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Flag LordOfWeasels May 9, 2013 4:09 PM PDT

May 9, 2013 -- 4:01PM, Zathris wrote:


The proliferation of "Ends an effect", which all DMs should convert such Abilities to, makes Certain Justice significantly weaker, ie. balanced, since the DM can now just pick to end the Mark.




I'm not a fan of "just end any effect whatsoever" - too often that turns into "Oh, this wide section of your power list simply doesn't function any more.  You should have been a Ranger!  Now sit back and wait for the Ranger to just damage the monster out of existence, your non-damage contributions are not relevant to this combat."

It's not as bad when it's "at the end of the monster's turn", but even then, I'm happier with "it eliminates effects that just cost it some or all of the turn, anything that didn't cost it the turn is still on."

(And yeah, Certain Justice is a problem.  But not in this case, and the solution to that general problem is not "nerf everything that isn't Certain Justice along with it.")

Flag Zathris May 9, 2013 4:58 PM PDT
Eliminate an Effect = "Stop being a 1-trick pony" and/or "The party is going to zerg rush me anyway, you don't get to cripple me completely". Controllers are absurdly more powerful in standard encounters, letting the Strikers and Leaders use their cool toys is fair play; if you just don't see it that way, you should have been a ranger regardless, doing "not gobs of damage, but ending the fight anyway" isn't for everyone.

"Eliminate things that cost this creature actions" is fine, but you don't want to have just the big 3 because otherwise Wizards become "Should have been a Warlock" simply because Warlock control is worded hilariously. The one thing you want to avoid is negating class features (Hybrid Mark, OoE) but if you're editing a monster, you can handwave that issue. And Prone always works
Flag Mommy_was_an_Orc May 9, 2013 6:18 PM PDT

May 9, 2013 -- 4:58PM, Zathris wrote:

Eliminate an Effect = "Stop being a 1-trick pony" and/or "The party is going to zerg rush me anyway, you don't get to cripple me completely". Controllers are absurdly more powerful in standard encounters, letting the Strikers and Leaders use their cool toys is fair play; if you just don't see it that way, you should have been a ranger regardless, doing "not gobs of damage, but ending the fight anyway" isn't for everyone.

"Eliminate things that cost this creature actions" is fine, but you don't want to have just the big 3 because otherwise Wizards become "Should have been a Warlock" simply because Warlock control is worded hilariously. The one thing you want to avoid is negating class features (Hybrid Mark, OoE) but if you're editing a monster, you can handwave that issue. And Prone always works




I much prefer options where despite control, the creature has options to get off weak attacks regardless of ability to attack. As an example, the party is fighting that dracolich. The dracolich is keeping itself not quite dead through force of mental focus and energy. So if it isn't able to attack anything? It must have lost that focus and begins to discorporate - it becomes insubstantial and gains an aura of necrotic energy that damages anything living near it. Or perhaps it thrashes around wildly doing a close burst 3 attack that counts as a weakened MBA to anything within reach - including itself. Or perhaps it howls and one of its teeth is a soul gem that targets the controller as a daily option for just such an emergency.

Another option is to downgrade effects instead of removal. Unconscious/Helpless/Petrified/Dominated -> Stunned -> Dazed -> Grant CA. Restrained -> Immobilized -> Slowed. That a Solo who was Stunned is only Dazed feels right in game - it is affected, but not as much as a mere Standard or Elite monster would be.
 
Point being, there are ways to allow control to work without it being a binary situation of either control works completely or not at all.

Flag CliveDauthi May 10, 2013 8:22 AM PDT

Is there any way to recharge a daily power (feat/item/pp), I know there are plenty of ways to do this for encounter powers but hadn’t seen anything for a daily. Thought I head there was an ED that lets you turn a low level daily into an At-Will but I highly doubt that’s true.


Intent is to find a way to use the Wizards Sleep as often as I can.

Flag Doobledigoop May 10, 2013 8:39 AM PDT
At low levels, not much.
Arcane Mastery is an epic feat that lets you trade an AP for an arcane daily.
Archmage ED capstone lets you cast it 1/encounter and twice per day once you hit epic.
I'm sure there's a lot more.
 
Flag baldhermit May 10, 2013 8:45 AM PDT
..and you want to use sleep as often as you can because all other wizard dailies aren't any good ?
Flag CliveDauthi May 10, 2013 8:54 AM PDT
Thankz doodledigoop
@Baldhermit - there are plenty of great wizard dailies, many which are stronger I realize; but Sleep has always had a place in my heart lol  
Flag MagnifloriousPhule May 10, 2013 2:41 PM PDT
For Draconic Incarnation's Spirit of the Dragon power, would the PC still need to make saving throws, is the PC still attackable, or does the PC's body temporarily disapear, replaced by the large dragon?
Flag LordOfWeasels May 10, 2013 3:39 PM PDT

May 10, 2013 -- 2:41PM, MagnifloriousPhule wrote:

For Draconic Incarnation's Spirit of the Dragon power, would the PC still need to make saving throws, is the PC still attackable, or does the PC's body temporarily disapear, replaced by the large dragon?




Why would you make saving throws?  You're dead.  But assuming that matters:  You do.

Why would someone attack you ?  You're dead.  But assuming that matters:  They can.

Does the PC's body disappear?  No.  The power says it doesn't, and then says that if your body is totally destroyed, you don't automatically return to life.  If your body isn't totally destroyed and the dragon has even 1HP remaining, you do return to life.

Flag MagnifloriousPhule May 10, 2013 4:33 PM PDT

May 10, 2013 -- 3:39PM, LordOfWeasels wrote:

May 10, 2013 -- 2:41PM, MagnifloriousPhule wrote:

For Draconic Incarnation's Spirit of the Dragon power, would the PC still need to make saving throws, is the PC still attackable, or does the PC's body temporarily disapear, replaced by the large dragon?




Why would you make saving throws?  You're dead.  But assuming that matters:  You do.

