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Switch to Forum Live View Infernal Wrath: The Tiefling's Handbook
4 years ago  ::  May 08, 2009 - 1:48PM #31
Pundrake_the_Mad
Date Joined: Jul 6, 2008
Posts: 365

Lord_Ventnor wrote:

Huh... I never would have guessed. That's rather fascinating, actually.

If you could post a build, that would be excellent. :D


I'm still fiddling around with MC options for levels w/o good fear/fire powers. Invoker/Warlock is kinda weird, so I'm looking at others instead. Or maybe I'll just post a single-classed Tiefling Invoker with a few not-quite-optimal powers.

I'll have something finished Real Soon Now.

PtM

Your house-rules suck.
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4 years ago  ::  May 09, 2009 - 1:11AM #32
Elder_basilisk
Date Joined: Dec 16, 2005
Posts: 2,524
I think you should take a second look at the tiefling warlords section.

I would actually put tieflings down as dark blue for resourceful warlords. Yes, the path looks like it was built with tieflings in mind since they get a bonus to both secondary stats but in practice, most resourceful warlords will favor either Int or Charisma because while there are a host of powers that benefit from one or the other, there is generally a good power that benefits from either Int or Charisma at every level. Additionally, the very good infernal strategist paragon path enables the resourceful warlord to pick up a second presence--as a consqeuence, at level 16, the resourceful warlord is going to gain a massive set of powers that benefit from only Int or only Cha. Again, since the warlord can only pick one power per opportunity, the warlord who focuses on one stat and lets the other mostly mind its own business will get more out of his powers than the one who tries to advance both secondary stats.

With that in mind, I suggest the following pre-racial stat spread is generally ideal for a resourceful warlord.
str 16,
dex who cares?,
con 11 or 12,
Int 16, 13, or 12,
Wis who cares?,
Cha 16, 13, or 12

(I suppose you could also aim for a post racial Str 16, Dex 11, Con 13, Int 16, Wis 8, Cha 16 and advance in the same manner, but I don't think it is generally as effective).

Now, tieflings can do that well, but dragonborn or genasi do it better depending upon whether the character wants to focus on Int or Cha.
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4 years ago  ::  May 09, 2009 - 12:02PM #33
Pundrake_the_Mad
Date Joined: Jul 6, 2008
Posts: 365
As promised, here's an example of a Tiefling Invoker emphasizing fear/fire powers. I'm the first to admit that I'm no great optimizer -- this build could probably be improved. And I haven't equipped it yet.

The point of the exercise is to try getting Tiefling Wrathful Invokers out of 'red' territory, if possible, using their Hellfire Blood racial feat, in conjunction with lots of fear and fire keyword powers. Does this work?

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
Ruin, level 30
Tiefling, Invoker, Turathi Highborn, Demigod
Divine Covenant: Covenant of Wrath
Divine Spark: Divine Spark Constitution
Divine Spark: Divine Spark Wisdom

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 26, Dex 12, Int 16, Wis 26, Cha 16.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 16, Dex 10, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 12.


AC: 29 Fort: 34 Reflex: 31 Will: 34
HP: 152 Surges: 14 Surge Value: 38

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +23, Insight +28, Diplomacy +23, Intimidate +23

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +16, Arcana +18, Bluff +20, Dungeoneering +23, Endurance +23, Heal +23, History +18, Nature +23, Perception +23, Stealth +18, Streetwise +18, Thievery +16, Athletics +15

FEATS
Invoker: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Hellfire Blood
Level 2: Implement Expertise (staff)
Level 4: Staff Fighting
Level 6: Invoker Defense
Level 8: Resonating Covenant
Level 10: Surging Flame
Level 11: Fiery Rebuke
Level 12: Overbearing Retribution
Level 14: Lightning Reflexes
Level 16: Speaker of the Gods
Level 18: Blood Thirst
Level 20: Point-Blank Shot
Level 21: Invoked Devastation
Level 22: Irresistible Flame
Level 24: Font of Radiance
Level 26: Triumphant Attack
Level 28: Opportune Reflexes
Level 30: Blind-Fight

