment, such as magic items, so they can remain hidden even without cover.
Rogues that do not take the Cunning Sneak feature can still find some strong benefits from the new MP2 powers. Several powers, such as Fleeting Spirit Strike, allow movement similar to Deft Strike, and thus allow you to move out from behind superior cover / total concealment and gain sneak attack as part of the same attack.
The original answers (often containing parts of my questions and sometimes containing information CS then reversed) followed by my questions are below.
Answer from CS: 1. How are the MP2 powers that grant hiding supposed to work? A: They are to work exactly as written.
2. If a power such as Gloaming Cut (MP2 57) states you can shift and "make a stealth check to become hidden", does this remove the requirement for superior cover or total concealment? A: It does remove the requirement for having superior cover or total concealment. However, it does not remove the effects of Remaining Hidden (MP2 pg 57).
3. Does movement granted by a power count as ending a move action for purposes of Cunning Sneak? A: So long as the power counts as your movement.
4. Cunning Sneak says that if you end a move action and have moved at least 3 squares you can make a stealth check with only normal cover/conceal. A power like Gloaming Cut is not involving a move action (it grants the user a shift equal to Int). Yet, in the Shadowy Rogue description on p56, it says "Any powers that let you move as part of your attack are excellent choices, because they can help you become hidden using the Cunning Sneak class feature." How is that possible, since Cunning Sneak requires ending a move action? A: You still end your move as part of the attack.
My question: I have two questions related to Cunning Sneak and hiding as presented in MP2.
1. How are the MP2 powers that grant hiding supposed to work?
There is some confusion on the boards regarding stealth rules and the new MP2 powers that allow rogues to hide.
If a power such as Gloaming Cut (MP2 57) states you can shift and "make a stealth check to become hidden", does this remove the requirement for superior cover or total concealment?
A power like Distracting Shot (MP2 59) states the rogue must have superior cover and concealment, but Shadow Strike on the same page does not stipulate this requirement.
Please let us know if these powers are intended to grant a hide check without needing the normal prerequisites.
2. Does movement granted by a power count as ending a move action for purposes of Cunning Sneak?
Cunning Sneak says that if you end a move action and have moved at least 3 squares you can make a stealth check with only normal cover/conceal. A power like Gloaming Cut is not involving a move action (it grants the user a shift equal to Int). Yet, in the Shadowy Rogue description on p56, it says "Any powers that let you move as part of your attack are excellent choices, because they can help you become hidden using the Cunning Sneak class feature." How is that possible, since Cunning Sneak requires ending a move action?
Follow-up question and answer on Cunning Sneak and Fleeting Ghost:Show
Answer from CS: Let me clarify my statement for your. Any normal movement, be it from a power or from a move action, can count as ending your movement. Its very black and white. Think to yourself, "Did I move this turn?", if yes, then you can use the Cunning Sneak ability. One think I think you should remember is that this is a game and the DM has the final say on all things for the running of the game.
I have answered the rest of your questions here: 1. Does this mean that a rogue with Fleeting Ghost (maybe even without Cunning Sneak) would always get to make a stealth check to hide after they move - even without any cover/concealment? A: Yes you can, but your must still follow the Remaining Hidden rules. You still have to 1. Keep out of Sight, 2. Keep Quiet, 3. Keep still, and 4. Don't attack. Think of it this way. Your in the middle of a well lit room, you make your Stealth check to become hidden (which for arguments sake you pass) but your still in the middle of the room and the enemy still have line of sight to you. The rules say you can become hidden, but then you fail to Remain Hidden as per the Stealth rules. I have included the entire text of the updated Stealth rules at the bottom of the email.
2. Given the wording on Gloaming Cut and similar powers meaning exactly what they write... either Fleeting Ghost is very powerful allowing us to always move and hide without _any_ cover/concealment, or it needs to be adjusted based on the MP2 changes. A: Again, please refer to the first question and the Stealth rules.
My question: Hi, I would like to follow up on this item.
When you say "So long as the power counts as your movement", what does this mean? Must it say "move action"? "Must it say "move" or "movement"?
Would a power granting a "shift" work, such as Spinning Blade Leap on p59 (shift your speed before and after the attack - potentially letting you hide before and after the attack)?
Must the power be from MP2, or would Artful Dodger powers from the PH that grant some type of movement/shift also provide the opportunity to hide due to Cunning Sneak?
