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I asked a question to customer service, due to suspect wording on some of the healing boosts. It was a lengthy question, and some of the replies didn't make total sense to me, but the following was pretty clear:

"When an ally regains hit points by hitting the target of your Astral Seal or
Recovery Strike is the ally a target of the power?"

No.

So, I don't think Gloves of the Healer, Compassionate Blessing, and Mournland Dedicate add to Astral Seal because of the wording. More precisely:

Gloves of the Healer (epic): "When you use a power that has the healing keyword, one target regains an extra 2d6 hit points." Your power didn't have the ally as a target, and so no extra hit points.

Compassionate Blessing: "...the power's target regains 2d6 additional hit points..." Your ally is not the power's target so no additional hit points.

Mournland Dedicate: "...healing powers that target you or any ally within 5 squares of you restore 2d6 extra hit points..." This power does not target an ally, so no extra hit points.

Aside from these three though, everything else does add to Astral Seal. So I think it's going to be just a flat 44 in this case.

Of course, it's possible I may have asked my questions in a leading fashion, so if someone else wants to double check, or give reasoning why it should be ruled one way or another, that would be great.

Mengu74 wrote:

I asked a question to customer service, due to suspect wording on some of the healing boosts. It was a lengthy question, and some of the replies didn't make total sense to me, but the following was pretty clear:



So, I don't think Gloves of the Healer, Compassionate Blessing, and Mournland Dedicate add to Astral Seal because of the wording. More precisely:

Gloves of the Healer (epic): "When you use a power that has the healing keyword, one target regains an extra 2d6 hit points." Your power didn't have the ally as a target, and so no extra hit points.

Compassionate Blessing: "...the power's target regains 2d6 additional hit points..." Your ally is not the power's target so no additional hit points.

Mournland Dedicate: "...healing powers that target you or any ally within 5 squares of you restore 2d6 extra hit points..." This power does not target an ally, so no extra hit points.

Aside from these three though, everything else does add to Astral Seal. So I think it's going to be just a flat 44 in this case.

Of course, it's possible I may have asked my questions in a leading fashion, so if someone else wants to double check, or give reasoning why it should be ruled one way or another, that would be great.

If that's true then the following powers won't gain any benefits from the aforementioned features/items
Healing Strike(encounter 1)
Recovery Strike(at-will 1)
Beacon of Hope(daily 1)
Hallowed Advance (daily 5)
Consecrated Ground(daily 5)
Spirit of Healing(daily 6)
Stream of Life(daily 6)
Zealous Sanction(encounter 7)
Strengthen the Faithful(encounter 7)
Strike of Judgment(encounter 7)
Crucial Resurgence(daily 9)
Divine Fury(daily 9)
Remorse(encounter 13)
Mantle of Glory(encounter 13)
Inspiring Strike(encounter 13)
Divine Reprisal(daily 15)
Purifying Fire(daily 15)
Indomitable Spirit(daily 19)
Spirit of Health(daily 22)
Healing Torch(encounter 23)
Divine Fervor(encounter 23)
Life Lanterns(daily 25)
Healer's Reproof(encounter 27)
Sacrificial Healing(encounter 27)
Sunburst(encounter 27)
Breath of the Stars(daily 29)

The only ones left are mostly utility powers that target the ally. Most of the powers say things to the effect "allies in the blast/burst can spend a healing surge/regain HP equal to..." That's quite a list they meant to exclude.

At this point it might be common sense to simply say that any creature that is specified for a power is a target of the powers in some form, not necessarily for the hit line and the attack.

borg285 wrote:

Most of the powers say things to the effect "allies in the blast/burst can spend a healing surge/regain HP equal to..." That's quite a list they meant to exclude.

At this point it might be common sense to simply say that any creature that is specified for a power is a target of the powers in some form, not necessarily for the hit line and the attack.

"Target" is a pretty well defined game term. It's only 2 features and 1 item that don't jive well with the powers you listed. Perhaps the fault is in these features and item, and not the interpretation of "Target" that's used everywhere.

I've made some revisions to the build after reading through some suggestions. I felt that it was worth it to downgrade the Mace of Healing to +3 to make way for a Cincture of Vivacity, because you wouldn't want to waste any healing you grant yourself, as well as three Keoghtom's Ointments to grant the party three more healing surges. I also exchanged out Mourning Savior for Chosen, since +2 Wis/Cha seems like a better deal than the conditional +2d6 healing. Lastly, I swapped out Sever the Source for Bane, since a -8 penalty on attack rolls and all defenses is serious business for a level 1 encounter power, and Penance of Blood for Brilliant Censure, because of the newfound lack of Sever the source.

Here's my outline of a 1-30 build. Sorry for the formatting issues
I prefered to stay with the old epic destiny because the +2d6 applied to all but 1 of my powers.

Feats Show
Powers Show

Items Show

@2nd level Show

@8th level Show

@16th level Show

Instead of Keoghtom's ointment, get Ring of the dwarflords as it's a free healing surge at no daily item cost. I don't know what would happen if you were at zero healing surges and removed one.

I'm surprised at myself, giving so much healing optimization advise. I'm usually a DPR kind of guy. I guess my analytical mind applied well on this field.

as per you the healer favoring cincture of vivacity over healer's sash, I'd prefer the sash. there aren't many times I'm spending a healing surge myself for myself, which is were the vivacity comes into play. The belt offers the party one more healing surge as it comes pre-packaged with a counter, and with as many heal boosters as you have, it's better in your hands/waist than others. Just make sure that the rest of the party is wearing the vivacity.