POWERS
Invoker at-will 1: Avenging Light
Invoker at-will 1: Grasping Shards
Invoker encounter 1: Astral Terror
Invoker daily 1: Summon Angel of Fire
Invoker utility 2: Shroud of Awe
Invoker encounter 3: Sun Hammer
Invoker daily 5: Icon of Terror
Invoker utility 6: Symbol of Hope
Invoker encounter 7: Baleful Eye of Judgment
Invoker daily 9: Fourfold Invocation of Doom
Invoker utility 10: Angelic Visage
Invoker encounter 13: Pillar of Guardian Flame (replaces Sun Hammer)
Invoker daily 15: God Hammer (replaces Summon Angel of Fire)
Invoker utility 16: Walk Between Worlds
Invoker encounter 17: Blood Debt (replaces Astral Terror)
Invoker daily 19: Tomb of Magrym (replaces God Hammer)
Invoker utility 22: Covenant of Vengeance
Invoker encounter 23: Vindicating Flames (replaces Blood Debt)
Invoker daily 25: Rain of Colorless Fire (replaces Tomb of Magrym)
Invoker encounter 27: Invoke Terror (replaces Baleful Eye of Judgment)
Invoker daily 29: Invoke the Absolute Dark (replaces Icon of Terror)

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======

PtM
Your house-rules suck.
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4 years ago  ::  May 09, 2009 - 6:56PM #34
Black_Egg
Date Joined: Apr 19, 2008
Posts: 2,317
It's a little frustrating to see the stat bonuses that Tieflings have given such a heavy degree of weight while classifying their value for each class. Any class that doesn't match up well, with a few exceptions, is slammed way down into the red. In my mind, that doesn't hold with the broad range of high-quality racial bonuses Tieflings get aside from the Int/Cha boost.

Just as a single example:

You were relatively fair to Tieflings in their ability to be Fighters, but I don't think that their current rating really reflects the high-quality support they've received. Starting at Hellfire Blood/Flaming Weapon to make up for the lower Strength, continuing on to the golden Lingering Wrath feat and with a very solid racial paragon path in the wings, I think there are several strong Tiefling Fighter builds out there. I don't think that Tiefling Warfiend is weighted so heavily by Constitution that it restricts the builds using it, either. (In fact, I'm not sold on the idea of the Battlerager Tiefling much at all. With lower proficiency weapons and no class bonus to hit you're playing into the weaknesses of the race.)

Tieflings have some solid mitigating factors that would make it hard to class them as red for almost any class in my opinion:

* Bloodhunt - +1 to hit bloodied enemies is just good for anybody. It can give a Tiefling Leaders attractive targets to trigger party bonuses off of and makes targeting easy for any Tiefling Strikers. Controllers (and to a lesser degree Defenders) should perhaps not be getting distracted by the smell of blood, but it's still good for them too.
* Fire Resistance - While perhaps not so important for classes that don't get hit that often, this trait is highly attractive to those that are going to be pounded on regularly...most especially Defenders. A party with a Tiefling Fighter that encounters a fire-based enemy can probably just press their "I Win" button and move on.
* Infernal Wrath - This one is more difficult to quantify. There are several feats that make it stronger, but if the class features a Tiefling is pursuing don't include Charisma investment, Infernal Wrath might not be a big deal even when it goes off. One could also argue about how many feats a Tiefling should be investing in a trick that might not be very strong for them. However, some of the feats like Lingering Wrath are so incredible that Infernal Wrath becomes a centerpoint for the build.

I could see a red rating for something like Druids perhaps. Not only are all the stat bonuses wrong, but the racial features are probably more of a distraction for a Controller. That's probably worthy of a red.

A Tiefling Battle Cleric isn't so sunk as all that, however. Bloodhunt, Fire Resistance and Infernal Wrath all work well for a Strength/Charisma Cleric build. It wouldn't be showing up as the centerpiece of threads in CharOp, but I don't think it should have to in order to avoid the red bin.

Edit: I forgot one...I don't think Tiefling Rangers are so bad off as you've rated them either. An Archery Ranger Tiefling (or even Beastmastery/Bow) wouldn't care quite so much about their lack of a Dexterity bonus in an odd sense. Most of a Tiefling bow Ranger's combat rounds would be spent using Twin Strike anyway. The slightly lower Dexterity wouldn't hurt them on the damage end of things while using Twin Strike, and with two shots they will be likely to hit at least once and trigger their Hunter's Quarry in any case. Bloodhunt is money here, as well. Once the target is bloodied, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between a Tiefling Ranger and an Elf Ranger if both are spamming Twin Strike.