A strict interpretation would say that only "move action" will suffice. The text under Shadowy Rogue suggests any movement at all would be ok. (For what it is worth, my expectation would be that Cunning Sneak text is correct, and you must take a move action to be able to ignore hiding. Then, the powers must either specifically provide a "move action" or state that they allow you to make a stealth check. Otherwise, any movement at all would allow you to hide if the movement was three (or two with a feat).
As an additional question, the rogue At-Will utility 2, Fleeting Ghost, says "You can move your speed and make a Stealth check. You do not take the normal penalty from movement on this check." This is, in fact, a move action. And it allows a stealth check. Does this mean that a rogue with Fleeting Ghost (maybe even without Cunning Sneak) would always get to make a stealth check to hide after they move - even without any cover/concealment? Given the wording on Gloaming Cut and similar powers meaning exactly what they write... either Fleeting Ghost is very powerful allowing us to always move and hide without _any_ cover/concealment, or it needs to be adjusted based on the MP2 changes.
Thanks for your time. I realize these are difficult questions and I'm a big fan and customer.
Second follow-up question on Fleeting Ghost and powers saying you can hide:Show
Answer from CS: 1. Any power in any source that grants a rogue some form of movement (shift/move/whatever, even if not a move action) lets a Cunning Sneak rogue make a hide check if they moved 3 or more as part of that power. A: Correct. 2. If the power specifically says that the rogue can make a hide check or stealth check, then any rogue (not just a Cunning Sneak) could attempt to hide. BOTH rogues would make the hide check and remain hidden if they have any form of cover/concealment that is not another creature. A: Correct. 3. Fleeting Ghost removes the penalty for moving and grants ANY rogue a stealth check. If they have ANY form of cover, both a Cunning Sneak and any other type of rogue would be able to remain hidden. A: Correct. 4. If that is the case, then what is the point of the Cunning Sneak feature? A: Fleeting Ghost only affect the normal advancement of the rogue, 6 squares. If the Rogue runs under Fleeting Ghost he would still suffer the -10 to Stealth check. However the Cunning rogue reduces that run check to a -5. Cunning Sneak and Fleeting Ghost are very similar and I feel that is where the confusion lies. As a Cunning Sneak rogue you may not wish to take Fleeting Ghost as an At-Will power, as your base ability is better, where as a regular rogue, would take the Fleeting Ghost power to supplement his stealth movement.
My Question: First, thank you for being patient with me. I'm sorry to keep asking questions. I am genuinely confused as to the benefit and how to run things correctly as a player and judge.
I think what I hear you saying is that" - Any power in any source that grants a rogue some form of movement (shift/move/whatever, even if not a move action) lets a Cunning Sneak rogue make a hide check if they moved 3 or more as part of that power. - If the power specifically says that the rogue can make a hide check or stealth check, then any rogue (not just a Cunning Sneak) could attempt to hide. BOTH rogues would make the hide check and remain hidden if they have any form of cover/concealment that is not another creature. - Fleeting Ghost removes the penalty for moving and grants ANY rogue a stealth check. If they have ANY form of cover, both a Cunning Sneak and any other type of rogue would be able to remain hidden.
If that is the case, then what is the point of the Cunning Sneak feature? Any rogue could choose the Brutal or Artful or other feature and the Fleeting Ghost power and have exactly the same benefit. Gloaming Cut is exactly the same in the hands of a Cunning Sneak rogue as in the hands of a Brutal rogue. Moving is exactly the same with a Cunning Sneak rogue as for a Brutal rogue that has Fleeting Ghost.
The sole exception seems to be that Cunning Sneak rogues would gain the ability to hide with a power that grants movement but does not grant making a stealth check. For example, a Cunning Sneak that is moved 3 by another PC's power or by their own power that grants movement but not hiding (such as the Daily 1 Spinning Blade Leap in MP2 p59) would be able to make hide checks. A non-CSneak rogue would not because those powers do not grant them to make a hide check.
Am I understanding things correctly?
