Jun 21, 2012 -- 10:04PM, Undrhil wrote:

Robe of Eyes is nice, but you should be getting your Oath out there as soon as possible, really.  Once you have it out there, being blinded doesn't cause you to lose it.

Another thing that may be different in my games: the party is often very striker oriented, and rarely runs any defenders at all, and fights standards often and solos rarely, so combats tend to be fast and brutal with Oaths often dying off 1/turn.

A typical party that might show up to the table one day is my Chaser, a Hellfire cheese Warlock, a lazy warlord, and a predator mixed Druid: ~2 Strikers, ~1 Controller, and 1 leader (Warlock and Druid splash roles a bit).

Jun 21, 2012 -- 9:33PM, DeAnno wrote:

On the pull and tactical movement, I tend to fight a lot of battles in cramped quarters or near sheer drops.  This probably makes me overvalue powers that can disrupt formations and are useful for knocking things off cliffs.  I can guess that in open battlefield situations Avenger's Demand becomes a lot less appealing.

I also tend to fight a lot in cramped quarters (where it's harder for team monster to fight in formation) and near cliffs.

You wouldn't use Avengers' Demand to pull someone off a cliff, because they would get a save to basically negate your standard action encounter power.

My usual experience is that my job, as the avenger, is to skip PAST the front line that's clogging the entryway and entagle the guy in the back.  There: I love phasing.  (I love phasing).  I find those to be far more useful in the "tight indoor fight" domain.

Powers like Avenger's Demand are more useful in the outdoor domain, where formation fights are more likely.  Except there you're less likely to run into the "N guys trying to keep you from ganking the 1 mage" fight patterns (because it's too hard to protect the squishy mage outdoors, so magically no encounters have them.)  And there I like woodshed powers more: you have the LoS to places far enough away to take advantage of them.

Yes, hitting with the woodshed power can be a small risk: Dice, Seer, fortune stones, racials, leader boosts.  Or choosing the guy on the edge to take out to the woodshed instead of the guy in the middle: once he's in the woodshed he's not getting back into formation anyway.

But given your examples of "team striker", I'd go with naught but off-action powers.  Team striker's approach isn't to use mobility to get to the wizard fast: it's to use high explosives to get there fast.  Don't worry about tactical problems: apply attack plan alpha to every situation and just blow through the front line.  (And don't worry too much about being blinded.  As long as it's not AoE blind, a teammate will kill the blinding guy and you'll save eventually.  If the fight's over by that point, then obviously you didn't need more optimization anyway)

How would Divine Oracle be if you somehow snagged the new Cleric at will that targets will?  Then you would be making a melee attack vs will.

Bad.

Oath of Enmity

Effect: When you make a melee attack against the target and the target is the only enemy adjacent to you, you make two attack rolls and use either result. This effect lasts until the end of the encounter or until the target drops to 0 hit points, at which point you regain the use of this power.

If another effect lets you roll twice and use the higher result when making an attack roll, this power has no effect on that attack. If an effect forces you to roll twice and use the lower result when making an attack roll, this power has no effect on that attack either.
If an effect lets you reroll an attack roll and you rolled twice because of this power, you reroll both dice.

Only rerolls allow you to make again the double roll attack.

Still is a great at-will for a half-elf.

How does the archer avenger build have two fisted shooter along with the seeker MC?

It will either have the pre-nerf windrise ports background, or have taken the traveller's harlequin PP.

Neither are present, so best guess is that someone missed that TFS has a Rogue Prereq.

I'm pretty sure when it was created that it was using WRP, and that when that was nerfed I went in to change that, and dind't realize at the time that TFS had a class Preq.

Understandable, I just wasn't sure.

Would it be good to try a half elf archer avenger that grabs a seeker at will for the RBA along with Distant Vengence feat?  You could take the one where they have to move or they take wis mod damage and you can take pursuit so they take more damage.  Yes I know it does str mod but there is nothing that states you cannot do adept dilettante to that and make it use wis for everything.