Is it a good Ranger build? No. It's far better than red though, I think.
D&D rules were never meant to exist without the presence of a DM. RAW is a lie.
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 11, 2009 - 9:41PM #35
Lord_Ventnor
  • Heroic Dungeon Master
Date Joined: Jul 9, 2008
Posts: 5,399
Updated to include Psionic classes.
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4 years ago  ::  Aug 10, 2009 - 2:29PM #36
Kainor
Date Joined: Aug 10, 2009
Posts: 2
I am pretty new to DnD. We are gonna be playing 4thed, and I'm wondering if anyone could help me in building a Tiefling Warlock. Thank you.
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4 years ago  ::  Aug 11, 2009 - 8:52AM #37
Rils
Date Joined: Sep 3, 2008
Posts: 563
Welcome to the game! I hope you enjoy it.

I play a Tiefling Star-Pact Warlock (Starlock), and I love it. She's a really fun character to play, and getting better as she gains levels and new powers. You'll find a lot of people don't like warlocks because they don't do as much damage as other strikers, but the key is to note that warlocks have controlling abilities like the ability to grant Combat Advantage (which your whole party, especially the Rogue, will love), inflict conditions (things like Dazed are always useful to drop on a big bad guy), forced movement (throwing baddies into your wizard's Zones is always fun), penalties to attacks, etc. While you might not do quite as much damage, you will certainly help your buddies live longer and do their jobs better.

As mentioned in the OP, Tieflings make better Feylocks, Starlocks, and Darklocks. While it seems counter-intuitive, playing an Infernal warlock isn't quite as good since they don't have the Con boost. Certainly doable, though; just boost your Con all the way and dump some Cha to make up for it. I would suggest either going Fey (which is more of a controller; low damage, but high on messing with your enemies) or Star (Stick to Cha powers, pump Int, make Con third, and just boost your Cha and Int. Your Dire Radiance spell will suffer a bit, but you can just Eldritch Blast everything). The Dark pact has good damage, but the pact boon is a little wonky, and many of the powers require doing damage to your allies as well, which doesn't usually go over well.

I would suggest taking the Hellfire Blood and Sacrifice to Caiphon feats as early as possible, followed by Implement Expertise. Hellfire Blood is one of the very few feats that gives a permanent Attack bonus (for Fear and Fire powers, which abound in the warlock's arsenal). This feat also makes the Infernal pact viable, since it will boost basically all your powers, making up for the lack in Con. Sacrifice to Caiphon is also really handy, especially at low levels. If you miss with your level 1 or 3 encounter power, it's totally worth taking a point or 3 of damage to try again with it. Beyond that, anything that makes you more accurate (bonus to your attack) is often going to be more helpful than a bonus to your damage. While a +1 or +2 to damage sounds nice, it doesn't do any good if you can't hit them in the first place!

I would read through the couple of "warlock handbooks" that are in this Optimization forum. Two that I find particularly useful are Selling Thy Soul and Power of the Dark Side. They do a decent job of reviewing/rating powers and feats and stuff. Of course, it's slightly subjective, and you'll find that depending on your group, some things might work better than others. But it's a great starting point.

Have fun! Be sure to post if you have any specific questions. If you let us know what Pact you like, we can give more specific advice.
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4 years ago  ::  Aug 11, 2009 - 5:18PM #38
Kainor
Date Joined: Aug 10, 2009
Posts: 2
Thank you so much for the advice and the prompt reply. I will definitely check out the other threads as well. Oh, by the way, my DM is not happy....lol
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 01, 2010 - 4:20PM #39
Roughmystics
Date Joined: Nov 30, 2009
Posts: 93
Any plans for an update to this guide since the Winning Races:Tieflings article from last month?  Seems like a lot of options might have opened up and I'm kinda having trouble getting my brain around them.
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 03, 2010 - 5:55AM #40
Whyareall
Date Joined: Jun 1, 2009
Posts: 15
I have found that article is made of pure awesome. Wrath of the Crimson Legion allows paladins to use CHA for melee basic attacks, as well as replacing infernal wrath with a 1/encounter divine sanction on every enemy in a burst 5. If you sanction 5 enemies, then leg it with a double move (and possibly an AP to make sure noone can get you), you can do a total of 15+5xCHA mod damage in a single round (that's up to 40 damage at 1st level).
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