Third follow-up question on Fleeting Ghost and powers saying you can hide:Show
Answer from CS: I spoke with R&D and confirmed that Fleeting Ghost and like powers do not circumvent the need for total concealment or superior cover to make a stealth check. If fleeting ghost in particular it is removing the negative to your stealth for moving 3 squares or more. Please let me know if this does not entirely clear up the confusion. My Question: Previously in this incident you wrote: "2. If the power specifically says that the rogue can make a hide check or stealth check, then any rogue (not just a Cunning Sneak) could attempt to hide. BOTH rogues would make the hide check and remain hidden if they have any form of cover/concealment that is not another creature. A: Correct. 3. Fleeting Ghost removes the penalty for moving and grants ANY rogue a stealth check. If they have ANY form of cover, both a Cunning Sneak and any other type of rogue would be able to remain hidden. A: Correct."
a very different ruling: "Fleeting Ghost only allows a character to make a stealth check without taking a move penalty. All the other rules for making stealth checks will apply. You will still need superior cover or total concealment to make this check."
Which ruling is correct? Does any power, such as Fleeting Ghost, which states that you can make a stealth check, mean that, and allow a stealth check to be rolled at that moment? Does it need the rules for making a stealth check, or is it only using the rules for remaining hidden? (In this incident you had said we should use the rules for remaining hidden)
To be clear: 1) Does any power stating "make a stealth check" or similar, does this actually grant a stealth check under the current conditions? Or does the rogue have to meet all normal requirements to attempt that stealth check? 2) Specific example: A rogue (not a Cunning Sneak) uses Fleeting Ghost to move, and they only have cover (not total cover). Do they get to make a hide check? 3) Specific example: A rogue (Cunning Sneak or otherwise) has no Int bonus. They use Gloaming Cut and do not move, but per the power would make a stealth check. Can they make this stealth check if they lack total cover/conceal?
Final follow-up question on Fleeting Ghost and powers saying you can hide:Show
Answer from CS: Glooming cut is affected by the same ruling. A character with the cunning sneak class feature would only have to make it to cover or concealment to make the stealth check instead of the normal total concealment or superior cover. There is an issue that needs clarifying from there. If a cunning sneak with gloaming cut moves three squares because the movement granted by the gloaming cut and ends in cover can he make a stealth check. I will not be able to answer this questions until we have an official FAQ or errata for it. My Question: From what you wrote, powers that grant a hide/stealth check still abide by all normal rules for being able to make that stealth check.
Can you verify for me that powers like Gloaming Cut, which say "and you can make a Stealth check" are not intended to bypass the stealth rules? As an example, a Cunning Sneak rogue with Int +0 using Gloaming Cut would not move the minimum squares to use the class feature and thus would need Superior Cover or Total Concealment to hide with the power. A Cunning Sneak rogue with Int +3 would be able to shift 3 with the power and thus make the stealth check with any cover/concealment (per the class feature). Is this correct?
Last question (we all hope): When you clarified that a power providing movement can trigger the Cunning Sneak feature, does this include movement only from the rogue's own powers? Or does it also include movement caused by an ally's or even a foe's powers?
Assuming I now understand correctly, I think we need errata for the Cunning Sneak feature. When it says "If you end a move action at least 3 squares away from your starting position, you can make a Stealth check to become hidden if you have any concealment or any cover, except for cover provided by intervening allies.", this should be updated to clarify that it isn't only a "move action" and explain that powers work (and whose powers).
Are additional skills for a trap standard actions, as they would normally be if done by a player on their turn? (Answer: Free actions)
Question 1: Are these Additional Skills meant to be options a PC can do on their turn as a standard action as normal? Are they minor actions as a special exception for this being a trap? Or, should a DM allow passive skill use for these Additional Skills? A: They are optional, but are Knowledge checks, which require no action. (pg 179-80 PHB).
Question 2: In the case where a skill like Religion is used, does this again conform to the typical rules for the skill, with Religion being a standard action a PC can use on their turn? Or is it a minor, but on their turn? Or, is a passive check allowed because this is a top-level skill instead of Perception? A: Knowledge checks require no action. The player needs to announce that they are doing a skill check for the trap, but it does not require an action. (pg 179-80 PHB).
Slaying Action says: "If you spend an action point to take an extra action and have already dealt Sneak Attack damage during this round, you can deal the extra damage a second time during this turn."
Cloaked Sniper's Sniper Action says: "When you spend an action point to make a ranged basic attack and you have combat advantage against the target of the attack, you can add your Sneak Attack damage even if you have already dealt Sneak Attack damage during this round. If the attack hits, you can shift 1 square."