Diamond Cincture/Belt of Vim definately merit inclusion, esp the former since A. Waist items suck, and B. Because it patches up fort a bit, and allows you to heal yourself

Timeless Locket should be there as well, probably a very high black (grumble), or dark blue, considering the init bump and minor --> Standard. In the Radiant One build, its Sky Blue, since triggering that utility as a minor is awesome  

Jun 27, 2012 -- 6:20PM, Koshinuke wrote:

Would it be good to try a half elf archer avenger that grabs a seeker at will for the RBA along with Distant Vengence feat?  You could take the one where they have to move or they take wis mod damage and you can take pursuit so they take more damage.  Yes I know it does str mod but there is nothing that states you cannot do adept dilettante to that and make it use wis for everything.

Depends on your definition of a good idea.

Your spending 3 feats for a solid damaging ranged attack.  So you'd be more versitile, but you really wouldn't be stronger.  Serene archery might also do it for you.

Of course, if your traveling with a difficult terrain druid, with lot's of forced movment, a staggering polearm punting defender with repel charge, and a ranger with a forceful bow, and a skirmishing warlord, then yea... it's probably a good move to pick up some ranged capability.

Added all three.  I generally am not a huge fan of the +Fort items, since I think an Avenger's Fort is basically a lost cause.

Maybe they're too special, but at least these combine nicely:

Carnage Weapon on a Falchion user. Because of the big crit dice it is better than Melegaunt's, as long as you don't fight hordes of Shadows.

Samurai theme combines nicely with Sense Threat on an Elf, who in turn has it also easier to get to an enemy with the shift in some battles.

Aug 1, 2012 -- 2:12AM, TorianT wrote:

Carnage Weapon on a Falchion user. Because of the big crit dice it is better than Melegaunt's, as long as you don't fight hordes of Shadows.

I can't believe I didn't already list it.

But it doesn't compete with an expanded crit range.  It's more in the space of "More Statics".  (Crits don't trigger the property, so the d12 is, IMHO, really just making up for the loss of the property)

Aug 1, 2012 -- 2:12AM, TorianT wrote:

Samurai theme combines nicely with Sense Threat on an Elf, who in turn has it also easier to get to an enemy with the shift in some battles.

Added "Wood Elf" to the better-if section.  How do you mean "easier to get to an enemy"?  Just the way elves can ignore difficult terrain on shifts?

Aug 1, 2012 -- 8:42AM, kilpatds wrote:

Added "Wood Elf" to the better-if section.  How do you mean "easier to get to an enemy"?  Just the way elves can ignore difficult terrain on shifts?

This and you need only +1 speed to have a shift 4. Radiant Temple Uniform can increase this even more with its encounter power.

I found carnage a bit hidden in your weapon feats section, but not among the general enchantment advice, so yes, you had it listed. I was just too blind to find it

Maybe its value depends on the rest of the stuff you have that trigger on crits. Lvl 16 Ardent Champion will put Melegaunt's ahead. But until then it could be in favor of Carnage, but if and only if you use a Falchion, maybe also a Mordenkrad.

How is carnage useful? It seems it only triggers once unless I'm misreading something.

Aug 1, 2012 -- 9:19AM, zelink551 wrote:

How is carnage useful? It seems it only triggers once unless I'm misreading something.

Carnage falchion is nice and stacks well with avenging resolve and Valenar Weapon Training (not many elf barbarians to use it).

*Stacks as in works well with.  It's not muliplied by. 

Aug 1, 2012 -- 8:58AM, TorianT wrote:

Maybe its value depends on the rest of the stuff you have that trigger on crits. Lvl 16 Ardent Champion will put Melegaunt's ahead. But until then it could be in favor of Carnage, but if and only if you use a Falchion, maybe also a Mordenkrad.

Well, let's take a stock comparison of Carnage, Bloodiron (Actual big-crit weapon) and Melegaunts.  Let's assume a .. 80% hit chance, 9.75% crit chance, and a 2[W] standard action?  (more optimized avengers will actually tend toward more 1[W] standard actions until Epic, because they're loading up on off-action attacks.  You'll still get ~2[W] or more per round though)

Fullblade vs Falchion?  Carnage needs the Falchion.  Let's compare VWT to Fullblade.   The fullblade has a [W] value that's 1.5 higher (for 3 more in the 2[W] attack assumed here).  VWT gives a boost of 3 static.  So for "normal", that's a wash.  In the crit case, the fullblade's maxed die is 4 higher (2[W] = 8), while the large HC value continues to offset the +3 static.

So the Carnage weapon will be a Falchion, the other weapons will be fullblades.

