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borg285 wrote:

I see that both the staff and dagger specify "this implement/weapon", so how are you distributing magic missile channeling, because you obviously can't assume both properties apply to the casting.

Why should the property use with staff/dagger be any different from staff/orb or any other implement combination ?

Edit: Ah i see. You could be right, in paragon, use a jagged dagger (main implement) and a normal dagger+6 (off hand). Oh, and iron armbands of power for the item bonus. Starts with -1 to hit that way...

Also, what would be your paragon feat linup after 11th?

white lotus riposte + white lotus master riposte for the lose-lose situation (if your mark attacks you, at-will magic missile. if it attacks someone else, teleport+magic missile) would seem most important to me

Arturis wrote:

I'm a little confused about your DPR calculations:

Hit: 8(int)+6(item)+6(enh)+6(dual implement)+6(subtle)+3(feat)+1(twf) = 4d4+36 (48)

Are the numbers in parentheses supposed to be average damage? Because 4d4 has an average damage of 10, so 4d4+36 should be 46 average.

I use the gloves of destruction, which allows damage rerolls on melee attacks if a 1 comes up. Due to Reapers Touch, Magic Missile is a melee attack. So 4d4 average is 12, or 3 damage per d4.

Also, I didn't look much at the build, but shouldn't some portion of your damage on a crit be maximized? I only see you using average damage numbers in your equation, even in the terms that are supposed to represent critical hits.

Yes, the 4d4 are maximized. However, since i already reroll all 1's, this doesn't add much - its now 4 damage per d4 instead of 3 damage per d4

Anyway, the build is interesting, the numbers just confuse me a bit.

Thank you

Kryx wrote:

I'm a bit confused in this area. From my understanding of 2 weapons or 2 implements you don't have to choose which benefit, the attacks get both. (Say bloodclaw and reckless cheese for melee characters). Is it not this way? Is it not this way with implements?

IF I am assuming properly, could you dual-wield 2 staves? Why even have the dagger? Is there no good staff option that is a better option than 1 feat for +6 dmg from subtle(dagger)?

How are 2 different implements working with the Implement Expertise feat?

EDIT: You don't even have the Arcane Implement Proficiency (dagger) in the newest Swordmage build. How are you using a dagger in the OH as an implement?

As was stated before, a swordmage can use a light blade / heavy blade as his implement. He, being a dual class swordmage | wizard can thus use either implement for either powers.
The thing I don't get is how you can use both properties. The reckless + bloodclaw works because reckless doesn't specify "this weapon" for adding the damage. Both the dagger and staff specify "this weapon/implement" in their properties. You are either channeling the power through the dagger or the staff, not both.

borg285 wrote:

As was stated before, a swordmage can use a light blade / heavy blade as his implement. He, being a dual class swordmage | wizard can thus use either implement for either powers.
The thing I don't get is how you can use both properties. The reckless + bloodclaw works because reckless doesn't specify "this weapon" for adding the damage. Both the dagger and staff specify "this weapon/implement" in their properties. You are either channeling the power through the dagger or the staff, not both.

What Kryx said. There are properties that don't trigger off a hit with "this weapon", but just on a hit, like subtle weapon. So a jagged dagger won't work with the missile staff, but subtle dagger will (lvl 11 snapshot if fixed now). Other good weapon propeies not bound to an attack with the specific weapon: thundergod weapon (melee attack deal +2d6 on charge), mace of the healer (enh bonus to healing powers), staggering weapon (weapon power with slide->add enhancement bonus to slide), retribution weapon (on being hit. next attack deals (enhancment)d6 damage)) etc.

At least thats how i think the other builds use implements this way. This is my first wizard build, and only my second arcane build, so i kinda went with what the others did .

Kryx wrote:

Song: What feat requires 16 dex?

Its a leftover from using agile chain for armor (agile: add +dex bonus to ac, max +3). You need dex 13 in heroic for some feats, but you could put one point somewhere else.

Merchant_of_Shadows wrote:

But it IS true.

AV page 56:
Many weapons have properties that provide a constant benefit. To gain the benefit of a weapon’s property, you must be wielding the weapon. Unless specified otherwise, a property affects only the weapon to which it’s attached. For example, a +2 cunning dagger, which bestows a –2 penalty to an enemy’s saving throws against your weapon powers, affects only powers that are delivered using that weapon.
You couldn’t hold the weapon in your off-hand and gain the benefit of the property on powers delivered using a main weapon.

Hm, i wonder why other builds use it this way. Maybe due to dual implement spellcaster delivering the power with both ? Its my first real caster build, so i used ideas from other builds (in this case, the cold sorcerer). Since there was no discussion about this, i just assumed it works. Without it, i would loose 26 DPR (0.95*3*6 + 0.1*3*6 + 0.19*0.95*6 + 0.99*6) for a still respectable 280DPR.

Or i could use a reckless handaxe in the offhand, not loosing anything (loose +6 enh from dual implement, +6 from subtle, gain +12 from reckess, freeing up the dual implement spellcaster feat for leather armor/feywild protection) ?