Could a rogue with both the Cloaked Sniper path and the Slaying Action feat:
- Take an AP with a ranged basic attack and add their Sneak twice, then attack with a power and their normal standard action, gaining sneak attack a total of three times? - Gain sneak attack three times if they had a way to use more than one Action Point? (Standard power with sneak, AP ranged basic with sneak via path, AP normal power with sneak via feat?
Answer: "Unfortunately, there isn’t an official answer for the situation you describe. I’ve passed along this conversation to the game’s developers."
I asked CustServ yesterday about Fleeting Ghost. The full question (names removed) is here in s-block mode, but I'll clip the relavent bit:
The Fleeting Ghost power basically increase the speed at which you move when stealthed and prevents the -2 penalty. So yes, the stealth check is part of the power and vice versa. You are correct in your understanding for how that Fleeting Ghost effectively allows a character to become hidden with only concealment (not total concealment) - much like a Gnome's reactive stealth power. The character must still maintain concealment/cover (and keep quiet, etc.) to remain hidden (per your answer to 2c).
I have a couple questions about the rogue 2nd level utility Fleeting Ghost:
Fleeting Ghost At-Will Martial Move Action Personal Effect: You can move your speed and make a Stealth check. You do not take the normal penalty from movement on this check.
1) I assume the stealth check enabled by the power is a check to become hidden (or remain hidden if already hidden). The power does not specify the purpose of the stealth check, but at this time the only combat use of Stealth is to become/remain hidden. Is this correct?
2) I'd like to understand the interaction of Fleeting Ghost (FG) with the stealth rules for becoming/remaining hidden. From the Stealth skill:
"Becoming Hidden: You can make a Stealth check against an enemy only if you have superior cover or total concealment against the enemy or if you’re outside the enemy’s line of sight."
"Remaining Hidden: You remain hidden as long as you meet these requirements. Keep Out of Sight: If you no longer have any cover or concealment against an enemy, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy. You don’t need superior cover, total concealment, or to stay outside line of sight, but you do need some degree of cover or concealment to remain hidden. You can’t use another creature as cover to remain hidden."
FG makes no mention of any cover/concealment requirement for the stealth check it enables. I am unclear what happens if I make the check outside of cover/concealment. The way I see it, there are three possibilities:
2a) At the end of my move from FG, I had superior cover or total concealment. In this case, I could have made the stealth check under the normal stealth rules, so I presume I'm hidden.
2b) At the end of my move from FG, I had cover or concealment (but not superior cover or total concealment). In this case, I still make a stealth check (as FG tells me to), even though I would normally not be allowed to without the power. Since I am in cover/concealment, I meet the criteria under "Remaining Hidden", so I stay hidden.
2c) At the end of my move from FG, I have no cover or concealment. As above, I make a stealth check (as FG tells me to). However, since I do not meet the criteria under "Remaining Hidden", I become visible.
I would like conformation that I am dealing correctly with cases 2a-c. In case 2c, I'd also like to know when I become visible. Is it Immediately (i.e. before the end of my turn), or when the next enemy makes a perception check, or some other time?
Thank you for contacting us. Here are the answers I found:
1) I assume the stealth check enabled by the power is a check to become hidden (or remain hidden if already hidden). The power does not specify the purpose of the stealth check, but at this time the only combat use of Stealth is to become/remain hidden. Is this correct? A: No, you are not correct. It is an At-Will power and can be used at any time. This power is based upon you having the Stealth skill. What this power allows is for you to move your speed and make a Stealth check. You do not take the normal penalty from movement on this check. What this means is that normally if you move more than 2 squares during an action, you must make a new Stealth check with a -5 penalty. If you run, the penalty is -10. If any enemy’s passive Perception check beats your check result, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy.(Rules Update 1/19/2010, replaces pg 188 of PHB) Essentially, you get to move your normal movement and make the Stealth check with out the -5 to the skill check, that's all.
2) I'd like to understand the interaction of Fleeting Ghost (FG) with the stealth rules for becoming/remaining hidden. A: See answer 1. I have also included the rules from Stealth for remaining hidden. From the Rules Update: Remaining Hidden: You remain hidden as long as you meet these requirements. Keep Out of Sight: If you no longer have any cover or concealment against an enemy, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy. You don’t need superior cover, total concealment, or to stay outside line of sight, but you do need some degree of cover or concealment to remain hidden. You can’t use another creature as cover to remain hidden. Keep Quiet: If you speak louder than a whisper or otherwise draw attention to yourself, you don’t remain hidden from any enemy that can hear you. Keep Still: If you move more than 2 squares during an action, you must make a new Stealth check with a -5 penalty. If you run, the penalty is -10. If any enemy’s passive Perception check beats your check result, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy. Don’t Attack: If you attack, you don’t remain hidden.