Math done with more significant digits than shown

Carnage:
Normal: 0.684(2W max chance) * 8(2*enh) * 0.7(hit chance) = 5.47 * 0.7 = 3.84
Crit: (4*6.5 + 5.47(2[W] carnage bump, high crit) - 4*3.5(generic magic) )*0.10(crit chance) = 1.7
Total: 5.55

Firewind Blade (not true, because you have a hard time finding fire powers):
Normal: (4+1)*0.7 = 3.5
Crit: (8(fullblade)+5(firewind))*0.10 = 1.27
Total: 4.78

Bloodiron:
Normal: 0
Crit: (8+8*5.5 - 4*3.5(generic magic) )*0.1(crit chance) = 3.71
Total: 3.71

Melegaunts
Normal: 0
Crit:  8(fullblade)*0.1(Normal Crit) + 0.93 (was hit, is crit) * (24(maxed 2[W])+8(fullblade)+4*3.5) = 5.04

So that seems to be the baseline.  Carnage in the lead.

Let's add one magic item.  Carnage really wants the gloves of brutal-one.  Let's give Melegaunts a ring of giants.
Carnage:
Normal: (0.80(Carn&Gauntlets) * 8 + 2(gauntlets on normal 2[W] hit)) * 0.7 = 5.92
Crit: (4*6.5 +6.42(carnage) - 4*3.5 + 2)*0.10(crit chance) = 2.0
Total: 7.91

Melegaunts
Crit:  8*0.1 + 0.93 * (24+8+8(ring)+4*3.5) = 5.78

What was close gets pretty blown out by the gauntlets.  But that means you don't have strikebacks... 1/MBA/enc is around 40 damage, so you need to make 6 attacks for it to balance out.  (Ring doesn't have as much competition, to be honest.  Strikebacks also stop working around epic because all the hits you take negate your ability to strike back)

(And yes, an extra MBA on crit from Ardent Champion really blows this out for Melegaunts)

Someone (maybe mvincent?) argued to me once that the "weapon's damage dice" refers to [W], not necessarily individual dice (RC 273 on Damage does make clear that a "damage die" can be "an expression of multiple dice").

After looking at it closely, I'm kinda inclined to agree (and the same argument would apply to Vorpal I guess). In which case a Carnage Falchion is not a very good idea at all, having only a 1/16 chance of rolling an 8.

I guess you could expect table variation though. 

Quick question: Since its Attack doesn't have a Melee keyword, doesn't the E13 Avenger's Demand both deal less damage than normal AND provoke an OA from its target? If so it should probably be red, not purple.

then make the following melee attack against it.

Aug 5, 2012 -- 1:25PM, Armisael wrote:

Quick question: Since its Attack doesn't have a Melee keyword, doesn't the E13 Avenger's Demand both deal less damage than normal AND provoke an OA from its target? If so it should probably be red, not purple.

Um, you would only use it as a reverse approach power: that is, you're NOT adjacent to your target.

It does risk OAs from your target's friends, but it won't provoke from your target.  (As per RC, OAs are provoked when you use the power, which is the initial pull.  Sorry about Deft Strike, post RC, but this power works fine)

Then you make a melee attack.  It says it's melee right in the effect line.  So I think it functions.

Since it can't be ranged and melee at the same time, they included the keyword in the effect line.
So they can have you both provoke OAs initially and get your usual modifiers later.

At least that's what I think about the intention of the writeup.

Hmm...doesn't Thunder and Echo have the same wording as Raging Tempest for its d10? If so, shouldn't that be listed as 'ask your DM', at the least?

Yes, yes it should.

Something just occurred to me: there's barbarian powers that let you add extra W's of damage to your attack by paying a price. How are they worded compared to Living Death Strike? I'm curious because with how weird the wording is it might grant an extra tap. Not likely, but worth investigating regardless.

What's better for a Pursuing Avenger with an Artificer as leader? Having Tempus for RRoT or going a Skill Deity for an MBA Overwhelming Strike? Or going RRoT and taking Melee Training (Wis)? (Rest of party is Swordmage, Elementalist and Druid)

And does the following build look solid enough? Yeah, it's just level 1, but I have absolutely no idea about Avengers so I'd like to do it correct from the beginning.