Why would someone attack you ?  You're dead.  But assuming that matters:  They can.

Does the PC's body disappear?  No.  The power says it doesn't, and then says that if your body is totally destroyed, you don't automatically return to life.  If your body isn't totally destroyed and the dragon has even 1HP remaining, you do return to life.





So the power only comes into effect at negative bloodied and not 0HP?

Flag LordOfWeasels May 10, 2013 6:45 PM PDT

May 10, 2013 -- 4:33PM, MagnifloriousPhule wrote:

May 10, 2013 -- 3:39PM, LordOfWeasels wrote:

May 10, 2013 -- 2:41PM, MagnifloriousPhule wrote:

For Draconic Incarnation's Spirit of the Dragon power, would the PC still need to make saving throws, is the PC still attackable, or does the PC's body temporarily disapear, replaced by the large dragon?




Why would you make saving throws?  You're dead.  But assuming that matters:  You do.

Why would someone attack you ?  You're dead.  But assuming that matters:  They can.

Does the PC's body disappear?  No.  The power says it doesn't, and then says that if your body is totally destroyed, you don't automatically return to life.  If your body isn't totally destroyed and the dragon has even 1HP remaining, you do return to life.





So the power only comes into effect at negative bloodied and not 0HP?




It comes into play "when you die".

Negative Bloodied, third failed Death Save, second failed save versus a Beholder's Death Ray, whatever, this power triggers when you DIE.  Dead.  Kaput.  Shuffled off this mortal coil.  Pining for the fjords.

But no, it does not trigger when you drop below zero HP, because when you drop below 0 HP you have not died.  You are dying, and you are almost certainly unconscious, but you're not dead.  And since haven't died, a power that triggers "when you die" doesn't trigger.

Flag bajatmerc May 10, 2013 7:07 PM PDT
Revenant Pixie, as I understand it I can not fly, can not occupy my ally's square, and are not tiny. 
I can wield a Glaive.

Is that all correct?
Is there a work around to be able to occupy my ally's square like a Pixie as a Revenant?
Flag MagnifloriousPhule May 10, 2013 7:48 PM PDT

May 10, 2013 -- 6:45PM, LordOfWeasels wrote:

May 10, 2013 -- 4:33PM, MagnifloriousPhule wrote:

May 10, 2013 -- 3:39PM, LordOfWeasels wrote:

May 10, 2013 -- 2:41PM, MagnifloriousPhule wrote:

For Draconic Incarnation's Spirit of the Dragon power, would the PC still need to make saving throws, is the PC still attackable, or does the PC's body temporarily disapear, replaced by the large dragon?




Why would you make saving throws?  You're dead.  But assuming that matters:  You do.

Why would someone attack you ?  You're dead.  But assuming that matters:  They can.

Does the PC's body disappear?  No.  The power says it doesn't, and then says that if your body is totally destroyed, you don't automatically return to life.  If your body isn't totally destroyed and the dragon has even 1HP remaining, you do return to life.





So the power only comes into effect at negative bloodied and not 0HP?




It comes into play "when you die".

Negative Bloodied, third failed Death Save, second failed save versus a Beholder's Death Ray, whatever, this power triggers when you DIE.  Dead.  Kaput.  Shuffled off this mortal coil.  Pining for the fjords.

But no, it does not trigger when you drop below zero HP, because when you drop below 0 HP you have not died.  You are dying, and you are almost certainly unconscious, but you're not dead.  And since haven't died, a power that triggers "when you die" doesn't trigger.





Okay, thanks for the clarification

Flag Valcain May 10, 2013 9:03 PM PDT
I just read over summoning powers and the rules of death, but from what I can tell, none of my summons end when I die. Only at the end of the encounter or until I dismiss them as a minor.
That being said, as an archmage, when I die and then come back as my arcane spirit form, do my summons persist? Also, What about with the cloak of the phoenix? I drop to below 1 hp and then come back with full hit points again. Are my summons banished because I died? I never saw anywhere in the summons rules or death/dying rules that the summons disappear. 
Flag pinkisthenewred May 10, 2013 11:07 PM PDT

May 10, 2013 -- 9:03PM, Valcain wrote:

I just read over summoning powers and the rules of death, but from what I can tell, none of my summons end when I die. Only at the end of the encounter or until I dismiss them as a minor.
That being said, as an archmage, when I die and then come back as my arcane spirit form, do my summons persist? Also, What about with the cloak of the phoenix? I drop to below 1 hp and then come back with full hit points again. Are my summons banished because I died? I never saw anywhere in the summons rules or death/dying rules that the summons disappear. 




The problem is, that you make the attack via your summons, at least the ones with the implement keyword. When you're dead, you can't attack, so..

Edit: Just realized that that wasn't even the question..

"Duration: The summoned creature lasts until the summoner takes a minor action to dismiss it or until the end of the encounter."

So, unless "end of encounter" can be read subjectively from the dead player's view, as well, i guess they would persist without being able to attack.

Someone else?

Flag LordOfWeasels May 11, 2013 7:42 AM PDT

May 10, 2013 -- 11:07PM, pinkisthenewred wrote:

May 10, 2013 -- 9:03PM, Valcain wrote:

I just read over summoning powers and the rules of death, but from what I can tell, none of my summons end when I die. Only at the end of the encounter or until I dismiss them as a minor.
That being said, as an archmage, when I die and then come back as my arcane spirit form, do my summons persist? Also, What about with the cloak of the phoenix? I drop to below 1 hp and then come back with full hit points again. Are my summons banished because I died? I never saw anywhere in the summons rules or death/dying rules that the summons disappear. 




The problem is, that you make the attack via your summons, at least the ones with the implement keyword. When you're dead, you can't attack, so..

Edit: Just realized that that wasn't even the question..

"Duration: The summoned creature lasts until the summoner takes a minor action to dismiss it or until the end of the encounter."

So, unless "end of encounter" can be read subjectively from the dead player's view, as well, i guess they would persist without being able to attack.