I still don't know where the original epic destiny is found. Would someone enlighten me?

FRPG I believe or the Dragon about it

borg285 wrote:

as per you the healer favoring cincture of vivacity over healer's sash, I'd prefer the sash. there aren't many times I'm spending a healing surge myself for myself, which is were the vivacity comes into play.

You're second on the DM's priority list, the first being the defenders, if you're some sort of uber-healing monstrosity. That's why you most likely will end up on the receiving end of much of the enemy's firepower, and thus why you should have a Cincture yourself.

borg285 wrote:

I still don't know where the original epic destiny is found. Would someone enlighten me?

It's from the Eberron Player's Guide.

borg285 wrote:

Here's my outline of a 1-30 build. Sorry for the formatting issues
I prefered to stay with the old epic destiny because the +2d6 applied to all but 1 of my powers.

I must admit that the ability scores in the OP topic are disingeniously optimized specifically for level 24, given that it's a 17/15 setup. If you planned on taking this character from anywhere lower than that, especially beginning at heroic or epic, it would be much more wise to go for 16/16 so that you could have Student of Artifice and Potent Restorables even before reaching level 21.

Is there any reason you can't go with 10 Con at level 1, and start with 13 int, with your current stat setup?

Sithobi1 wrote:

Is there any reason you can't go with 10 Con at level 1, and start with 13 int, with your current stat setup?

You can, but I'm not that fond of 17/15 at level 1. A better ability score array at that level would be 8 Strength, 10 Dexterity, 11 Constitution, 13 Intelligence, 16+2 Wisdom, 16+2 Charisma.

Quick question:

Could someone point out what the background does/where it's from?

Murkglow wrote:

Quick question:

Could someone point out what the background does/where it's from?

You use your highest ability score in place of your con for HP

Ah, must be from EPG or FRPG then I assume.

Murkglow wrote:

Ah, must be from EPG or FRPG then I assume.

Actually, it is from Dragon 366.

I somehow missed Defensive Healing Word in Divine Power, which has now taken the place of Weapon Proficiency (Parrying Dagger), resulting in our white mage now wielding a Mace of Healing and a Medic's Mace (healing maracas~?). It makes Healing Word mind-blowingly awesome.

What, no Bard, MC Warlord, Artificer, Cleric, Shaman? Wouldn't that be the ultimate healer?? Or am I mistaken?

Gavinfox wrote:

What, no Bard, MC Warlord, Artificer, Cleric, Shaman? Wouldn't that be the ultimate healer?? Or am I mistaken?

Read, comprehend, post. In that order

lot_ofsnow wrote:

Actually, it is from Dragon 366.

I see... Is there anything else in this from Dragon?

Jeebus that's alot of heals... llike... that's ridiculously "healy."

I want one in my party....

Adslahnit, great work! Pacifist healers are always a fun archetype to toy around with. On a mechanical note, does Astral Seal actually trigger Mark of Healing? The relevant Compendium text for Mark is "Whenever you use a healing power on an ally...". Has there been an official statement on what exactly constitutes "using a power" on someone?

FuzzD wrote:

Adslahnit, great work! Pacifist healers are always a fun archetype to toy around with. On a mechanical note, does Astral Seal actually trigger Mark of Healing? The relevant Compendium text for Mark is "Whenever you use a healing power on an ally...". Has there been an official statement on what exactly constitutes "using a power" on someone?

I'd take the stance that the power is acting on them, arguing that unlike other feats and items it does not have the restriction, "if you target an ally with a healing power" thus making mark of healing not work. But I may be commiting the munchkin fallacy

borg285 wrote:

I'd take the stance that the power is acting on them, arguing that unlike other feats and items it does not have the restriction, "if you target an ally with a healing power" thus making mark of healing not work. But I may be commiting the munchkin fallacy

So...I can't quite tell what you're saying here. Do you believe that Astral Seal's healing will trigger Mark of Healing?

Yes, I do. I'm also saying that I admit to committing the munchkin fallacy in that by implying that the feat does not say, as do many others, that the power must "target" the ally that it must therefore not have that requirement. By leaving the wording vague("acting on") and not specific("targets an ally") it must therefore does not require that the power have the ally in the list of the targets. "Acting on" could then be extended to include this power as well as most all healing powers that simply say, "allies in burst get X."

Merciful healing is a nice paragon healer feat to grant another saving throw with the already powerful healing word

borg285 wrote:

Yes, I do. I'm also saying that I admit to committing the munchkin fallacy in that by implying that the feat does not say, as do many others, that the power must "target" the ally that it must therefore not have that requirement. By leaving the wording vague("acting on") and not specific("targets an ally") it must therefore does not require that the power have the ally in the list of the targets. "Acting on" could then be extended to include this power as well as most all healing powers that simply say, "allies in burst get X."

Mark of Healing isn't crystal clear. However, "use a healing power on an ally" strongly suggests the ally is a target as you don't cast Astral Seal "on an ally."

