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5 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2008 - 8:04AM #1
Degobah
Date Joined: Jan 15, 2003
Posts: 111
Not surprising with a total ground-up system rebuild, quite a few things look like they've been stuffed up. Oh well. I may as well share my pain.

*Cleave. You only have to hit the primary target, and the cleave damage to the second target is automatic. In other words put a mook with AC 10 next to a dragon with Armour Class 57 and if you can hit the mook, the other guy takes cleave damage.

*Mirror Image--gives you a +6 bonus to AC, which goes down 2 whenever you miss (since you hit an image). A fighter with Armour Piercing Thrust ignores mirror image, since they get to attack Reflex not AC. Same for most of the rogue powers.

*Rogues have better chance to-hit than Fighters, since their base attack is the same and most of their attacks go for the often-poorer Reflex (with weapon to-hit bonus to AC included for good measure).

*Half-elves make GREAT hammer fighters, thanks to their +2 CON. We'd expect that from reading fantasy literature, right? We all know that a half-elf should have favourite weapon: hammer?? Not a bow or anything like that??
(They do at least get to be better with x-bows...see below)

*Steady Shooter (feat, page 206)--get +3 to damage with an x-bow if you don't move for a round. Great except...the prerequisite is Con 15+. WTF??

*Ettins ..these are speed 6 like most creatures but thanks to their second head giving them Dual Actions, get two move actions a round. A second head, apparently, lets you run twice as fast. Sigh.

*Being on fire: a number of powers (e.g. fire archons) deal continuing fire damage, save ends. The character keeps fighting while ON FIRE, and it either goes out or it doesn't. There's no combat option that lets you reroll a failed save -its up the GM to houserule if you can roll around on the ground. Probably not, since it takes a L16 ranger power to reroll a save.

*LG deities seem to be allowed to have LG and Unaligned clerics, but not Good clerics.

*Hurl Through Hell (Warlock 29).--a fiery pit appears under your foe, he falls in, goes to hell for a round, and gets 7d10 damage. The weird thing here is,if he doesn't go to hell, he still gets half damage!

*I liked Eladrin, mostly, up until I got to the MM entry where there were "Ghaeles of Winter". **ouch pun damage**

Also, forget sneaky halfling rogues. Most of the rogue powers do various multipliers of weapon (W) damage, so ideally you want large-ness or Powerful Build to pump up the damage (bugbears or minotaurs with super-size rapiers are pretty much the way to go).
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5 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2008 - 8:14AM #2
danbolows
Date Joined: May 16, 2008
Posts: 20
You must have a +15 knowledge to see all these things... Oh wait, you can't have that anymore.

Great job picking these out.

Your insight on Cleave really makes me quite upset about the fighter in our group.
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5 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2008 - 8:37AM #3
Ninja_Ferret
Date Joined: Oct 10, 2007
Posts: 549
pst or you can take a 1st level cleric encounter power to get an extra save at a huge bonus.

So in 3.x people can be hit with alchemists fire or ACID and continue fighting.

The cleave thing is kinda stange but think of it as the axe or what ever the hell weapon is goes through one and connects with another but at a slower force due to being bounced off another thing.

I got to love people who try to pick apart the rules and make it seem dumb. IF you want to do that keep it to yourselves and let others who actually like the new system (dispite all the unexplained thing).
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5 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2008 - 8:45AM #4
exarkfr
Date Joined: Aug 1, 2007
Posts: 109
Cleave was meant to work this way. With it, you can do a lot of damage (with the main part of the effect) to a 1HP-minion, and then cleave into the boss for half you str mod
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5 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2008 - 8:58AM #5
NorthSaber
Date Joined: Dec 2, 2002
Posts: 121

exarkfr wrote:

Cleave was meant to work this way. With it, you can do a lot of damage (with the main part of the effect) to a 1HP-minion, and then cleave into the boss for half you str mod


Or full Str mod (with a 2h weapon), which is more likely - 1h weapon users may wish to choose another at-will instead.