Character Show

Thanks in advance, this forum is great

Arti's don't tend to grant you attacks, so you'll want an MBA for

• Charging
• Battle-awareness granted MBAs
• Strikebacks or other item-granted MBAs
• Theme-granted MBAs (your theme doesn't grant any)

So the opportunity cost for not having an MBA is a function of the level range you expect to play in and which items you expect to be able to acquire.  (For a real group, ask the DM if you can worship multiple dieties, and/or take Power of Skill despite not worshiping Corelleon, or un-nerf Melee Training).

You have Ki Focus proficiency via your theme?  Are you planning on trying to be a flex-attacker of some sort?  What's the longer-term plan with the Ki-Focus?  (I'm wondering if "+4 to hit when required" is the right option for your racial feature. But if you're planning on usually having a ranged implement power or two, then it certainly is)

For a real group, you pretty much should either ask the DM to allow Power of Skill with Erathis/dedeitify Sword of Hestavar, or just pick The Path of Light as your deity and get both Sun's Solar Enemy and Skill's MBA enabling in one go. Easiest way to get around dumb deity requirements.

Should be pointed out: the RAW on this is that it's totally okay to worship multiple deities. That's explicitly allowed in Divine Power (in multiple places). But it's a really common houserule to not allow it (as well as not being allowed in LFR), so yeah, asking the DM is a good idea first...but don't feel like you're asking for a special exception of some kind.

Aug 8, 2012 -- 11:42AM, kilpatds wrote:

You have Ki Focus proficiency via your theme?  Are you planning on trying to be a flex-attacker of some sort?  What's the longer-term plan with the Ki-Focus?  (I'm wondering if "+4 to hit when required" is the right option for your racial feature. But if you're planning on usually having a ranged implement power or two, then it certainly is)

I'm not sure what you mean by flex-attacker but I picked Elemental Initiate for the off-turn attack, but I thought that there might be some good Ki-Foci. Are there any recommendations you'd make. What's this "flex-attacker"?
About Heroic Effort... well, eh. It's to make certain my daily really hits. The chance is high already, I know, but I don't really need a 3rd At-Will imo. Or would you recommend getting one? If so, which one?

I'll ask the DM if we could remove deity requirements from Feats, or allowing multiple deities maybe he'll give in.

Are the chosen attributes okay?

A flex-attacker is someone who attacks at both melee and ranged.  The stereotypical example would be a hexblade: start off throwing in an AoE blast, then charge into someone you hit earlier to finish them off.  Alternately, if the wizard has the big-scary brute tapped in a corner, just attack them from range and safety....

As far as a possible 3rd At-Will, the default guidance is that Avengers have "Overwhelming Strike" and ... ... ... "Overwhelming Strike", so the 2nd at-will sometimes isn't needed.  But if you're doing the Ki-Focus and Flex-attacker thing, then you have some options.

For example, someone who wanted to isolate monsters might like "Radiant Vengance" as a temp-HP creator before attacking.  But since you're less accurate with it, you'd need Heroic Effort more.

Bond of Censure(?  The one that pulls) has some nice tactical considerations at low-level (pull people out of lines, out of the air), and comes with rerolls.  But is less useful if you like fighting in scrumms.  (Arti,Swordmage,Druid,Sorc?  You're not going to be in that many scrumms.  In fact, you're largest problem will be getting asked to form a line to protect the back-rank people, which is not something avengers are intended to do too often)

In fact, given what I know, I'd tend to suggest starting with Bond of Censure instead of Avenging Shackles.  You get the rerolls sooner (no feat required), and you already have the Ki-Focus proficiency.

Re: Ki-Foci.  IMHO, the best weapon enchantments are WAY better than the best Ki-Focus enchantments.  But the Ki-Focus approach has a lot of additional flexibility.  Implement attacks can now be valid choices (at least melee ones.  But even ranged ones if you keep Heroic Effort).  You can also just pull out a long-bow and just make ranged basic attacks when appropriate.

Which raises a point. I have no good Ki-Focus suggestions.  Usual Suspects: what Ki-Foci should I add? 

Thanks so far already! Tremendously useful information. I suspect by "scrumms" you mean "battles in a very confined area"?

I thought that Ki-Foci with a "Property:" line work when just equipped. Like wearing a Shielding Dagger as a Rogue. Even though you're not attacking with it, you still get the +1 AC for wearing it.

So maybe there are good Foci to just.. wear and use the few times for Bond of Censure.