Someone else?




That wasn't the question, either.

His question was, *if he comes back from the dead*, can he still run his summons?

And the answer is yes.  They don't end when he dies, and if he comes back from the dead mid-encounter he can start commanding them again.

Flag Valcain May 11, 2013 9:30 AM PDT

May 11, 2013 -- 7:42AM, LordOfWeasels wrote:

May 10, 2013 -- 11:07PM, pinkisthenewred wrote:

May 10, 2013 -- 9:03PM, Valcain wrote:

I just read over summoning powers and the rules of death, but from what I can tell, none of my summons end when I die. Only at the end of the encounter or until I dismiss them as a minor.
That being said, as an archmage, when I die and then come back as my arcane spirit form, do my summons persist? Also, What about with the cloak of the phoenix? I drop to below 1 hp and then come back with full hit points again. Are my summons banished because I died? I never saw anywhere in the summons rules or death/dying rules that the summons disappear. 




The problem is, that you make the attack via your summons, at least the ones with the implement keyword. When you're dead, you can't attack, so..

Edit: Just realized that that wasn't even the question..

"Duration: The summoned creature lasts until the summoner takes a minor action to dismiss it or until the end of the encounter."

So, unless "end of encounter" can be read subjectively from the dead player's view, as well, i guess they would persist without being able to attack.

Someone else?




That wasn't the question, either.

His question was, *if he comes back from the dead*, can he still run his summons?

And the answer is yes.  They don't end when he dies, and if he comes back from the dead mid-encounter he can start commanding them again.





Thank you both! I thought so, but I've never run a summoner before. And the rules never said anything about them disappearing upon death, just the end of the encounter.

Which makes sense because a summon isn't a constant channeling of energy to keep them there. You'd use a certain amount of "mana" to bring them forth and they last until the mana spent to sommon them is dried out or you dismiss them.

But that's getting outside of game mechanics.

Thanks again. 

Flag notTrogdor May 11, 2013 10:49 AM PDT
Would summons still act on their intrinsic natures and the like if the summoner is dead or unconscious? 
Flag LordOfWeasels May 11, 2013 10:51 AM PDT

May 11, 2013 -- 10:49AM, notTrogdor wrote:

Would summons still act on their intrinsic natures and the like if the summoner is dead or unconscious? 




They do the intrinsic action if they're not given a command by their summoner during the summoner's turn.

So:  YES.  An unconscious summoner isn't giving them a command, so they take the "I have been given no command" action.

Flag pinkisthenewred May 11, 2013 11:01 AM PDT

May 11, 2013 -- 10:51AM, LordOfWeasels wrote:

May 11, 2013 -- 10:49AM, notTrogdor wrote:

Would summons still act on their intrinsic natures and the like if the summoner is dead or unconscious? 




They do the intrinsic action if they're not given a command by their summoner during the summoner's turn.

So:  YES.  An unconscious summoner isn't giving them a command, so they take the "I have been given no command" action.




Hmm, since the PC attacks through the summon, even when intrinsic nature comes to play, that seems weird.
On the other hand if you see *dead* just as another condition that makes you unable to take actions, just like *stun*, during which the summon in fact does act, it makes sense again.
Another question: Wouldn't a dead PC's summon lose all implement benefits, since a dead PC can't use/wield it anymore?

Flag LordOfWeasels May 11, 2013 11:15 AM PDT

May 11, 2013 -- 11:01AM, pinkisthenewred wrote:

Another question: Wouldn't a dead PC's summon lose all implement benefits, since a dead PC can't use/wield it anymore?




That sounds like too much work to be worth calculating.  Like why disarms don't exist.

So, "Maybe, but it would make the game worse to have to figure that out, so don't bother."

Flag Valcain May 11, 2013 2:20 PM PDT

May 11, 2013 -- 11:01AM, pinkisthenewred wrote:

May 11, 2013 -- 10:51AM, LordOfWeasels wrote:

May 11, 2013 -- 10:49AM, notTrogdor wrote:

Would summons still act on their intrinsic natures and the like if the summoner is dead or unconscious? 




They do the intrinsic action if they're not given a command by their summoner during the summoner's turn.

So:  YES.  An unconscious summoner isn't giving them a command, so they take the "I have been given no command" action.




Hmm, since the PC attacks through the summon, even when intrinsic nature comes to play, that seems weird.
On the other hand if you see *dead* just as another condition that makes you unable to take actions, just like *stun*, during which the summon in fact does act, it makes sense again.
Another question: Wouldn't a dead PC's summon lose all implement benefits, since a dead PC can't use/wield it anymore?




Since it was already summoned with the implement then I'd believe it would. Just like how it can attack when you're stunned. While they say it attacks "through" you, it's just you COMMANDING it to attack. It already has bonuses to power from when it was summoned.

Flag pinkisthenewred May 12, 2013 1:02 AM PDT
I'm pretty sure it doesn't work this way, since that's not the way, 4e rules work usually. Your status while summoning doesn't matter for your current attack roll, only your current status does. Only exception that comes to my mind is Blood Mage's F11.
But i guess, LOW got it right and it in fact is too specific to bother.
Flag dfn77 May 12, 2013 3:12 AM PDT
If I use Promise of Storm + Thundering Howl, does each enemy in the blast take 1d6 + 1d8 damage, or just 1d6?
Flag babcock3030 May 12, 2013 3:40 AM PDT
They would take 1d6+1d8+mods (minus your ability modifier). If a power has multiple damage rolls, you add all appropriate modifiers to those damage rolls.
Flag dfn77 May 12, 2013 9:59 AM PDT
Thank you!
Flag mr_virus May 12, 2013 7:22 PM PDT

May 11, 2013 -- 10:49AM, notTrogdor wrote:

Would summons still act on their intrinsic natures and the like if the summoner is dead or unconscious? 



