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To be honest, I don't know the exact wording of dual implement spellcaster - maybe it is indeed delivering the power with both implements - in which case it do work.

SongNSilence wrote:

Hm, i wonder why other builds use it this way. Since there was no discussion about this, i just assumed it works.

Ditto. :P

I'd like to see what dual implement spellcaster is like though. If a spell is getting the damage from the off-hand item I'd assume it's being cast through as well and would work.

SongNSilence wrote:

Its a leftover from using agile chain for armor (agile: add +dex bonus to ac, max +3). You need dex 13 in heroic for some feats, but you could put one point somewhere else.

Why not drop dex to 13 start, 15 end. and pump CHA 1 to get another will defense? That'd seem like a smart choice.

Kryx wrote:

I'd like to see what dual implement spellcaster is like though. If a spell is getting the damage from the off-hand item I'd assume it's being cast through as well and would work.

I have the exact wording now, hope its ok to post it here:

Dual Implement Spellcaster
Pre: Dex 13, any arcane class
Benefit: When you use an arcane attack power and you are wielding a magic implement in each hand, you can add the off-hand implement's enhancement bonus to damage rolls.
Both of your implements must be usable with this power, and you must be capable of wielding both implements, to gain this benefit.

So, hm. Both implements must be usable with this power, and the off-hand implements enhancement bonus is added to damage. Do you think thats enough to say the power is delivered using both implements ?

Why not drop dex to 13 start, 15 end. and pump CHA 1 to get another will defense? That'd seem like a smart choice.

Good idea, i will add it to the big mainpost revision i'm working on.

I also went through and sourced all the feats, powers, and gear in the swordmage build. Feel free to add it in yours.

Thanks ! Thats sure to be useful with so many books involved. Here are the missing sources:
Arcane Insight (Enc2, reroll arcana check) -> Dragon 366
Swordburst -> Forgotten Realms Players Guide

Kryx wrote:

It could be overpowered, but so is bloodclaw/reckless. I personally try to avoid those 2 like the plague. We'll have to wait for an official ruling or some form of consensus from some big thread where people aggressively argue about it for 8 pages. :P

ah it's Sword Burst. 2 words. That's why my search didn't bring it up.

All right, i updated the main post. I added a build that sacrifices 70 DPR for extremely high defenses, since i think much more than 250 DPR is often unnecessary. Additionally, it is less featstarved, so other options would also become viable. I used the free feats to improve the second at-will: Sword Burst is now a burst 2, dealing damage to 5x5 squares (no damage to allies)...

Edit1: I decided to remove subtle from the main build. I talked it over with my DM, and he ruled against it. So now the build deals 6 less DPR (much was regained by making it bloodiron -> better two damage). On the other hand, it contains no more controversial interpretations of the rules now...

Edit2: Ok there still was a controversial rule: using MC Bard + Multiclass Mastery for three multiclass feats. I kicked Rogue and Bard, so now there is only one multiclass feat. It even had a positive effect on dpr... (300->327) :D

Kryx wrote:

Our spells are not a weapon attack.

Hm, i'll see what i can do. Unfortunately, both wizard and sorcerer implements require the wrong stats...

What was the purpose of Roundabout Charge? What does removing it prevent us from doing?

Cannot charge the target from adjacent position - need to move (OA) first, or charge another target. I removed it because the correctness of the MC Bard->Multiclass Mastery combination is currently a open question forwarded to the devs.

Why remove Subtle? Did some post convince you it doesn't work?

I have arcane power now. The evidence towards subtle working is not very good. And without Fey Gambit, there is no CA anwyay.

We lost Fey Gambit. QQ. How does that figure into the calculations for hitting? I don't see the +2 from CA of Fey Gambit missing anywhere.

Its bonus is missing for round1. Consecutive rounds get enough average hits in the previous round (thus increasing to hit via academy master).

Resounding Thunder [PHB]+ Arcane Admixture (sword burst, thunder) [AP] for a burst 2 on Sword Burst seems like a pretty hefty price. 25 squares is cool to hit, but is it really functionally worth 2 feats? How often are you in a place where hitting 25 squares is necessary?

Quite often (but our dm really likes big battles), and as soon as there are more than 2 enemies in the area, its a good echoes of thunder / to hit gathering setup (the normal charge is only worth +2 to hit / +6 damage). But, the feats can really be used for anything - more damage, ritual caster, a familiar, whatever you like.