/Edit: Ah, another question I forgot to ask. Raging Tempest has several damage instances. It does 1[W]+Wis and another 1d6 and another 1d6 when the enemy is struck. So am I seeing it correctly that getting a +1 weapon would increase this abilities damage by 3 since I'm getting +1 to damage rolls and there are three seperate rolls?

Iron body Ki Focus is good if you do not have a good weapon enchant.  1+enhancement damage resist to all damage the target you hit with it can extend your life some.  Or Rain of Hammers and get bonus damage to an adjacent target when you kill something.

Ah, so I can't have a weapon property and a Ki-Focus property at the same time. Guess that makes sense.

I was hoping for a Carnage Weapon.

Koshinuke: You're an avenger.  There shouldn't be adjacent targets at the instant you kill something.

Re: Foci with properties.  Any properties that occur on Hit or Attack only work if you're using the Foci for the attack.  Things like "+1 AC" would apply for forever... but since AV1, they've gotten better about items with properties like that.

Re: Raging Tempest.  If your DM says it's 3 damage instances, YES, a +1 weapon would increase it by 3.  That's the whole point of looking for multiple damage instances.

However, only certain DMs will make that call.  Unlike the "ask if you can worship multiple dieties" thing that usual, this one is completely grey, if not dark-grey.  As a DM, I'd make a ruling based on the rest of the party ... and looking at what I know about the rest of your party, I'd bias toward calling it one damage instance.

 

Assuming the part isn't no-op, it's honestly only fair to give the Avenger the two-hit version of Raging Tempest. It fills a hole in their powerset that is otherwise gigantic, and should generally be the standard (ideally, the damage instance you get is the lightning one so you can apply charge bonuses twice, but it's no big deal if you don't). The three-hit version really should only be used in either very high op campaigns or if you're playing full RAW.

Ok, added a bunch of Ki Focus after a quick look through the compendium.  As expected, nothing spectacular.

Aug 8, 2012 -- 1:36PM, Armisael wrote:

Assuming the part isn't no-op, it's honestly only fair to give the Avenger the two-hit version of Raging Tempest. It fills a hole in their powerset that is otherwise gigantic, and should generally be the standard (ideally, the damage instance you get is the lightning one so you can apply charge bonuses twice, but it's no big deal if you don't). The three-hit version really should only be used in either very high op campaigns or if you're playing full RAW.

Even erachima would disagree with you. I've never seen anyone but you assert its 3x

Aug 8, 2012 -- 11:05PM, zelink551 wrote:

Aug 8, 2012 -- 1:36PM, Armisael wrote:

Assuming the part isn't no-op, it's honestly only fair to give the Avenger the two-hit version of Raging Tempest. It fills a hole in their powerset that is otherwise gigantic, and should generally be the standard (ideally, the damage instance you get is the lightning one so you can apply charge bonuses twice, but it's no big deal if you don't). The three-hit version really should only be used in either very high op campaigns or if you're playing full RAW.

Even erachima would disagree with you. I've never seen anyone but you assert its 3x

Nah, as I recall erachima thinks that's the correct reading. He's the one who pointed the whole thing out to me.

Nope, erachima stated the plus 1d6 lightning is an extra damage roll, but that the 1d6 later was bounded by the allies damage roll

So.. err.. how many damage rolls does it have now? I'm slightly confused. It sounds like it's just 1 as the "an extra 1d6" is attached to the weapon roll and the other d6 attached to the allies damage roll. Making it one single roll.

Except its not "an extra 1d6", its "plus 1d6"

Aug 9, 2012 -- 8:16AM, MMPech wrote:

So.. err.. how many damage rolls does it have now? I'm slightly confused. It sounds like it's just 1 as the "an extra 1d6" is attached to the weapon roll and the other d6 attached to the allies damage roll. Making it one single roll.

It very well might be.  See where it says "ask your DM"

Aug 9, 2012 -- 8:34AM, zelink551 wrote:

Except its not "an extra 1d6", its "plus 1d6"

Sorry, was writing off my memory, should've checked the power first. My bad.

Guess I'll stick to asking my DM, thanks for your patience guys, I know I can be pretty daft.

Nah, its a screwy grey area of rules land. All good

Sooo, wiki vanished?

Er? That's not good...