Yes but you would not be able to dismiss the summon, so it would probably end up dead as well. It would not be wise to be making death saves, and then start losing healing surges. If you are out of surges, and you lose a healing surge because your summoned monster died, then you take a healing surge worth of damage. If you are already making death saves, you wont be for much longer.

Flag NotThe1 May 12, 2013 11:42 PM PDT
Posted this a few pages back, but nobody answered. Reposting it just once.

For a Ranger|Cleric who will be using Light Blades, is Spiked Chain Training better than Rapier + Short Sword?

Spiked Chain Training gives you reach, and the convenience of maintaining only a single weapon (and maybe more consistent damage early on?). Rapier + Short Sword give you a multiclass feat (because you're not taking Spiked Chain Training), but have no reach and force you to maintain two weapons. Am I missing anything? Maybe the question should be is Disciple of Divine Wrath/Battle Awareness that much better than reach + convenience?

Flag ThatWasTotallyNinja May 13, 2013 12:02 AM PDT
It's hard to answer because it's very build-dependent. Do you have a particular need for the MC feat? If not, Spiked Chain Training is great. If so, then perhaps you'd want to look at getting proficiency in a double sword, if you don't want to maintain two weapons.

There isn't a clear-cut answer where one is definitely better than the other, though I hate maintaining two weapons so I'd pick Double Sword over the Rapier + Short Sword combo at least.
Flag thespaceinvader May 13, 2013 12:41 AM PDT
MC Spiked Chain is probably the best weapon for a Ranger|Cleric, but it costs you MC Fighter and all the goodies that go with it, so it's more-or-less a wash.  The reach and the not having to double pay your weapon upgrades are the most important parts of it.
Flag NotThe1 May 13, 2013 10:54 AM PDT

Thanks for the answers!

Flag mr_virus May 13, 2013 4:31 PM PDT
When a Revenant monk with Stunning Palm active drops below zero, can they choose to be "dazed" and stay up, even though Stunning Palm says they can not be dazed?

Second, when an Avenger with the Ironwrought theme uses Inevitable Strike, would they roll four D20s against their Oath target?
Flag LordOfWeasels May 13, 2013 4:45 PM PDT

May 13, 2013 -- 4:31PM, mr_virus wrote:

When a Revenant monk with Stunning Palm active drops below zero, can they choose to be "dazed" and stay up, even though Stunning Palm says they can not be dazed?




You have a choice:  Be dazed, or be unconscious.  Not dazed?  Unconscious.

May 13, 2013 -- 4:31PM, mr_virus wrote:

Second, when an Avenger with the Ironwrought theme uses Inevitable Strike, would they roll four D20s against their Oath target?




Ironwrought:  " Make the attack roll twice. "
OOE:  "When you make a melee attack against the target and the target is the only enemy adjacent to you, you make two attack rolls and use either result.
If another effect lets you roll twice and use the higher result when making an attack roll, this power has no effect on that attack. If an effect forces you to roll twice and use the lower result when making an attack roll, this power has no effect on that attack either."

Ironwrought doesn't force you to use either roll, so RAW appears to be... "make the attack roll twice".

Not four times, not "roll and reroll twice".  The fact that you have TWO things saying "make the attack roll twice" doesn't mean that you get to roll four times, any more than two things saying "crit on 19" mean crit on 18.

I would totally let the Avenger choose which of his "make the attack roll twice" powers to treat as authoritative, though.  And that means Inevitable Strike.

Flag Keithric May 13, 2013 4:56 PM PDT
Hmm, could you do:
Avenger, roll twice getting, say
5 and 17
Now trigger Inevitable Strike on the 17 attack roll, making two attack rolls for that one roll, getting say 17 and 13, and getting your extra damage? 
Flag LordOfWeasels May 13, 2013 4:57 PM PDT

May 13, 2013 -- 4:56PM, Keithric wrote:

Hmm, could you do:
Avenger, roll twice getting, say
5 and 17
Now trigger Inevitable Strike on the 17 attack roll, making two attack rolls for that one roll, getting say 17 and 13, and getting your extra damage? 




Inevitable Strike has to be used before the attack roll to be meaningful.

Flag Keithric May 13, 2013 6:33 PM PDT
And yet, the trigger requires an attack roll. An avenger does make those, all the same.

In other news, Inevitable Strike is problematically written. 
Flag LordOfWeasels May 13, 2013 6:36 PM PDT

May 13, 2013 -- 6:33PM, Keithric wrote:

And yet, the trigger requires an attack roll. An avenger does make those, all the same.

In other news, Inevitable Strike is problematically written. 




In order for "when you make an attack roll, do X and receive Y because of the results of that attack roll" to be meaningful, it has to be used in advance.  Same as the Thief's Backstab.

And yes, no argument, it should have been better-written, or errata'd, especially since the only people who can see it AT ALL are the people who've paid for updates - but "fixing what's unclear or broken" is not what WotC cares about.

Still, I think the best possible RAW and RAI match:  "Must use before attacking, don't stack".

Flag Keithric May 13, 2013 6:51 PM PDT
Sounds good.
Flag CliveDauthi May 14, 2013 10:31 AM PDT

Feat: Mark of Making [Dragonmark]
Benefit: You have mastered the Enchant Magic Item ritual and can perform it as if you were two levels higher.
You can make alchemical items as though you had the Alchemist feat and were two levels higher.
You can master and perform rituals in the creation category and the Make Whole ritual as if you had the Ritual Caster feat.

Just to clarify; this gives you the Enchant Magic Item and Make Whole ritual for free? When I added it to my sheet on DDI those two rituals didn't show up
in my ritual book. 
 

*Font fixed* 

Flag Fardiz May 14, 2013 10:32 AM PDT
Ow, font.
Flag Doobledigoop May 14, 2013 1:05 PM PDT
Enchant Magic Item is free, Make Whole isn't (you master the first one, you can master the second one).
Flag CliveDauthi May 14, 2013 1:20 PM PDT
Thank you!
Flag Be3Al2 May 14, 2013 2:33 PM PDT

May 14, 2013 -- 10:31AM, CliveDauthi wrote:

Feat: Mark of Making [Dragonmark]
Benefit: You have mastered the Enchant Magic Item ritual and can perform it as if you were two levels higher.
You can make alchemical items as though you had the Alchemist feat and were two levels higher.
You can master and perform rituals in the creation category and the Make Whole ritual as if you had the Ritual Caster feat.