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2008 - 9:13AM #6
OrcishLibrarian
Date Joined: Jul 20, 2004
Posts: 701
Actually, the spillover damage dealt by Cleave is always equal to your Strength modifier. You guys are thinking of Reaving Strike, which is a different move altogether.
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5 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2008 - 9:20AM #7
Paradoxic
Date Joined: Feb 14, 2006
Posts: 548

Degobah wrote:

*Rogues have better chance to-hit than Fighters, since their base attack is the same and most of their attacks go for the often-poorer Reflex (with weapon to-hit bonus to AC included for good measure).

*Being on fire: a number of powers (e.g. fire archons) deal continuing fire damage, save ends. The character keeps fighting while ON FIRE, and it either goes out or it doesn't. There's no combat option that lets you reroll a failed save -its up the GM to houserule if you can roll around on the ground. Probably not, since it takes a L16 ranger power to reroll a save.

*Hurl Through Hell (Warlock 29).--a fiery pit appears under your foe, he falls in, goes to hell for a round, and gets 7d10 damage. The weird thing here is,if he doesn't go to hell, he still gets half damage!


*Rogues may have better chances to hit, but fighters will do more damage and take more abuse. The game is focusing more on combinations of classes, not on the 1 vs 1 style of the older editions.

*I'm not following what you say. At the end of every turn you get a chance to roll to save for every effect on you that allows it. If you fail to put out the fire on one round, you'll take another tick of damage and get to try and save again. Repeat until successful save or dead. There are also several powers (mainly cleric/paladin/warlord) that grant an ally a chance to make a save against one (or more depending on the power) effect currently affecting them.

*The target manages only to get burned by the fire but climb out of the pit (or dodge) before it closes back up. I don't see this being too crazy... also, consider it an abstraction.

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2008 - 9:22AM #8
exarkfr
Date Joined: Aug 1, 2007
Posts: 109
@OrcishLibrarian

well, to be honest, I didn't really thought at all on this one.

Keeping low AC minions near a so high AC big dragon that you find it better to target the minions and then cleave the dragon seems.... stupid ?

If you can't beat the dragon's AC, you'd better not bee fighting it.

So, I don't see where the hole is
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5 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2008 - 9:32AM #9
OrcishLibrarian
Date Joined: Jul 20, 2004
Posts: 701

Paradoxic wrote:

*I'm not following what you say. At the end of every turn you get a chance to roll to save for every effect on you that allows it. If you fail to put out the fire on one round, you'll take another tick of damage and get to try and save again. Repeat until successful save or dead. There are also several powers (mainly cleric/paladin/warlord) that grant an ally a chance to make a save against one (or more depending on the power) effect currently affecting them.


Not to mention the simple possibility of an adjacent ally spending a standard action and passing a DC 15 Heal check to give you either another save right then or +2 on one of your choice when your next end of turn comes up...

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2008 - 10:04AM #10
Willybot
Date Joined: Oct 11, 2004
Posts: 1

*Cleave. You only have to hit the primary target, and the cleave damage to the second target is automatic. In other words put a mook with AC 10 next to a dragon with Armour Class 57 and if you can hit the mook, the other guy takes cleave damage.


While this technically is an exploit, it's power is questionable, especially at higher levels. Since the extra damage is equal to your Str mod, it's going to cap at about 9 dmg by the high-20's. Those rounds you're spending slicing mooks and dealing low damage to your main target are rounds you aren't concentrating your damage or using your debuff/tactical powers on the real heavy hitter(Elites and Solos). Even assuming the boss doesnt simply keep the mooks away from him, your going to run out of Cleave targets long before you make a real dent in his HP.

*Mirror Image--gives you a +6 bonus to AC, which goes down 2 whenever you miss (since you hit an image). A fighter with Armour Piercing Thrust ignores mirror image, since they get to attack Reflex not AC. Same for most of the rogue powers.


True, but the attacks that hit Reflex are similar to powers that hit AC in flavor only. They work in similar fashion to Fireball and Flamestrike mechanically, both of which shouldnt have any impact on AC anyway.

*Rogues have better chance to-hit than Fighters, since their base attack is the same and most of their attacks go for the often-poorer Reflex (with weapon to-hit bonus to AC included for good measure).