Edit: 9am PST: I've poked a couple of people (one WotC employee who was involved in previous Wiki issues, one thread, on ticket to the ORCs).  I've been told someone's looking into it.  No ETA.

Edit: 3pm PST: it's back up. 

Whew!

I need help figuring out which PP to take on the avenger I'm currently playing.

Dol Show

With paragon coming soon I've been trying to figure it out.  One option is to go MC ranger at 10 then at 11 to grab Horizon Walker but I'm not sure if I really want to do that.  Any suggestion welcome.  Some choices are made because of RP, I play a character who was forced back to life in revenant form as punishment for a crime against the Raven Queen.  Dol only wants to rejoin the long dead and so tries to get herself killed when possible, of course the Raven Queen does not allow that to happen (re-fluffed powers, effects etc...).  Much thanks !

Tried to make a Wis/Int/Morninglord/Radiant One/FWB Avenger and i have to say, the Power selection is even way worse, than i suspected. Ideas i had, was MC SM + Power swaps to get at least some decent multiattacks and utilities. Second option i tried, was to hybrid Warlord (since hybriding with classes with strong lazy powers doesn't make you suffer from Avenger hybriding's restrictions), picking Combat Commander and to fill those power slots with at least some strong Lazylord powers. On top of that i went HElf, poached Twin-Strike and locked my MC slot with Adept Dilettante. Both variants seemed "OK" to me, but it was really costly and i didn't have the feeling that they could really keep up with some real strikers. I've seen erachima's Mia and it's really cool, but i'm 100% sure, my DM wont allow it. So, are there any other ways, besides Mia, to make a top notch striker out of an Avenger? Any things that one really shouldn't miss, while trying to build this? Thanks in advance!


Edit: The static mods of this build are really damn impressive by default, even more with a FWB, and i'd add solar enemy on top, but that's all crap without decent multiattacks. :/
Third idea i had was to go Deva + SotW and poach SoB and later HoB from Barb and use Bracers of Mental Might. But this way is costly, as well.

You MC Arti for Prismatic Strike.

There have been a few threads I have seen about this topic.  They mostly centered around twin strike or eldritch strike.

Twin Strike = critfish(basically 4 chances to get a crit on an attack), and it gets even better when you have an increased crit chance

Eldritch Strike = MBA, which can access all the white lotus feats and eldritch admixture

Do not make the mistake of thinking that more damage is worse than more attack rolls.  When you throw out 4 dice for attacks, that is good chance that you can get a crit if you have an increased crit chance.  Add in two weapon opening and one of those crits can open up another attack.  If you are doing the morninglord/radiant one combo, this is what has the most damage because you can double tap the vulnerability and have a better chance of doing punishing radiance.  +20+int mod damage to all atacks you make until the end of your next turn is a big chunk of damage.

On the other hand, the white lotus feats are amazing and can give you an extra attack each round and bonus damage form WLR and WLMR.  If you mc into warlock, you can get access to arcane admixture and add a damage type and then take the elemental feats to boost it.  Like adding cold and doing frost cheese.

And this is only part of it.  There is a lot more than what I have mentioned. 

Mar 24, 2013 -- 11:31AM, Koshinuke wrote:

There have been a few threads I have seen about this topic.  They mostly centered around twin strike or eldritch strike.

Twin Strike = critfish(basically 4 chances to get a crit on an attack), and it gets even better when you have an increased crit chance

Eldritch Strike = MBA, which can access all the white lotus feats and eldritch admixture

Do not make the mistake of thinking that more damage is worse than more attack rolls.  When you throw out 4 dice for attacks, that is good chance that you can get a crit if you have an increased crit chance.  Add in two weapon opening and one of those crits can open up another attack.  If you are doing the morninglord/radiant one combo, this is what has the most damage because you can double tap the vulnerability and have a better chance of doing punishing radiance.  +20+int mod damage to all atacks you make until the end of your next turn is a big chunk of damage.

On the other hand, the white lotus feats are amazing and can give you an extra attack each round and bonus damage form WLR and WLMR.  If you mc into warlock, you can get access to arcane admixture and add a damage type and then take the elemental feats to boost it.  Like adding cold and doing frost cheese.

And this is only part of it.  There is a lot more than what I have mentioned. 

All that's pretty obvious.