Just to clarify; this gives you the Enchant Magic Item and Make Whole ritual for free? When I added it to my sheet on DDI those two rituals didn't show up
in my ritual book. 
 

*Font fixed* 


I won't say anything about Enchant magic item, but for the Make Whole ritual (and rituals in the creation category) you only meet the prerequisites for mastering them.

Flag elsar May 15, 2013 1:14 AM PDT
I try to reabuilt and understand the davy_jones build and have two questions.

First one: Often in paladin builds i see that they choose "White Lotus Riposte" in combination with Bards Dilettante to obtain this feat. A paladin does not have that much arcane at-will attack. The really only arcane at-will for a paladin i can find are the Bard Attacks obtained via "Dilettante". Are there any other synergies i overlooked or are these Bard Attacks the only meaningful attacks?

Second question: Does the -3 Attack Penalty via Enfeebling Strike & Power of Madness stack with the -2 Attack Penalty via Psychic Lock ?
Flag Zathris May 15, 2013 2:30 AM PDT

May 15, 2013 -- 1:14AM, elsar wrote:

I try to reabuilt and understand the davy_jones build and have two questions.

First one: Often in paladin builds i see that they choose "White Lotus Riposte" in combination with Bards Dilettante to obtain this feat. A paladin does not have that much arcane at-will attack. The really only arcane at-will for a paladin i can find are the Bard Attacks obtained via "Dilettante". Are there any other synergies i overlooked or are these Bard Attacks the only meaningful attacks?

Second question: Does the -3 Attack Penalty via Enfeebling Strike & Power of Madness stack with the -2 Attack Penalty via Psychic Lock ?



I don't know why you changed so much of Alcestis's build without understanding it, much less actually reading it...
1. "WLR still works because Power of Arcana adds the Arcana keyword to Virtuous Strike". WLR and Bardic Dilettante have nothing to do with each other, except you need to MC bard to meet the pre-reqs of WLR. Currently, MC Binder is a better choice.
2. Yes, they stack.

Flag elsar May 15, 2013 2:36 AM PDT

May 15, 2013 -- 2:30AM, Zathris wrote:


I don't know why you changed so much of Alcestis's build without understanding it, much less actually reading it...
1. "WLR still works because Power of Arcana adds the Arcana keyword to Virtuous Strike". WLR and Bardic Dilettante have nothing to do with each other, except you need to MC bard to meet the pre-reqs of WLR. Currently, MC Binder is a better choice.



I can tell you why, cause the basic build i worked with was imperii's not alcestis'. Imperii used Power of Madness and Power of the Sea and i wanted to understand how he is using WLR with the lack of the arcana keyword in his build.

thanks for answering nr. 2

Flag thespaceinvader May 15, 2013 2:37 AM PDT
Also, Dilettante is not (usually) referring to the bard MC feat, it's the Half-Elf's racial feature.  Most people who use it in this context use it to take the Warlock's Eldritch Strike, which is a very useful Charisma-based Arcane Melee Basic Attack.
Flag barnesybaby May 15, 2013 3:33 AM PDT
Hi,

Which class/classes do you think would be best suited to using the spear?

Thanks :-) 
Flag svendj May 15, 2013 3:38 AM PDT
Basic fighter, or Slayer if you're optimizing. Spear Expertise and Surprising Charge make every charge you do quite lethal. See the top link in my sig for more info on charge optimization.
Flag barnesybaby May 15, 2013 3:41 AM PDT

May 15, 2013 -- 3:38AM, svendj wrote:

Basic fighter, or Slayer if you're optimizing. Spear Expertise and Surprising Charge make every charge you do quite lethal. See the top link in my sig for more info on charge optimization.


Thanks. I've read pretty much all of the character optimisation guides from the bulk thread that was posted and as a result I can't remmeber which had all the mentions about using the spear with a particular class.

I'll read up on Slayers :-) 

Flag Fardiz May 15, 2013 3:48 AM PDT
Do you mean an actual spear, or a member of the spear group? The gouge will generally come top in the latter case, though some leader builds get quite a bit out of the greatspear.
Flag barnesybaby May 15, 2013 3:52 AM PDT

May 15, 2013 -- 3:48AM, Fardiz wrote:

Do you mean an actual spear, or a member of the spear group? The gouge will generally come top in the latter case, though some leader builds get quite a bit out of the greatspear.


A member of the spear group. So Great spear, Glaive, Trident etc. I want to build a character with a spear-type weapon as it's primary melee but am not sure which classes would get the most benefits (through powers) out of such a weapon choice.

Thanks :-) 

Flag svendj May 15, 2013 4:03 AM PDT
Draeven Marauder (Dragon Magazine 365) is a nice paragon path for spear users. It doubles your crit range at level 11, and grants you a free MBA at level 16 when you crit. It also gives you a lot of mobility. 
Flag Fardiz May 15, 2013 4:08 AM PDT
Only fighter powers differ by weapon, afaik.
Flag thespaceinvader May 15, 2013 4:56 AM PDT
But classes which like reach often do very well with the Greatspear, so many leader classes, in particular.

But yes, if you want to do damage pure and simple, spear op is more or less gouge-charge op.
Flag Celerian01 May 15, 2013 7:20 AM PDT

May 15, 2013 -- 4:08AM, Fardiz wrote:

Only fighter powers differ by weapon, afaik.


I think some Iron Soul-oriented monk powers do, as well.

Flag Zathris May 15, 2013 12:50 PM PDT

May 15, 2013 -- 7:20AM, Celerian01 wrote:

May 15, 2013 -- 4:08AM, Fardiz wrote:

Only fighter powers differ by weapon, afaik.


