After the discussion here last week, I have 3 builds of my own that I think could merit inclusion (though my formatting may not be the best): Wind-on-the-Mountain (Warden), The Great Uniter (Avenger|Warlord), and The Relentless Crusader (Battlemind|Paladin - this is my favorite build I've made). All of them were created or seriously polished in the last couple weeks.
I think example builds of this sort should be practically optimized, but how about TheoryOp builds? How do people feel about using a reserved post for really cool theoretical stuff? They certainly should be kept separate, but I think they deserve a section.
I am okay with you saying my argument is stupid, or commits the munchkin fallacy, or any other bad thing you want. Particularly if you give a reason/explanation for it.
However, I will ignore any post that calls me stupid, or a munchkin, or what have you. Not because it bothers me; I've just found that people only start name-calling when that's the best argument they have left.
After the discussion here last week, I have 3 builds of my own that I think could merit inclusion (though my formatting may not be the best): Wind-on-the-Mountain (Warden), The Great Uniter (Avenger|Warlord), and The Relentless Crusader (Battlemind|Paladin - this is my favorite build I've made). All of them were created or seriously polished in the last couple weeks.
I think example builds of this sort should be practically optimized, but how about TheoryOp builds? How do people feel about using a reserved post for really cool theoretical stuff? They certainly should be kept separate, but I think they deserve a section.
What's the line between them?
Is practical op something you can take to homegames and not overshadow everyone?
How about something that basicly eleminates the risk of TPK, even if you don't overshadow anyone, like dishearten spammer's or Death's Gatekeeper?
Would scry and die be practical or theroy? How about the "switch" variants?
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
I'd say it's theoretical if it either 1) doesn't work in a large number of cases (no defenses; only against tofu monsters; only at level 30; etc.) or 2) relies on rules that, while RAW, are far enough from RAI that most DMs wouldn't allow it. Like, Oppenheimer was fine on #1, but no DM would be okay with it.
Maybe someone else has a different definition, but that's how I'd define it. I acknowledge that it's subjective.
Dishearten spammers are fine. Death's Gatekeeper...unkillable revenants are cheesy as hell. Without belt+GV, I'd say it's fine. Scry and Die is theoretical because the DM won't let it work that way for long; you'll end up getting ambushed every encounter, and then it doesn't work anymore. That counts as "DM wouldn't allow it."
Objections to this definition?
I am okay with you saying my argument is stupid, or commits the munchkin fallacy, or any other bad thing you want. Particularly if you give a reason/explanation for it.
However, I will ignore any post that calls me stupid, or a munchkin, or what have you. Not because it bothers me; I've just found that people only start name-calling when that's the best argument they have left.
I'd say it's theoretical if it either 1) doesn't work in a large number of cases (no defenses; only against tofu monsters; only at level 30; etc.) or 2) relies on rules that, while RAW, are far enough from RAI that most DMs wouldn't allow it. Like, Oppenheimer was fine on #1, but no DM would be okay with it.
Maybe someone else has a different definition, but that's how I'd define it. I acknowledge that it's subjective.
Dishearten spammers are fine. Death's Gatekeeper...unkillable revenants are cheesy as hell. Without belt+GV, I'd say it's fine. Scry and Die is theoretical because the DM won't let it work that way for long; you'll end up getting ambushed every encounter, and then it doesn't work anymore. That counts as "DM wouldn't allow it."
Objections to this definition?
I can agree with 1.
But 2 isn't neccicaraly a factor. There are plenty of builds that are still high quality builds even if you took the cheeze factor out. I mean, if you took off the belt and GV off deaths gatekeeper, it would still be an amazingly powerful build.
Scry and die would still function as well. Though it couldn't be called powerful.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
I think we pretty much said the same things. Death's Gatekeeper, without the belt and GV, would be acceptable (practical and optimized). Scry and Die wouldn't, because after the schtick is taken away, it's not very optimized anymore.
So I'd put S&D as theoretical, and DG as practical (but with a note about revenant cheese).
I am okay with you saying my argument is stupid, or commits the munchkin fallacy, or any other bad thing you want. Particularly if you give a reason/explanation for it.
However, I will ignore any post that calls me stupid, or a munchkin, or what have you. Not because it bothers me; I've just found that people only start name-calling when that's the best argument they have left.
Koval - not really the place for rules questions - but to answer your question when you act after you delay, you act at that initiative order for the rest of the encounter (unless you delay again).
I sincerely apologize twice i've done this or thrice in a year span mistakenly clicking on this as opposed the q & a one.
Requesting that Look Very Carefully be added to the Assassin's list, if possible. It's a far more up-to-date handbook than Erleni's, after all.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
I agree with Look Very Carefully, but it shouldn't replace Erleni's because erachima's guide uses a very specific interpretation of the rules that isn't at all universal. I vote to have both.
I am okay with you saying my argument is stupid, or commits the munchkin fallacy, or any other bad thing you want. Particularly if you give a reason/explanation for it.
However, I will ignore any post that calls me stupid, or a munchkin, or what have you. Not because it bothers me; I've just found that people only start name-calling when that's the best argument they have left.
I think we pretty much said the same things. Death's Gatekeeper, without the belt and GV, would be acceptable (practical and optimized). Scry and Die wouldn't, because after the schtick is taken away, it's not very optimized anymore.
So I'd put S&D as theoretical, and DG as practical (but with a note about revenant cheese).
Actually, i feel we need another MC-DrowBane to do a hall of hero's list. I feel he did a good job there.
Too bad he stopped posting.
Edit: Also, S&D "fails" in an ambush the same way genasi blaster wizards "fail" when against a solo, or a striker "fails" against mass minions. Are you putting all the builds with any sort of weaknesses in "theroetical" as well?
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
I think we pretty much said the same things. Death's Gatekeeper, without the belt and GV, would be acceptable (practical and optimized). Scry and Die wouldn't, because after the schtick is taken away, it's not very optimized anymore.
So I'd put S&D as theoretical, and DG as practical (but with a note about revenant cheese).
Actually, i feel we need another MC-DrowBane to do a hall of hero's list. I feel he did a good job there.
Too bad he stopped posting.
Edit: Also, S&D "fails" in an ambush the same way genasi blaster wizards "fail" when against a solo, or a striker "fails" against mass minions. Are you putting all the builds with any sort of weaknesses in "theroetical" as well?
Instead of seperate postings for the TheoryOP and PracticalOP builds i would think better notations in each would be ideal. Just point out some of the weaknesses and perhaps the line drawn between each where one goes from theoretical to practical.