One other RAW thing, Healer's Brooch and Healer's Implement both are enhancement bonuses, so they shouldn't stack.

furious_kender wrote:

Mark of Healing isn't crystal clear.  However, "use a healing power on an ally" strongly suggests the ally is a target as you don't cast Astral Seal "on an ally."

You don't use Healing Strike on an ally either, but an ally gets healed. Little difference. You don't suddenly start applying your healing bonuses to the target you hit with healing strike.

furious_kender wrote:

One other RAW thing, Healer's Brooch and Healer's Implement both are enhancement bonuses, so they shouldn't stack.

Incorrect. Neither bonus indicates that you should add it as a typed bonus, and as such both are untyped. If they meant to type the bonus, it would say something like "add the ’s enhancement bonus to the hit points gained as a bonus." See wording on staff of ruin for an example.

Doesn't imp. expertise give you +3 to hit at epic?

Cespinar wrote:

Doesn't imp. expertise give you +3 to hit at epic?

Not until level 25

Mengu74 wrote:

You don't use Healing Strike on an ally either, but an ally gets healed. Little difference. You don't suddenly start applying your healing bonuses to the target you hit with healing strike.

Yes I agree.  Mark of healing wouldn't apply to Healing Strike either. 

Mengu74 wrote:

Incorrect. Neither bonus indicates that you should add it as a typed bonus, and as such both are untyped. If they meant to type the bonus, it would say something like "add the ’s enhancement bonus to the hit points gained as a bonus." See wording on staff of ruin for an example.

Ok, so you are arguing that when something says "add your symbol's enhancement bonus" and "add your brooch's enhancement bonus" they mean add the enhancement bonus as an untyped bonus?  I'm sorry, but I believe you're mistaken here because you're drawing a rule from an abnormal item.

The reason the staff of ruin specifies that you add the enhancement bonus "as an item bonus" is because if the description read " add the staff ’s enhancement bonus to damage rolls" it wouldn't be very ruinous as the staff, like all implements, already adds its enhancement bonus to damage rolls.  Therefore the designers had to specify "as an item bonus" to show it had an additional effect beyond the effect all implement have.    I can't find any item anywhere that uses the "add it's enhancement bonus as an enhancement bonus" language you imply is normal when adding an enhancement bonus.

Another example, the disrupting weapon, which "can be used as a holy symbol. It adds its enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls."  Notice how it doesn't say adds its enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls as an enhancement bonus?    The reason is that if it says ”add its enhancement bonus," you add an enhancement bonus. 

Yet another example, swordmage class states that "Your blade adds its enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls and any extra damage granted by a property (if applicable) when used as an implement." In the character planner, this language is translated as an enhancement bonus when used as an implement and not the untyped bonus you're arguing it should.

In short, the healer's brooch and healer's implement grant enhancement bonuses and therefore don't stack.

Some considerations for PP: Compassionate Healer grants the biggest raw healing boost, but at 5 HP a pop. The Holy Emissary seems like a better choice: +1d6 to divine heals instead of +2d6 and +2 defense for all heals for 5 HP, plus an extra encounter healing power. Miracle Worker might be better if you have dwarves in the party...and I'm not finding it now, but isn't there a feat or feature that makes Second Wind a minor action for everyone and a free action for dwarves?

The Astral Servant might end up providing more healing as well, if your party is large or crit-focused.

Also consider Glorious Channeler + Blessing of Silvanus.

MindWandererB wrote:

Some considerations for PP: Compassionate Healer grants the biggest raw healing boost, but at 5 HP a pop.

You, the healer, also get a +2 power bonus to all defenses until the end of your next turn for the effort.

MindWandererB wrote:

The Holy Emissary seems like a better choice: +1d6 to divine heals instead.

Only for a bloodied target. This build aims to heal allies before they reach bloodied so that they're supercharged with temporary hit points, thanks to Cinctures of Vivacity.

MindWandererB wrote:

plus an extra encounter healing power.

The Holy Emissary's attack powers deal damage, which is against this build's theme.

MindWandererB wrote:

isn't there a feat or feature that makes Second Wind a minor action for everyone and a free action for dwarves?

The Stoneheart Warrior epic feat from Martial Warrior only makes Second Wind a free action for dwarves.

MindWandererB wrote:

Also consider Glorious Channeler + Blessing of Silvanus.

Not worth the feat slots, in my opinion. The benefit is simply too minor.

I don't know how this is treated on CharOp yet, but having queried CustServ after a player tried to pull this in my campaign (and finding that they agreed with the player's interpretation), a character that plants a battle standard of healing is considered to be using the battle standard's power, and thus gains all benefits as it it is his healing power being used; until it is removed or the end of the encounter.

Thus if wearing a +6 Healer's Brooch, that +1 hit point to all allies in a burst 5 centered on the standard becomes +7 hit points; and this would also trigger Reinforcing Healing (for every ally within the burst 5 centered on the battle standard)... every time any ally in that burst spends a healing surge.

Very nice build , congratz

A question about Pacifist healer,

borg285 wrote:

Mind you the pacifist healer only gets dazed if he attacks a bloodied foe, so he can use attacking powers at the beginning of combat instead of doing nothing.

Why do you only get dazed instead of stunned?

ennerre wrote:

Very nice build , congratz

A question about Pacifist healer,



Why do you only get dazed instead of stunned?

I think that was a mistake on his part, but the main point he was making still stands, which is you can hurt non-bloodied targets as much as you like.