I think some Iron Soul-oriented monk powers do, as well.



Simple Weapon Cleric Powers as well.

Builds that use Spears:
Anyone who charges and isn't an Executioner or Scout
Weapon-based Leaders (Warlord, Artificer, Runepriest?)
Druids
PM/PG that don't also want HBO.

Flag MagnifloriousPhule May 15, 2013 8:34 PM PDT
How many things can grab a PC at once?
Flag Zathris May 15, 2013 9:28 PM PDT

May 15, 2013 -- 8:34PM, MagnifloriousPhule wrote:

How many things can grab a PC at once?



∞ effectively

Flag MagnifloriousPhule May 15, 2013 9:30 PM PDT
Thanks
Flag bullgaria May 15, 2013 11:42 PM PDT
Does the warlord OA provided by Ninth Legion Student allow him to chose some other creature other than the one triggering the OA for the ally to attack. ("OSHI...look at these guys! They are walking all over the place like they don't even care...YOU! Attack someone, anyone!...that one will do.")

BONUS: Assuming that is true, how hard would the DM slap me if I combined it with the Demon-Bound PP? (allies trigger OA from you at lvl16 while bloodied) ....If not too hard, is there a better place to get benefit?
Flag Fardiz May 16, 2013 2:42 AM PDT

May 15, 2013 -- 9:28PM, Zathris wrote:

May 15, 2013 -- 8:34PM, MagnifloriousPhule wrote:

How many things can grab a PC at once?



∞ effectively




Well ropers grab at reach 10, the maximum number of ropers who could grab the female paladin at once would be (21*21-1) = 441.

Didn't I see a Japanese film about that once?

Flag Xaspian May 16, 2013 2:56 AM PDT

May 15, 2013 -- 11:42PM, bullgaria wrote:

Does the warlord OA provided by Ninth Legion Student allow him to chose some other creature other than the one triggering the OA for the ally to attack. ("OSHI...look at these guys! They are walking all over the place like they don't even care...YOU! Attack someone, anyone!...that one will do.")

BONUS: Assuming that is true, how hard would the DM slap me if I combined it with the Demon-Bound PP? (allies trigger OA from you at lvl16 while bloodied) ....If not too hard, is there a better place to get benefit?




By my interpretation, you would have to target the creature triggering the opportunity attack with Direct the Strike, as nothing about Ninth Legion Student changes the fact that your opportunity attack targets the triggering enemy. If my reading it correct, this would mean that RAW, it shouldn't normally work at all for warlords, as Direct the Strike targets an ally, who don't normally provoke opportunity attacks. However, in combination with Demon-Bound, you can target your ally with your opportunity Direct the Strike, it should work... I think?

My interpretation could be incorrect, so I'd suggest waiting for someone to correct or confirm it.

Flag Fardiz May 16, 2013 3:03 AM PDT
"If you are using a shield, you can use a power associated with this feat in place of a melee basic attack when making an opportunity attack."

It replaces everything, including the target line. So you use DtS as normal and there no need for it to be against the target that proc'd the OA. 
Flag CliveDauthi May 16, 2013 6:51 AM PDT
The Vistani Heritage Feat says among other things that you master the Vistani Blooding ritual
But after looking through the mag it came from I couldn't find that ritual written down anywhere.
Anyone know what this ritual does?   
Flag Lathaen-V May 16, 2013 8:00 AM PDT
Anyone else getting the download icon for this months dragon magazine, only to have it download a 1.5kb file of nothing?
Flag Zathris May 16, 2013 12:06 PM PDT

May 16, 2013 -- 6:51AM, CliveDauthi wrote:

The Vistani Heritage Feat says among other things that you master the Vistani Blooding ritual
But after looking through the mag it came from I couldn't find that ritual written down anywhere.
Anyone know what this ritual does?   



It's an entirely fluff Ritual.
"All those invited to join a Vistani clan go through a ritual known as “Blooding” Usually, children go through “Blooding” when born or when they are ready to commit to being part of the clan. Outsiders who do a great service to or for a Vistani clan might be invited to become “one of the blood”  through a Blooding ritual."

Flag FLAvatar May 16, 2013 12:07 PM PDT

May 16, 2013 -- 8:00AM, Lathaen-V wrote:

Anyone else getting the download icon for this months dragon magazine, only to have it download a 1.5kb file of nothing?


423 isn't out yet, the big red download button is fibbing at the moment

there is a post over in the DDI forum explaining they hope to have it as early as tomorrow. 


 

Flag CliveDauthi May 16, 2013 12:29 PM PDT
Thanks Zarthris!
Next Q- since I got called out on it want, to get it straight.

Playing a Gensai Blaster Wizard; MC Swordmage; with a Frost Weapon (converets all damage to cold)

Elemental Empowerment- gives powers with certin elemetnal keywords (cold) damage bouns = to STR

I'v read a few places doing this with a lighting weapon; claiming that it opens up powers to be buffed by Elemental Empowerment (but it dosn't add keywords just damage output type) Has there been something added that has since made this invalid? It was my understanding this was what Gensai Blasters did (find a way to convert damage so to get Eempowerment buff)

What am I missing here, was told it dosn't work on magic missle; but would it work with Force Orb?   

  
  
Flag CUBPHILDND May 16, 2013 12:45 PM PDT

May 16, 2013 -- 12:29PM, CliveDauthi wrote:


What am I missing here, was told it dosn't work on magic missle; but would it work with Force Orb?




You were also told the reason it doesn't work with Magic Missile: Magic Missile lacks a damage roll.  Elemental Empowerment says, "When you use a wizard power that has the cold, fire, lightning, or thunder keyword, you add your Strength modifier to damage rolls" (my emphasis).  Force Orb has a damage roll; Magic Missile does not.

Flag CliveDauthi May 16, 2013 12:52 PM PDT

I understand that, what I was getting at was this


1-      Elemental Empowerment requires a Keyword (cold/fire/ex.) in the spell to activate


2-      Frost Weapon doesn’t add a keyword; it just changes the damage type an attack does.