2a) At the end of my move from FG, I had superior cover or total concealment. In this case, I could have made the stealth check under the normal stealth rules, so I presume I'm hidden. A: Correct and you would not have the -5 from the advance to your skill check.
2b) At the end of my move from FG, I had cover or concealment (but not superior cover or total concealment). In this case, I still make a stealth check (as FG tells me to), even though I would normally not be allowed to without the power. Since I am in cover/concealment, I meet the criteria under "Remaining Hidden", so I stay hidden. A: You don’t need superior cover, total concealment, or to stay outside line of sight, but you do need some degree of cover or concealment to remain hidden.
2c) At the end of my move from FG, I have no cover or concealment. As above, I make a stealth check (as FG tells me to). However, since I do not meet the criteria under "Remaining Hidden", I become visible. A: Correct, you would then become visible unless you remain outside of the line of sight for any enemy creatures. This would occur immediately.
Thank you for the prompt response! On my first question, it seems you are agreeing that the Stealth check that is made as part of the power is a stealth check to hide. My only reason for asking this is that other powers, such as the Assassin's Cloak feat, specifically say "make a Stealth check to hide", while Fleeting Ghost just says "make a Stealth check". Please correct me if I am mistaken. Just to clarify, per your answer to 2b, that Fleeting Ghost effectively allows a character to become hidden with only concealment (not total concealment) - much like a Gnome's reactive stealth power. The character must still maintain concealment/cover (and keep quiet, etc.) to remain hidden (per your answer to 2c). Is this correct? Again, thank you for responding!
Reply: The Fleeting Ghost power basically increase the speed at which you move when stealthed and prevents the -2 penalty. So yes, the stealth check is part of the power and vice versa. You are correct in your understanding for how that Fleeting Ghost effectively allows a character to become hidden with only concealment (not total concealment) - much like a Gnome's reactive stealth power. The character must still maintain concealment/cover (and keep quiet, etc.) to remain hidden (per your answer to 2c). Please let me know if you need anymore help!
Bottom line: Please clarify which skill checks can be made only when trained.
I ask for this clarification because only two are marked as (Trained Only). These are "Reduce Falling Damage" (Acrobatics) and "Detect Magic" (Arcana).
However, the flavor text in Arcana and Dungeoneering heavily imply that Dungeoneering Monster Knowledge Checks are Trained Only even though they are not marked that way. The actual lines that imply this are:
From Arcana: "...Also, those trained in the skill have a chance to know something about the mysterious Far Realm (but not about its creatures, which fall under Dungeoneering)."
From Dungeoneering, "...Also, those trained in the skill can identify creatures of the Far Realm that lair and hunt in dungeons and underground settings."
I would note that:
1. This is only an implication that those not trained cannot "identify creatures of the Far Realm..."
and
2. No other skills used for Monster Knowledge Checks have a line like this. It would seem, at a minimum, that Arcana, Nature and Religion can be used untrained for Monster Knowledge Checks, even if not (oddly) Dungeoneering.
So, which is it? Can Dungeoneering be used untrained for Monster Knowledge Checks or not?
Response:
Unfortunately, there isn’t an official answer for the situation you describe. I’ve passed along this conversation to the game’s developers. Hopefully, we’ll see an update or FAQ entry covering it soon, but until then it’s up to the campaign’s Dungeon Master to decide. The DM is always the final arbiter on how they want their campaign to run. Have fun!
A few of the people from my local group were having a conversation about what you can and can't do while using a weapon as an implement (using arcane implement proficiency, for example). I just got a response back from customer service that gives us an answer. My question was about the seemingly contradictory rules in Dragon Magazine 381 on page 36 that says you can use weapon powers while using it as an implement, and the Player's Handbook FAQ which implies that you cannot (16. When you are using a magic weapon as an implement, like a Holy Avenger or a Pact Dagger, what benefits do you get from the weapon? You gain any bonuses listed under Enhancement, Critical and Property.)
This is their response:
A. The FAQ doesn't include the using of a power, because you can't always use the power. Depending on what it is. Mordant Weapon's power you can use as a free action, and all damage dealt with that weapon is acid and poison damage. This works as the implement is the one doing the damage. Other items, may say if something like when you make a melee basic attack add X, that as just one example that won't work with most implement powers.
