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A Duergar Shock Trooper (from Thunderspire Labyrinth) has a power:

Expand (when first bloodied; encounter) * Polymorph
The duergar shock trooper becomes Large, occupying 4 squares instead of 1. Any creature in the squares that the shock trooper comes to occupy are pushed 1 square. The shock trooper also gains reach 2 and a +5 bonus to its melee damage rolls. The shock trooper remains Large until the end of the encounter.

What if an expanding duergar is next to a dwarf? Now, I can see that the dwarf resists the push, but now I have 2 creatures occupying 1 square, illegally.

Easy way out, the duergar gets pushed back.

Suppose the duergar is between a dwarf and a wall.

OR, suppose 2 dwarves are flanking a duergar when it expands.... then what?

I thought there was some rule that explains what to do in case creatures end up in illegal spaces, but I can't find it. Maybe I'm thinking about the "Standing Up" rule, or maybe I'm thinking 3rd edition...

They're all just squeezing in the same space unless the dwarf chooses to move (which would probably be the better idea). That'd be my first reaction.

i think precedence would apply to the duergar for a few reasons. First and foremost is the PnP ground rule of the specific supersedes the general, in this case the specific instance of the duergar polymorphing itself would supersede the general rule of dwarves being resistant to forced movement

and secondly, try to look at the situation rationally. Is there no creature strong enough to open a door with a dwarf on the other side? clearly the rule was not meant to be a blanket effect that threw a wrench in the game's operation, and if it should ever provide a situation like the one you are in, negate the dwarven ability (or tell the player he was moved 2 squares, and let it move down to 1)

Shadow Imp wrote:

A Duergar Shock Trooper (from Thunderspire Labyrinth) has a power:

Expand (when first bloodied; encounter) * Polymorph
The duergar shock trooper becomes Large, occupying 4 squares instead of 1. Any creature in the squares that the shock trooper comes to occupy are pushed 1 square. The shock trooper also gains reach 2 and a +5 bonus to its melee damage rolls. The shock trooper remains Large until the end of the encounter.

What if an expanding duergar is next to a dwarf? Now, I can see that the dwarf resists the push, but now I have 2 creatures occupying 1 square, illegally.

Easy way out, the duergar gets pushed back.

Suppose the duergar is between a dwarf and a wall.

OR, suppose 2 dwarves are flanking a duergar when it expands.... then what?

I thought there was some rule that explains what to do in case creatures end up in illegal spaces, but I can't find it. Maybe I'm thinking about the "Standing Up" rule, or maybe I'm thinking 3rd edition...

The common sense solution here would seem to be that the duergar can't expand unless it will end up in 4 legal spaces once it does so. The other option is to allow the duergar to expand as long as it then moves to a legal space immediately. I am inclined to rule for the former, as it's within what passes for RAW on this, and rewards the PCs for smart tactical moves that keep the enemy boxed into a space it can't expand into.

The rules for occupying the space of a prone ally allow the ally to shift 1 square before standing as part of the 'Stand Up' action.

-Lefty

tehsquirrely wrote:

They're all just squeezing in the same space unless the dwarf chooses to move (which would probably be the better idea). That'd be my first reaction.

^ this

Lefty brought up the rule I was thinking of. You get to shift a square when standing up to avoid prone allies from illegally occupying the same squares. This is not a case of anyone being prone but the practice remains the same.

I'm a fan of either saying the polymorphed duegar "pops out" from between them, or he is now squeezing until he moves from between them.

I'd like to see what CS says about this just because this is the kind of thing they are there for.

I force my dwarves out of the way when it would otherwise cause two creatures in the same square. It isn't specifically defined in the rules, so the party decided that it would be simplest to just move out of the way. Of course, I also let my players decide which square adjacent to their character they are being pushed into, so we end up with a few instant flanking situations now and then.

gorditobandito wrote:

i think precedence would apply to the duergar for a few reasons. First and foremost is the PnP ground rule of the specific supersedes the general, in this case the specific instance of the duergar polymorphing itself would supersede the general rule of dwarves being resistant to forced movement

I think you have this backwards. The general rule is the Duergar first becomes bloodied, and that triggers a push power. The specific rule would be the Dwarf resists 1 square of push. The general rule is for all races, except Dwarf.

I'd say the Duergar would be forced to take up 4 squares adjacent to the Dwarf. If he's beside a wall, he's squeezed. How would you rule it if they grew while in a 1 square wide hallway? Because of the sturdy wall-like nature of Dwarves, they act as an obstruction.

Now, since Duergar should know Dwarves can't be pushed, they would, if possible, move to prevent this from happening.

tehsquirrely wrote:

They're all just squeezing in the same space

QFT

We had this same problem pop up this last weekend, duergar shock trooper getting bloodied whilst adjacent to two dwarves. The DM just ruled the duargar shifted instead as he grew.

Any official word on this? I notice the last post was two years ago.

Aug 29, 2011 -- 11:18AM, HighlandRaider wrote:

Any official word on this?

It's likely that the original writer simply didn't consider opponents that were resistant to forced movement. The more recent paradigm is for such powers to push to a square that is adjacent to the expanding creature. Example from Earth Drake:
"It pushes each creature within its new space to the nearest unoccupied square adjacent to the drake’s new space."

 

I notice the last post was two years ago.

Arr... here there be Necromancers.

Polymorph has rules for failure. 

Aug 29, 2011 -- 2:36PM, mellored wrote:

Polymorph has rules for failure. 

Thanks for the tip:
"If a polymorph effect makes you too large to fit in the available space, the effect fails against you, but you are stunned (save ends). For example, if you are crawling through a narrow tunnel and a polymorph effect tries to turn you into a creature that is too large for the tunnel, the effect fails, but you are stunned until you save."

So then would this apply to creatures being nearby? If so, this would provide the needed answer (since the Dueger expand power has the polymorph keyword)... which would put Dueger at a significant disadvantage when fighting dwarves.