Aha, ok then, I really wanted it to be a way to turn it into dazed. Though it's true about damage to non-bloodied targets, you'll have to be careful, specially in encounters against solo monsters.

@borg285 1-30 Build powers.

Instead of
7. Break the Spirit
I would take Denunciation(DP), it's no damage, dazed and impose a penalty not only to attack roll but also to defenses. Downside, less range.

Instead of
13: Mantle of glory
I would take Remorse(DP), same healing as Mantle of glory but it's no damage, the target is dazed and gain vulnerability 10 to all damage until the end of your next turn. Downside, less area of effect.

For lvls 25,27,29 I propose:

25. Sacred Word(PHB) or Life Lanterns(DP)

27.Healer's Reproof(DP)

29.Enforced Surrender(DP)

Damn I want to play a Cleric ^^

ennerre wrote:

Damn I want to play a Cleric ^^

Indeed, after a little bit of messing around I found that even at lower levels this character is just about as ridiculous when comparing your healing numbers to total hp- Astral Seal still heals more than the surge value for half the party, Healing Word can take you from 25% hp to full health in one go, etc...

Toss in a more buff-centric leader like a Taclord to stand beside this character and you end up with a pretty crazy party.

I dont have my books with my right now,

I assume you chose the channel divinity for Melora,but what does this divinity grant you (is it very helpful to the build). I havent seen it noted on the forum yet.

Someone in my campaign just designed a similar character, except chose the channel divnity for the kalashtar (path of light.) She is wondering if she needs to take healer's mercy considering all the healing she has (level 2 PC), plus the Path of lights channel divinity (helped by the fact I am a warlord that can make it effective for at least 2 people with my movement abilities).

I think she wants to keep Turn Undead, because that could be much more devestating to use at the beginning of certain encounters. She argues she has a surplus of healing, and very effective healing at that.

What are your guys opinion. We start the campaign next week so it hasnt been tested yet.

I would recommend going either Life Transference for level 2 utility for non-surge based healing if she has the HP and/or converting turn undead to healer's mercy if she feels she needs more healing, unless she foresees undead up ahead. Astral seal should do most of the healing at this point and is recommended as real healing is more persistent than temporary HP which disappear at the end of the encounter.

Nah, I don't think the OP uses Melora's Tide- it doesn't do anything that Healer's Mercy wouldn't handle much better. The Chosen ED doesn't require it anyway.

What book contains this Path of Light ability?

The problem that I have with Life Transference is that this character doesn't really have any non-surge healing that works on itself, and you're already pretty fragile compared to an average character.

What book contains this Path of Light ability?

Eberron Players Guide. taking the channel divinity feat for it.

Basically you create a zone that is a 1 by 1 square that lasts until the end of your next turn. Whenever an ally ends his turn in the square, it gains hit points equal to your healing surge value (before all the other bonuses)

Since I am a warlord, I can shift allies around a bit to make sure at least 2 people get a use.

SenorOcho wrote:

Life Transference

doesn't really have any non-surge healing that works on itself

Er... You can touch yourself for a free +1 surge of HP, plus any bonuses to healing...

Oh, ok, was having a little confusion in finding it. :embarrass

If your party has two leaders and she already has a Channel Divinity that is doing healing, then Healer's Mercy might not be necessary. Also depends on what kind of controller you have in your group (if any)- if you've got an invoker or wizard who's really doing their job then you might find Healer's Mercy useful more often.

Could you point out how you got your spread to work the way it does? Or post a starting spread. Because I cannot for the life of me figure out how you got the ability scores you posted at 24, much less how you could pick up Student at Artifice before 21.

What am I missing?

Isenhertz wrote:

Could you point out how you got your spread to work the way it does? Or post a starting spread. Because I cannot for the life of me figure out how you got the ability scores you posted at 24, much less how you could pick up Student at Artifice before 21.

What am I missing?

the Epic destiny adds +2 to 2 specific attributes

That still doesn't explain the spread. As listed, it attains INT 13 at Epic, so 21 is the earliest possible for Student of Artifice. How does the build pick up Potent Restorables as early as the OP seems to suggest?

Besides, the way the OP outlines his spread at 24, he started with a really weird allocation of 8 12 10 11 17 13, and 4 points left over. I'm just wondering, what gives?

Isenhertz wrote:

That still doesn't explain the spread. As listed, it attains INT 13 at Epic, so 21 is the earliest possible for Student of Artifice. How does the build pick up Potent Restorables as early as the OP seems to suggest?

I'm not sure what you mean? He retrains into it at 21/22 or whatever.
I don't see where he says he takes it earlier (though I might have missed it).

Isenhertz wrote:

Besides, the way the OP outlines his spread at 24, he started with a really weird allocation of 8 12 10 11 17 13, and 4 points left over. I'm just wondering, what gives?

He starts with a 15 in Cha. So 8/12/10/11/17/15 would be the starting spread.

Yes his point spread is wonky, he was optimizing for the best performance at level 24 for some odd reason. *shrug*

Well, I may have misread the OP -- he talks about select Heroic feats, not when he actually takes them. That probably threw me off.

If you're playing this character from lower levels, I'd start Str 8, Con 11, Dex 10, Int 13, Wis 16(+2), Cha 16(+2) and grab Student of Artifice immediately after Pacifist Healer.