Also true. All but a small handfull of mobs have a Ref def lower than their AC, though most of those have a difference of <4. The trade-off, however, is that the Fighter is going to hit for similar damage and effect, but often hits multiple enemies.
The rogue is meant to hit and hit hard, thats why he's a striker. The fighter is still a defender (even if the label is a bit ill-fitting); he's meant to control his area of the battlefield.

*Half-elves make GREAT hammer fighters, thanks to their +2 CON. We'd expect that from reading fantasy literature, right? We all know that a half-elf should have favourite weapon: hammer?? Not a bow or anything like that??
(They do at least get to be better with x-bows...see below)


Hammer or no, I'll agree with you regarding the Half-Elves recieving a +2 to Con. The truth of the matter though, is that they strived to have each of the phb races have a unique array of stat adjustments. Since the Halfling gained the +Dex and +Cha, the Half-elf was saddled with +Con.
Personally, I would have preferred they recieve the same +2 to any that humans recieved.

*Steady Shooter (feat, page 206)--get +3 to damage with an x-bow if you don't move for a round. Great except...the prerequisite is Con 15+. WTF??


Goofy as heck, I'd agree. This was done, I'd imagine, in the name of balance. It encourages characters to have decent secondary and tertiary statsand not just dump all your points into 1 stat. Some feats, such as Astral Fire (13 Dex, muh?) suffer from this. Overall, I agree with the philosophy, even if some of the particulars may make you scratch your head.

*Ettins ..these are speed 6 like most creatures but thanks to their second head giving them Dual Actions, get two move actions a round. A second head, apparently, lets you run twice as fast. Sigh.


Eh. Considering the bizarre and abstract way time works within a turn to begin with, this doesnt seem a huge a stretch. You can just chalk it up to a greater ability to coordinate twice as efficiently as another creature thanks to the second head. Afterall, each character in a turn has a full 6 seconds to respond to the actions of those who have acted already; even if said actions shouldnt have chronologically occured yet. :P Mechanics are mechanics.

*Being on fire: a number of powers (e.g. fire archons) deal continuing fire damage, save ends. The character keeps fighting while ON FIRE, and it either goes out or it doesn't. There's no combat option that lets you reroll a failed save -its up the GM to houserule if you can roll around on the ground. Probably not, since it takes a L16 ranger power to reroll a save.


Almost all status-effects work the same way, the flavor notwithstanding. Reasonably, unless you allow all other status-effects another free way to make an additional save (Inducing vomit to negate poisons, jogging in place to negate cold/slow effects, etc) there is no reason to nerf one element over the others. If the inability to stop-drop-and-roll threatens your game, you can change the flavor a bit: imagine the ongoing damage as blistering burns that just keep hurting rather than active flames.

*LG deities seem to be allowed to have LG and Unaligned clerics, but not Good clerics.


Page 62 of the PHB says that you may be of any alignment to be a cleric of an UnAligned deity. Also, if you yourself are unaligned, you may be a cleric of any deity. It's a special property of being unaligned, both as a deity and a cleric.

*Hurl Through Hell (Warlock 29).--a fiery pit appears under your foe, he falls in, goes to hell for a round, and gets 7d10 damage. The weird thing here is,if he doesn't go to hell, he still gets half damage!


Flavor it however you like for the half-damage. Perhaps the flames errupting from the fiery pit singe the victim even if they avoid falling in. Perhaps the tangible darkness and evil from merely being the target of such a spell taxes your mental and physical reserves. It's all in how you imagine it.

*I liked Eladrin, mostly, up until I got to the MM entry where there were "Ghaeles of Winter". **ouch pun damage**


Alas, there is no save vs pun damage.

Also, forget sneaky halfling rogues. Most of the rogue powers do various multipliers of weapon (W) damage, so ideally you want large-ness or Powerful Build to pump up the damage (bugbears or minotaurs with super-size rapiers are pretty much the way to go).


Since nearly all the rogue's abilities are Dex-based, the minotaur is not the most optimized choice. Bugbears do make excellent combat rogues however. The halfling's bonus to Thievery and Cha gives them a leg-up on trapsmithing and powers such as Sly Flourish, Positioning Strike, etc. I'd say that neither on is strictly betterthan the other, just different.


All in all not meant as a contradiction to you, just a different point of view.

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