We all know that this is going to be updated with errata soon, but as of right now we do not know exactly what the errata is.
A fighter's combat challenge (actually, almost every defender's mark ability) triggers when an enemy "...makes an attack that does not include you..."
When the player's handbook defines the type of attacks on page 270 it states, "A melee attack against multiple enemies consists of separate attacks, each with its own attack roll and damage roll."
When an enemy uses a power to make a melee attack that targets multiple creatures and one attack is on the fighter and at least one attack is on something other than the fighter, can the fighter use their combat challenge attack?
Example attacks:
M Maul (standard; at-will) The dire bear makes two claw attacks. If both claw attacks hit the same target, the dire bear makes a secondary attack against the target. Secondary Attack: +13 vs. AC; the target is grabbed (until escape).
or
m Claws (standard; at-will) 2 targets; +13 vs. AC; 2d6 + 5 damage.
If not, how is that wording for "attack" different than, for example, Flame Bracers that have an ability which says, "Power (Daily): Minor Action. Your next successful weapon attack before the end of your next round deals an extra 1d6 fire damage." or the Channel Divinity: Divine Strength power that says, "Effect: Apply your Strength modifier as extra damage on your next attack this turn."?
******************** Page Number: 76 and 270 Book Name: Player's Handbook
Yes, in those cases the fighter can use his combat challenge attack on the creature. The quick way to check if something is multiple attacks or not is to see how many damage rolls it involves. A Ranger with Twin-strike is making two attacks (two attack rolls and two damage rolls). A wizard using fireball to hit two enemies is making one attack (two attack rolls, one damage roll). The Ranger would trigger the combat challenge, but the Wizard would not.
Thanks, and Good Gaming!
Also, an informative quote somebody else on these forums said:
Last month the devs did a rules Q&A over twitter, and I asked pretty much this exact question about powers that perform two attacks, if one is a defender that marked the monster. Here is their answer (consolidated from 3 tweets):
"These specific powers allow you to make two basic attacks, which are seperate. In these specific cases, the defender is not included in the second attack, and the monster will suffer the -2 and any other penalties. This is not the same as a single attack that targets multiple enemies or party members."
Given the post 2 up from me, I recontacted CS about weapons used as implements. Specificly if the radiant/frost weapons can be used to turn all damage delt by a sorcerer or other implement user into that damage type.
Here is the response I got from CS. Answer: Expect an update on this issue shortly. Currently there is no offical CS answer as to if you can use weapon powers when using a weapon as an implement. Ask your DM if it is allowed.
----- Personaly given the dragon artical a ways back about weapons being used as implements can use the powers of the weapon, and no offical CS answer, I would have to go with that it is currently allowed.
I asked CS for a clarification of Fleeting Ghost. My question [---001:002168:24112---]:
A recent Customer Service answer stated that: "Fleeting Ghost effectively allows a character to become hidden with only concealment (not total concealment) - much like a Gnome's reactive stealth power."
I am not clear on what in the wording of this power would allow a character which was not already hidden to become hidden with Concealment instead of Total Concealment. It makes sense that a character which already was hidden and then used the Fleeting Ghost power would only need Concealment to remain hidden, but wouldn't a character that is not hidden before using Fleeting Ghost still need Total Concealment or Superior Cover to hide as per the normal Stealth Rules?
Thanks for your assistance!
The Customer service response:
Fleeting Ghost only allows a character to make a stealth check without taking a move penalty. All the other rules for making stealth checks will apply. You will still need superior cover or total concealment to make this check.
When taking a move action, the Cunning Sneak is the same as any rogue with the level 2 utility Fleeting Ghost. The only difference is that a Cunning Sneak receives only a -5 penalty when running. One with Fleeting Ghost does not gain a benefit when running and thus would be at -10 to their stealth check.
Not completely accurate. While any Rogue can use only regular cover/concealment to REMAIN hidden after Fleeting Ghost, only a Cunning Sneak can use regular cover/concealment to BECOME hidden. That's one key advantage the Cunning Sneak has on a move action over another type of Rogue with Fleeting Ghost.
D&DN Paladin: Half-Fighter, half-Cleric, all useless. D&DN Ranger: Third-Fighter, third-Rogue, third-Druid, all useless. With one interesting concept that has its execution botched.