While I'm thinking about it, Messenger of Peace and Miracle Worker both seem like they'd also work really well with this build.

here is a level 8 build to critique...CB Build Show As it stands, you have the following bonuses to healing;bonuses Show And the following healing powers;Healing Powers Show

SenorOcho wrote:

If you're playing this character from lower levels, I'd start Str 8, Con 11, Dex 10, Int 13, Wis 16(+2), Cha 16(+2) and grab Student of Artifice immediately after Pacifist Healer.

If you don't mind waiting for paragon for the Artificer MC (which I think wouldn't be a huge issue since you still heal way more then needed without it) I'd start with a 8/12/10/12/16/16 to give you slightily better mods in the end.

I love this build but I have a question I've been wondering about...

(I know it's not optimized, but it's fun flavor!)

If you drop the artificer mc and take the spirit talker mc feat (phb 2, pg 196)
it lets you have a cute little spirit companion! If you choose spirit's shield when you take this feat, your companion can strike a target to heal an ally for your wisdom modifier in HP.

Would the cleric's class feature, Healer's lore, let you add (again) your wisdom modifier to the hp your ally regains when your spirit companion strikes a target?

Are there any other ways of increasing the hp your ally would regain from your companions attack?

Thank you in advance!

Avonderre wrote:

I love this build but I have a question I've been wondering about...

(I know it's not optimized, but it's fun flavor!)

If you drop the artificer mc and take the spirit talker mc feat (phb 2, pg 196)
it lets you have a cute little spirit companion! If you choose spirit's shield when you take this feat, your companion can strike a target to heal an ally for your wisdom modifier in HP.

Would the cleric's class feature, Healer's lore, let you add (again) your wisdom modifier to the hp your ally regains when your spirit companion strikes a target?

Are there any other ways of increasing the hp your ally would regain from your companions attack?

Thank you in advance!

Healer's lore only works with cleric powers.
check the OPs equiptment. I think most will apply to powers that restore HP, so it might work with this. The main question would be is Is is more effective than astral seal? That critter would have to be a pretty mean healer to best Astral seal.

Your spirit makes opportunity attacks to do its healing. As such it's not replacing astral seal, but being used in conjunction with it. ^^

Is it possible to remake the build using only LFR legal stuff?

I don't do LFR so I'm not familiar with what's legal or not (I'm assuming EPG is not! :D ), but you could easily just not MC Artificer and substitute in any +Wis race in place of Kalashtar. Shame that there's no other Wis/Cha races, though.
The majority of the build is just from Divine Power and Adventurer's Vault.

Well most everything is legal, but a few things, like the dragon mark, aren't.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=rpga/news/20090617

I can probally help with posting a LFR legal break down, might take me a couple hours but ill try my hardest! (I do make mistakes, im human, if you would point them out so i can get this down.)

-OP; when making builds like this, try not to use multiple realms, you are using backgrounds from scales of war, with realm specific feats from eberron. While in LFR you can use most Eberron feats, not all, no mark feats. The reason why some of your orgional stuff is OP, is because it wont work in 95% of the gaming world, im sure there are some that would allow you to use multi realm stuff. I know I wouldnt.

I will try to get the basic build up, then later either tonight(its early i might pass out) or tomorow, go though mods to look at loot and what you can expect to be carrying each level.

Level 1 Snapshot Show
Level 1 Healing Breakdown Show
Level 2-10 Show
Level 11 Snapshot Show
Level 11 Healing Breakdown Show
Level 12-20 Show
Level 21 Snapshot Show
Level 21 Healing Breakdown Show
Level 21-29 Show
Level 30 Snapshot Show
Level 30 Healing Breakdown Show

Okay, I queried Customer Service about the enhancement bonus thing, as it just has not been sitting right with me. I first tried to be as generic and unbiased as possible, and the initial response was not what I wanted to hear. So I then posted a more biased follow-up, and after a few days of review they came back with the answer I was hoping to hear. But since they reversed their initial ruling, and my follow up was definitely biased, my guess is that those of you who seem to desperately want the bonuses from a Healer's Brooch or Holy Healer's Weapon or the Healer's Implement feat to be enhancement bonuses and not stack won't accept their answer.

Here is a link to the discussion, which I already posted on the consolidated customer service answers thread; http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php? … tcount=532 - the key phrase from the follow up answer being "Only items the specify a bonus type (i.e. "add this item's bonus as an enhancement bonus", for example) have their bonus typed. All unspecified bonuses are untyped."

Now, to sum up the points of argument from my second query; for those who refuse to believe customer service... perhaps you can refute these points where they could not?

A) Many items specify the type of bonus being added - I pulled 4 for this example;
a1. The robe of scintillation (http://www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compe … x?id=1132) specifies that you "add the robe's enhancement bonus as an enhancement bonus to..." (emphasis mine)
a2. The symbol of resilience (http://www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compe … x?id=2010) specifies that you "add the symbol's enhancement bonus as a power bonus to..." (emphasis mine)
a3. The defensive weapon (http://www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compe … x?id=1414) states that you "add the weapon's enhancement bonus as an item bonus to..." (emphasis mine)
a4. The robe of the Archfiend (http://www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compe … x?id=1142) states that you "add the robe’s enhancement bonus as an enhancement bonus to ..." (emphasis mine)

B. Many other items leave the bonus type unspecified (or untyped) - here are a few examples of such (mostly directly related to this thread);
b1. the holy healer's weapon (http://www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compe … x?id=1518) simply states "add this weapon's enhancement bonus to..."
b2. the healer's brooch (http://www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compe … x?id=3030) reads "add the brooch's enhancement bonus to..."
b3. the imposter's armor (http://www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compe … x?id=1009) states that you "add this armor's enhancement bonus to..."