In changing the damage type, does Frost Weapon add the Cold Keyword to an attack? I’t wasn’t explicitly stated so I just assumed it didn’t.


Sorry if my question was vague.

Flag ThatWasTotallyNinja May 16, 2013 12:53 PM PDT
Yes, it does. Adding/removing damage types will also add/remove those keywords.
Flag CliveDauthi May 16, 2013 1:27 PM PDT
Ah, Thank you.
Flag Fardiz May 16, 2013 2:22 PM PDT

May 16, 2013 -- 12:07PM, FLAvatar wrote:

May 16, 2013 -- 8:00AM, Lathaen-V wrote:

Anyone else getting the download icon for this months dragon magazine, only to have it download a 1.5kb file of nothing?


423 isn't out yet, the big red download button is fibbing at the moment

there is a post over in the DDI forum explaining they hope to have it as early as tomorrow. 


 




Your avatar really surprised me there...

Flag Mommy_was_an_Orc May 16, 2013 2:35 PM PDT

May 16, 2013 -- 2:22PM, Fardiz wrote:

May 16, 2013 -- 12:07PM, FLAvatar wrote:

May 16, 2013 -- 8:00AM, Lathaen-V wrote:

Anyone else getting the download icon for this months dragon magazine, only to have it download a 1.5kb file of nothing?


423 isn't out yet, the big red download button is fibbing at the moment

there is a post over in the DDI forum explaining they hope to have it as early as tomorrow. 


 




Your avatar really surprised me there...




Wrecan passed away in April.

Flag Fardiz May 16, 2013 2:43 PM PDT
I know, that's why seeing someone with that picture posting surprised me.
Flag Mommy_was_an_Orc May 16, 2013 2:47 PM PDT

May 16, 2013 -- 2:43PM, Fardiz wrote:

I know, that's why seeing someone with that picture posting surprised me.




Not the only person with it - I've seen it on several posters.

Flag Fardiz May 16, 2013 2:53 PM PDT
Fair enough.
Flag Brother_Griften May 16, 2013 5:21 PM PDT
Bonus to damage rolls.

I have seen conflicting answers.  Let's say I have a power going that gives me +2 power bonus to damage rolls until the end of the encounter.  Does this bonus also apply to things like quarry, sneak attack, etc?  Or just the roll of the power that triggers those things?

-BG
Flag Noctaem May 16, 2013 5:56 PM PDT
no, the +2 bonus would only be added once to the damage roll.  Quarry, Sneak attack, etc is extra damage which is added to the damage roll.  You don't add anything to sneak attack, sneak attack adds itself to a damage roll for example.

If you have the following damage for an attack:

1d8+6

And you can add your sneak attack of 2d6 if you have CA and you meet the requirement you then get:

1d8+6+2d6

so you roll 1d8 and 2d6 and then add 6 to whatever the result is for those dice.
Flag notTrogdor May 16, 2013 5:57 PM PDT
Things like Hunter's Quarry and Sneak Attack are themselves bonuses to damage rolls. Static bonuses don't affect dice individually, they apply to the total roll.

So if your damage roll is 1[w] + 5 damage without sneak attack, it becomes 2d6 + 1[w] + 5. With a +2 power bonus to damage rolls, it becomes 2d6 + 1[w] + 7
Flag CUBPHILDND May 16, 2013 6:08 PM PDT
I'm not sure, but I suspect that Brother_Griften might have intended to ask a more difficult question: does extra damage count as introducing a damage roll when appended to a power that otherwise would lack one?  For example, a paragon wizard Student of Malediction adds the Cold keyword to Magic Missile via Arcane Admixture and then takes Icy Heart.  He curses his target and then casts Magic Missile.  Does he get the +3 feat bonus to his Magic Missile damage?

I'm not sure that there's a clear RAW answer to this question.
Flag Koshinuke May 16, 2013 6:18 PM PDT
A damage roll is very clear.  By RAW(RC pg 222) "... a damage roll: a roll of dice to determine damage." 

So sneak attack/hunter's quarry/MKJ L16 feature/Claw Gloves are a damage roll.  By RAW, they are extra damage and extra damage is considered part of the original power.

However, you can expect massive table variation on damage rolls.  Even this answer is going to spark a debate even though it is the correct RAW answer.  It is not accepted on CharOp because it would rapidly change everything.  For example, adding a damage roll to each attack for Brutal Barrage, thereby getting all the +damage roll modifiers.  Or getting a damage roll on Flurry of Blows and getting those modifiers.

In the example given about MM+Warlock's Curse+Icy Heart+AA:Cold, by RAW it would get the +3.  By RAI and the ruling of most of the people on these boards, no it wouldn't.

Ask your DM.  You will not get a clear answer from CharOp because it would really change the game if you followed RAW for damage rolls.     
Flag monkey2k May 16, 2013 6:19 PM PDT
1) Are there any rulings that prevent you from marking yourself?
Ignore how hard it is to do and why anyone would want to do it for now (it's for joke-op).

2) If a feature allows me to add an extra 1d6 fire damage to an attack, does the attack gain the fire keyword?
My guess is that it counts as the attack gaining a damage type, and thus getting the keyword, but I'd like to make sure.
Flag Koshinuke May 16, 2013 6:23 PM PDT

May 16, 2013 -- 6:19PM, monkey2k wrote:

1) Are there any rulings that prevent you from marking yourself?
Ignore how hard it is to do and why anyone would want to do it for now (it's for joke-op).

2) If a feature allows me to add an extra 1d6 fire damage to an attack, does the attack gain the fire keyword?
My guess is that it counts as the attack gaining a damage type, and thus getting the keyword, but I'd like to make sure.




1) I think would fall under "bag of rats" rule somehow.

2) RC pg 115. Adding a damage type adds the keyword for that damage type.  Adding 1d6 extra fire damage is adding fire damage therefore adding the fire keyword. 