As i said, all i lack are more attacks/turn, since i already have the rerolls and the huge static mods, that are additionally of the best kind, as you already mentioned, since they all apply to Firewind Blade's procc, which i want to abuse.
So i need a way to get more multiattacks, poached of a Wis (there is none with fitting powers, that i know of) or an Int class (Swordmage or, better, since it's an Int triple hitter, Artificer for Prismatic Strike, as Zelink mentioned - thanks for the hint btw).

I don't think the White Lotus route is very good on a pure striker, since reactive (and, on top of that, ungranted)  damage is generally worse than direct dmg on your own turn, imo.
If i'd go HElf and poach an At-Will, i'd definitely go for Twin Strike. With Overwhelming Strike i already got a strong MBA.
Frost Cheese will be achieved by using Whetstones, anyway, since they're easily affordable by mid paragon or so.

I think i'll go Artificer then, since Prismatic Strike is pure win (triple hit, adds status effects and even targets NADs). I just got to check if there are fitting Artificer utilities and dailies, as well, that i could poach.



Edit: I really prefer going for some strong encounter multi poaching over Twin Strike, at least in a strikerheavy group or a group with a "switch" that ends encounters fast enough, so i don't have to use my non-MBA At-wills at all, most of the fights. With a Wis/Int build i have to decide which way to go and which to leave behind.

Hmm, this is a tough one. SM got 

a) earlier access to strong swaps
and 
b) strong choices of each kind: enc, daily and utility 

Artificer got Prismatic Strike pretty late and until then i run with Vengeful Parry, Soulforge Hammering (kind of a double attack, but it eats a minor per round in addition)
and Fury's Advance (must-have, since nearly everything in this build applies to the double tap)  
All in all my arsenal is not very satisfying till 23, imo.
Plus, the utilities of SM are awesome and, what the Avenger lacks, damage boosting. Artificer's are nice, as well, but more leaderish. I'd pick Slick concoction anyway, tho, since it's too good for a party not to have (at least with classes that like minor attacks). Later on i'd pick Bag of the four Winds.
But all in all, im really not sure, which one to take...

Spoiler: Show


That's the first of two possible builds i considered. Items are random, i tried around a bit, feats are not in the most op order. Maybe i should drop some feat to pick up epic fortitude. The second build would be a Deva/Morninglord/Soul of the World (Genasi + X [Tiefling, most likely, for more static mods]). It would have better hit (not that important on an avenger, tho) and could swap SoB/HoB (Bracers of mental might; i had to pick up this helmet, that gives item dmg boni to wis attacks then, tho) and some utility with tiefling, like damage stance or Aggressive note. It would be really feat starved, tho, so i guess it wont work properly and satisfying. Could be cool, but this one feels cleaner. In this one i only had to drop the feat, that let's me use oath for free and epic fortitude (which i consider taking in again). 
As theme i went Sohei for obvious reasons, although i consider taking Samurai rather than Sohei, since Ini should be an autowin.
What do you think? What should i change?


Edit: Pure Glow is actually pretty decent on this build, so i wont ResMan. Even more since i dont have any good <11 EncPower that i swap out later and that would be worth wasting a feat.

Ability scores would be 10 14 12 26 26 14.
Tried power attack but droped it.

Edit: Added 5 Stars 5 Strikes, Theme could as well be occultist, if OoE stacks with it (OoE states that only if something else lets you roll twice, it wont stack and occultist lets you roll 3 times). Oh, and build nr. 2 can't use Firewind Blade, so i think i'll just stick with the one i posted and adjust it, if necessary.

You are being a disrespectful little boy. Learn to use the edit button.

What do you guys think would be a good PP for a Unity avenger? Looking through the handbook, it seems Ardent Champion is pretty darn good, but unfortunately for me its Pursuit only.
I was looking at Favored Soul, but being Unity I figure I'd spend most time in formation, not charging at things with the flight.

Dread Imperator is the only Unitarian-limited PP, but it doesn't look that great.

Morninglord, Paragon of Victory, Paragon Multiclass Warlord.

Also Battle Engineer.

Yeah, that would also do it. Not sure how much you'll get out of the F16 though.

May 12, 2013 -- 7:04PM, erachima wrote:

Morninglord, Paragon of Victory, Paragon Multiclass Warlord.

How do you get a cleric at-will for Paragon of Victory? Or this option is only for Half-Elves?