C. If using the enhancement bonus of an item to determine the numerical value of a bonus (and there is no type specified) automatically makes the bonus an enhancement bonus, then logic dictates that using an ability score to determine the numerical value of a bonus (but with no type specified) automatically makes the bonus an [ability score] bonus.
Thus, we would never have an untyped bonus equal to our character's charisma modifier - that becomes a charisma bonus which won't stack with itself. Likewise if we use our strength modifier to determine a bonus' value, it is now a strength bonus and those don't stack either.
This would be extended to every other bonus in the game which is currently untyped, and would lead to only a very few (static) bonuses remaining untyped. Can you see the folly in this?




So, there is the link to Customer Service agreeing with me in the end, and if you can't accept their word, there is the logic I would ask you to disprove. As for me, the bonuses remain untyped and will all stack in my games.

Clever Touhou inspiration in example character is clever.

I am Steveman and I approve this concept.

Im planning on making a kalsashtar cleric for my next campaign and was wondering if you guys could make the stats for this build from 1-30 so I can have a good idea on what to take for the character. Sorry if this has been done already in the thread and if so which post was it in?

Ninja_Monkey_Trainer wrote:

Im planning on making a kalsashtar cleric for my next campaign and was wondering if you guys could make the stats for this build from 1-30 so I can have a good idea on what to take for the character. Sorry if this has been done already in the thread and if so which post was it in?

I'd probably go 12 str, 12 con, dex10, int 8, wisdom 18, cha 18. This will allow scale and light shield at paragon level and give you the best astral seal healing and good cha penalties. If you don't care about AC, then you can place the 8 in str and move the two points into dex.

I know I should take Astral Seal and Sacred Flame as my at-wills and Healer's Mercy as my channel divinity, but what powers, feats, and items should I take to go along with this build up to level thirty?

Ninja_Monkey_Trainer wrote:

I know I should take Astral Seal and Sacred Flame as my at-wills and Healer's Mercy as my channel divinity, but what powers, feats, and items should I take to go along with this build up to level thirty?

If you're going with this build (ie MC artificer and so on) you need an Int of at least 11 (preferably 12 or even 13) so I'd stick with a 8/12/10/12/18/18 for this build (yes that means no scale... Price you pay for having the best heals). Feats and Items are simple, just look at what is currently listed, think about what looks best early on and pick it. Items you just take the lowest version of the listed items and work your way up.

Ninja_Monkey_Trainer wrote:

I know I should take Astral Seal and Sacred Flame as my at-wills and Healer's Mercy as my channel divinity, but what powers, feats, and items should I take to go along with this build up to level thirty?

http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php? … stcount=22

Thanks borg285 that will be a great help. Where can i find the stats for Shared Valor Armor?

Ninja_Monkey_Trainer wrote:

Thanks borg285 that will be a great help. Where can i find the stats for Shared Valor Armor?

AFB, but I believe in PHB 2

My current character is a cleric and I was wondering if I could wield a small Healer's Shield while also wielding a Holy Healer's Mace in my shield hand. I know I can't attack with it and I wouldn't want to. I just want to be able to use its property and ability. I should state that in my main hand I have a Healer's Mace.

With ADV 2 out is there any new items in it that would be better than the ones that the build already has?

Aug 13, 2009 -- 12:37PM, Ninja_Monkey_Trainer wrote:

My current character is a cleric and I was wondering if I could wield a small Healer's Shield while also wielding a Holy Healer's Mace in my shield hand. I know I can't attack with it and I wouldn't want to. I just want to be able to use its property and ability. I should state that in my main hand I have a Healer's Mace.

If you can find a mace with the off-hand property I think you should be good to go.

Healer's Armor is an obvious choice for this build, in AV2. 

Aug 30, 2009 -- 7:57PM, FreshPrinceofBelial wrote:

Healer's Armor is an obvious choice for this build, in AV2. 

would you be so kind as to sumarize how this armor would impact this build?

Same as the Healer's Brooch if I remember correctly.  Enhancment added to healing though the exact wording is different which could lead to more arguements over its application/use with various powers (it specificly says "target" regains additional hit points).  For example it's very questionable (to the point were a "no" seems to stand forward in my mind) weather it would work with Astral Seal.

Does it say something like "When you use a power that enables you or an ally to regain hp, add this armor's enhancement bonus to the hp gained."?

I believe it's chain armor (though now I'm stretch my memeory a bit).

Is it chain? and how much is the +5 bonus one? or the +4 one?

Looking through the topic, I can't see any summary of how much healing this build gives with its various healing powers. What are the numbers?

Aug 31, 2009 -- 9:00AM, Jailbreaker wrote:

Looking through the topic, I can't see any summary of how much healing this build gives with its various healing powers. What are the numbers?

Borg did some calculations for his build: link #22

I've been running a similar build myself, and for each level:

• You heal for about 75-100% of the average healing surge value with Astral Seal.
• You heal anywhere from 80% to 100% of their full health with powers that spend a healing surge.