Flag monkey2k May 16, 2013 6:26 PM PDT
Thanks for the quick reply, I'll sniff around and ask my DM if it falls under the bag of rats rule.
Flag Undrhil May 17, 2013 11:06 AM PDT

May 16, 2013 -- 6:26PM, monkey2k wrote:

Thanks for the quick reply, I'll sniff around and ask my DM if it falls under the bag of-
rats rule.




Unless you frequently make attacks which include yourself, you will basically be giving yourself a -2 penalty to attack rolls by marking yourself.  Some of the mark punishments spell out that a marked "enemy" is the target of the punishment, so you might not be able to punish yourself, either.  Read the wording of your chosen class's mark punishment to make sure it is for "creatures" and not "enemies".

Flag CliveDauthi May 17, 2013 12:15 PM PDT
Is there a way to use Arcana in place of Nature

Trying to Max Arcana for a Ritual User build, do need a way to use that number insted of rolling my Nature; but haven't been able to find a way yet.

Already checked the Arcana check optimization & Comprehensive Skill Substitution List threads
Flag Fox_Frost May 17, 2013 3:11 PM PDT
Is there a guide for optimizing in Heroic tier? What classes shine here? I need to make a level 8 character and have no idea where to begin.
Flag Brother_Griften May 17, 2013 4:37 PM PDT

May 16, 2013 -- 6:18PM, Koshinuke wrote:

A damage roll is very clear.  By RAW(RC pg 222) "... a damage roll: a roll of dice to determine damage." 

So sneak attack/hunter's quarry/MKJ L16 feature/Claw Gloves are a damage roll.  By RAW, they are extra damage and extra damage is considered part of the original power.

However, you can expect massive table variation on damage rolls.  Even this answer is going to spark a debate even though it is the correct RAW answer.  It is not accepted on CharOp because it would rapidly change everything.  For example, adding a damage roll to each attack for Brutal Barrage, thereby getting all the +damage roll modifiers.  Or getting a damage roll on Flurry of Blows and getting those modifiers.

In the example given about MM+Warlock's Curse+Icy Heart+AA:Cold, by RAW it would get the +3.  By RAI and the ruling of most of the people on these boards, no it wouldn't.

Ask your DM.  You will not get a clear answer from CharOp because it would really change the game if you followed RAW for damage rolls.     




Yeah, I was asking for scenarios like this.  So RAW says he would get it?

Flag pinkisthenewred May 17, 2013 4:49 PM PDT
Yes, but just don't do it.
Flag babcock3030 May 17, 2013 7:41 PM PDT

May 17, 2013 -- 3:11PM, Fox_Frost wrote:

Is there a guide for optimizing in Heroic tier? What classes shine here? I need to make a level 8 character and have no idea where to begin.


The answers depend on what class you want to play. There are guides for each class on the forum. 

But the basics: choose a race that gives a bonus to your class' key ability scores, start with a pre-racial 16 or 18 in your main attack stat, pick feats that make your accuracy better (expertise feats, for example) and that enhance what your class features do (backstabber for a rogue).

Flag bullgaria May 17, 2013 8:55 PM PDT
Is the encounter-long slide effect of Nightmare Vortex (lvl 5 battlemind daily) boostable in any way? (all I want is +1, Controlling Advantage is not an option)

As far as I understand, it's not actually part of the attack, is it? (otherwise Rushing Cleats would solve my problem nicely)
Flag Silverseeker May 18, 2013 9:20 AM PDT
Would Ensorcelled Blade trigger Mark of Storm for Storm Sorcerers? The power doesn't deal the typed damage when I use it, so I'm not sure if it would gain the Lightning keyword on use.
Flag Celerian01 May 18, 2013 9:35 AM PDT
Pretty sure that works, since Ensorcelled Blade still has the Thunder and Lightning keywords if you're a storm sorcerer, and Mark of Storm says "thunder or lightning power," not "damage."
Flag xxalex May 19, 2013 1:39 AM PDT
new party, i will be the most experienced player, the others are playing:

fighter sword and board
halfling rogue
sorcerer
cleric
psion(but he isnt really sure yet)

what could be a good addition to this party? 
Flag RayjeEliwan May 19, 2013 2:14 AM PDT
I remember reading that there's something hinky about the RAW on Speaker of Xaos's level 11 power, but unlike Academy Master (where I can totally see what's wrong), I don't see what the issue is. Did I simply imagine the discussion on the problem, or is there something unfortunate in the power that I just don't get? 
Flag Undrhil May 19, 2013 2:27 AM PDT

May 19, 2013 -- 1:39AM, xxalex wrote:

new party, i will be the most experienced player, the others are playing:

fighter sword and board
halfling rogue
sorcerer
cleric
psion(but he isnt really sure yet)

what could be a good addition to this party? 




There are lots of options open to the sixth member of that party.  Since they have all the bases covered, they could go with most any role.  I think most people on these boards are going to say go with a Striker, but there is no reason to necessarily go that route.  A second leader might be good to have, such as a Warlord who hands out attacks like gold stars to kindergarteners. 

Flag baldhermit May 19, 2013 2:29 AM PDT
I would go with an enabler or make sure there is at least one controller.

Failing that, you do not go wrong with a striker that does have an MBA. 
Flag Zathris May 19, 2013 3:17 AM PDT

May 19, 2013 -- 2:14AM, RayjeEliwan wrote:

I remember reading that there's something hinky about the RAW on Speaker of Xaos's level 11 power, but unlike Academy Master (where I can totally see what's wrong), I don't see what the issue is. Did I simply imagine the discussion on the problem, or is there something unfortunate in the power that I just don't get? 



The damage roll (and it is a separate damage roll) doesn't really get many modifiers added to it since it's part of the e11 power and not the triggering power (unlike Echoing Weapon), so that makes it slightly weak as it lacks an accessory keyword, isn't a ranged or melee attack, and has the Elemental source.

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