May 13, 2013 -- 3:56AM, DarthPotater wrote:

May 12, 2013 -- 7:04PM, erachima wrote:

Morninglord, Paragon of Victory, Paragon Multiclass Warlord.

How do you get a cleric at-will for Paragon of Victory? Or this option is only for Half-Elves?

Well, I don't know if this is advisable or not, but one way would be to hybrid with a Cleric.

Never Hybrid an Avenger with anything.

May 13, 2013 -- 3:56AM, DarthPotater wrote:

May 12, 2013 -- 7:04PM, erachima wrote:

Morninglord, Paragon of Victory, Paragon Multiclass Warlord.

How do you get a cleric at-will for Paragon of Victory? Or this option is only for Half-Elves?

And where, praytell, does it say that it's a cleric at-will you know?

Because if I can just use powers I don't know, then all my characters will use Twin Strike, including all the Avengers.

And the day you find a power that says "Effect: use a ranger at-will", you're welcome to do so.

For precedent, note that the errata document clearly states that the previous version of Quickened Spellcasting let you use powers you didn't know.

Are there any decent Arcane ones, outside of Battle Engineer? I was thinking of taking Sage of Ages for ED, so an Avenger/Arcane PP would be preferable. If there's nothing suitable, I could use Soul of the World instead.

Simbarch of Algorond or however that's spelled. Weird striker feature as an E11.

May 13, 2013 -- 7:41AM, zopple wrote:

Are there any decent Arcane ones, outside of Battle Engineer? I was thinking of taking Sage of Ages for ED, so an Avenger/Arcane PP would be preferable. If there's nothing suitable, I could use Soul of the World instead.

As ED, Radiant One is a must if you play with a Morninglord or even more, if you are one yourself. SotW is also viable (it's one of the very few cases where it's no insta pick, if you're able to pick it), but Radiant One is strictly superior, if you go the generic vulnerability/FWB route, which you should go.

Yes, Morninglord/Radiant One/Pelor's Boon is the "win D&D answer", but since D&D's not a game you're supposed to Win with bigger numbers ... ...

 As far as Arcane PPs I can suggest: community.wizards.com/charop/wiki/Avenge... includes Simbarch of Aglarond (Salve of Power suggested as Eq), Wizard of the Spiral Tower.

Feytouched opens up power swapping for Ethereal Sidestep...but you'll also need to Reserve Maneuver out your e11.

And I'm running out of suggestions.  The other benefit of Battle Engineer is that it sets you up to power swap for Prismatic Strike at level 23, if that's interesting to you.

May 13, 2013 -- 5:55AM, erachima wrote:

May 13, 2013 -- 3:56AM, DarthPotater wrote:

May 12, 2013 -- 7:04PM, erachima wrote:

Morninglord, Paragon of Victory, Paragon Multiclass Warlord.

How do you get a cleric at-will for Paragon of Victory? Or this option is only for Half-Elves?

And where, praytell, does it say that it's a cleric at-will you know?

Oh that is .... interesging. Thank You

I have to imagine if you want to eat things alive,

Avenger/Artificer/Morninglord/Radiant One
powerswapping for Prismatic Strike and using a Firewind blade. I think I managed to get statics over 100 somewhere in early epic with that, it frightened me, and I walked away

Thanks for all the help, it's appreciated. I might go with Favored Soul/Sage of Ages in the end, after consideration the other players are all first-timers too, and 'over-optimising' (don't hurt me) might take the fun out of it for them.

May 13, 2013 -- 12:43PM, zopple wrote:

Thanks for all the help, it's appreciated. I might go with Favored Soul/Sage of Ages in the end, after consideration the other players are all first-timers too, and 'over-optimising' (don't hurt me) might take the fun out of it for them.

Not at all. You want to optimize in a similar vein as others, except when they're so bad you NEED to optimize to make up for it.

Two last options to consider, Battle Awareness > Kensei and Divine Healer > Warpriest.

Are both of these strong on their own, or are other feats needed to make them good?
Thanks.

Well, Battle Awareness rocks.  It's totally a feat to consider, even if you go Morninglord. (Kensai's good, but not great and not interesting).

Warpriest, OTOH, leads toward a bit of a different biuld.  A Tactical Warpriest likely wants to wield a flail, and prones with Overwhelming Strike (&Flail Expertise).