In addition, you can pass out a large pile of saving throws, and you have awesome damage-reducing debuffs for foes. It's pretty amazing/broken/fancy.

This thread has been a great help to me when building my cleric.

Aug 30, 2009 -- 9:44PM, Ninja_Monkey_Trainer wrote:

Is it chain? and how much is the +5 bonus one? or the +4 one?

Hide and Chain.  It's a level 5/10/15/20/25/30 item, so on the higher side for items, but worth it.

Property:  When you use a healing power, the target regains additional hit points equal to the armor's enhancement bonus.

It just adds more healing to an already healing intensive build.  I've loved working off of this build.  I roll really, really poorly, so being able to heal makes me feel useful in a group without having to worry that I natural 1'd for a third time in a row.  It's also allowed my DM to create really nasty fights where enemies can hit for a surge or more worth of damage, and it'll be ok.  That's a good thing, because I can't see a "by the book" encounter being difficult unless the monsters being fought were near impossible to hit.

 

Sep 2, 2009 -- 12:39AM, FreshPrinceofBelial wrote:

Aug 30, 2009 -- 9:44PM, Ninja_Monkey_Trainer wrote:

Is it chain? and how much is the +5 bonus one? or the +4 one?

Hide and Chain.  It's a level 5/10/15/20/25/30 item, so on the higher side for items, but worth it.

Property:  When you use a healing power, the target regains additional hit points equal to the armor's enhancement bonus.

It just adds more healing to an already healing intensive build.  I've loved working off of this build.  I roll really, really poorly, so being able to heal makes me feel useful in a group without having to worry that I natural 1'd for a third time in a row.  It's also allowed my DM to create really nasty fights where enemies can hit for a surge or more worth of damage, and it'll be ok.  That's a good thing, because I can't see a "by the book" encounter being difficult unless the monsters being fought were near impossible to hit.

 

I completely agree with you.  Its a great feeling when you fully heal every person in your party except one because he was out of range, with one power and have everybody else at the table say, "Wow that's a lot of healing!"  This actually happened during my last game day.

Well we ran an LFR version of the character.. And it was goood. At level 1, being able to pop off heals at surge + 8 + 2d6, our healer only needed to use his ability once and people where pretty much fulled.

Is the post supposed to end at Keoghtom's Ointment?  I was thinking of making a cleric build based on a trick I found, and I could really use a good healer guide to help me fill in blanks, but this seems incomplete.

try my summary

Is the healer's armor the only thing from AV 2 that would work awesome with this build?  Like is there a good arm slot item?

I'm working up a (only) slightly different build for LFR right now.  If I go with Human, I'll lose one point of Charisma based healing, but gain an additional feat as well as an additional at-will.

At level 1, I'm looking at:

=====

Mahlar, level 1
Human, Cleric
Build: Shielding Cleric
Background: Impiltur (Impiltur Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 11, Dex 10, Int 13, Wis 18, Cha 16.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 11, Dex 10, Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 16.


AC: 16 Fort: 11 Reflex: 12 Will: 17
HP: 30 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 7

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +6, History +6, Religion +6, Diplomacy +8, Heal +9, Insight +9

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics -1, Bluff +3, Dungeoneering +4, Endurance -1, Intimidate +3, Nature +4, Perception +4, Stealth -1, Streetwise +3, Thievery -1, Athletics -2

FEATS
Cleric: Ritual Caster
Human: Student of Artifice
Level 1: Pacifist Healer

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Astral Seal
Channel Divinity: Healer's Mercy
Cleric at-will 1: Sacred Flame
Cleric at-will 1: Gaze of Defiance
Cleric encounter 1: Exacting Utterance
Cleric daily 1: Beacon of Hope

ITEMS
Ritual Book, Everburning Torch, Chainmail, Sunrod (4)
RITUALS
Gentle Repose, Comprehend Language

=====

Though I'm still wavering as to which is more effective at level 1, Pacifist Healer or Potent Restorables.  

Human allows the cleric to be more effective early in his career (as it seems most non-convention oriented LFR that I do involves characters of relatively low level). 

I'm fairly certain that the level 2 feat will be whichever of the PH or PR feats that I don't take at level 1.

So is the consensus that the heal from Astral Seal is considered to be targetting an ally?

Admittedly, I only read briefly after Borg's summary, but I didn't see a lot of criticism regarding using "Mark of Healing" with Astral Seal.

While playing my cleric, I've never considered Astral Seal's heal to be targeted/used on an ally, because I am not actually determining which ally gets healed. If you were targetting a creature, but at the same time were limitting who could benefit from the heal to a single ally, I could see the thought process behind it; but since you have no control after the hit, how do you arrive at the conclusion that you are targetting the ally?

Further confused because you did not include "Gloves of the healer" as part of your Astral Seal, which would seem to follow from you considering yourself to be using a healing power on an ally. Is using on an ally that different from targetting an ally?

 

And next a question regarding my own possibly flawed interpretation. I've been applying my healing bonuses to Stream of Life, but it is seeming really overpowered (to the point of trivializing any encounter in which it is used). I justify this because two interpretations of it seem valid:

1. I am targetting myself with this power, therefore I add my healing bonuses to what it does (including any targetted bonuses). As such, whatever healing bonus I have at the time of use should apply to all following rounds until the effect ends. This interpretation would exclude any bonuses that could only be given to allies (as I am saying that I am the target).
2. The target of the heal is actually an ally, therefore I am healing that ally with all of my healing bonues (and can include any targetted/ally bonuses).

I consider the first more valid, though the second to at least hold some water. Thoughts?

First of all stream of life does not allow you to target yourself as it says, "an ally within 5 squares of you regains 15 hit points." You are not your ally.

On to the other controversial things.  Using a power only happens once, thus all things that say, "when you USE a power with the healing keyword (effects happen)" this effect is only triggered once.

 

I am aware that it cannot be used to heal myself, as I am not my own ally. However, the use of the power is "personal", which is what I refer to in targetting myself. Yes I cannot use the power to heal myself, but its actual target is myself. I would question saying that the power ever targets an ally, given that they are usually very specific in the formatting used for the "target" line.

 

I still do not understand the reasoning behind using the Dragonmark as part of Astral Seal.

From the Compendium "Whenever you use a healing power on an ally or use Heal to allow an ally to spend his or her second wind, that ally can also make a saving throw.", but the Astral Seal power targets an enemy, not an ally.

I am trying to understand how an ally hitting an enemy with Astral Seal on them equates to "you use a healing power on an ally".

I recently started a game in which 6 members of the party are Kalashtar and we've begun coining the Path of Light domain feat as the Kalashtar Healing dance. As an out of combat heal it is simply amazing. The caster uses one healing surge to grant the same amount of healing to up to 8 other allies. It can be used in combat but becomes a round of no outgoing damage.

 

Kalashtar Healing Dance (Path of Light Domain Feat)

Spend a healing surge and cast the zone in the center of a group. There can be a target there or not. Each ally that ends its turn in the square gets back healing as if they spent a healing surge.

x = allies
o = ally who last ended his turn in the zone

xxx
xox
xxx

Now for the fun part. After the previous person has ended their turn, the next person uses their standard action to move the person in the zone into their space, while also moving into the zone. They end their turn in the zone and get healing as well.

xxx
xxo
xxx

and then the next person does the same.

xxx
xxx
xxo

and so on

xxx
xxx
xox

This is an out of combat maneuver in most cases as it requires the group to be together and effectively takes up a full round action. However out of combat, can become a very unique ritual for healing in the light. Spend one healing surge to heal up to 9 people of their own healing surge value.

 

Kalashtar Mosh Pit of Healing (Path of Light Domain feat)

After thinking about it more it also works with the bullrush rules as well if you leave one of the outring empty.

x x
xox
xxx

The first person ends their turn in the zone, then the next uses a standard action to push them out of the zone into the open space, as part of the bull rush they move into the space their opponent vacated and end their turn gaining the healing. The next person pushes the previous person out of the zone into the new open spot and enter the space they left. And so it goes until all 8 people have ended their turn in the zone.

I'm going to use the simple way of determining whether the bonuses from mace and brooch stack.

Char builder.

I put both of them on, and my healing bonus to astral seal did not go up.  So I'm guessing, regardless of what Customer Support said (after being prodded, it seems), it was not intended to stack.  Which actually makes sense, as now I can take a brooch or mace I like instead (like the one that lets me end an effect).

 

 

CB is definitely janky: for me the Brooch affects astral seal; the mace doesn't, regardless of whether the brooch is equipped or not. (and we all know the CB is, like CS, not always valid).

So, (for me) it's not that they don't stack, it's that healer's mace is coded wrong - it doesn't add anything to *healing word* either, when it's the only item equipped, so that pretty much invalidates it as a test case.

Healing Word doesn't have anything added to it period, as far as I can tell; that was always tested manually.

I'll play around with the others when I get home, though.

Oct 9, 2009 -- 11:43AM, Cybit wrote:

Healing Word doesn't have anything added to it period, as far as I can tell; that was always tested manually.

Opposite is again true for me; healer's brooch's +x is added in the "regain an additional X points" line that is placed there by healer's mercy.

CAVEAT: i haven't built much cleric, so can't say if this was always so.

EDIT: realized i could come off as sounding standoffish and difficult - certainly not my intent. i wish we could trust the CB, since it would be faster and easier and involve less fuss - but sadly, there are and have always been, too many wonky things just like this.

Heh, yeah, I'll check it out.

I wish they'd actually calculate out the full healing word for you, but, eh, it happens.  I'll just ask my DM about the healer's mace and all stacking, that's what'll matter in the end.

The character builder does not add +heal correctly at all.  So please do not use it to figure out anything for healing.  The only thing is does a fairly good job at is +damage.

Thisa thread is really great and has helped me looking at my cleric.  The problem is, he's an RPGA LFR cleric -- and a dwarf.  Though I'm looking at a bit of a long road of retraining, is there anything specific that I can do to make up for being stuck as a dwarf and not a kalashtar, or of things that I should take advantage of as a dwarf (Shield the Fallen?).

Thanks for the help;  I appreciate it.

Load up on Silver sand.  for 125 gp a pop you increase your healing by 5.  That should cover any missing feats/stats.

The artificer feats now only apply to artificer powers, so I'm guessing MCing into it would no longer be a big priority/even wanted? Will there be any update on this build or does anyone want to give their take on it as the powers/feats stand now?