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This is an attempt to build a solid, multiple-attacking chaos sorcerer. Sorcerer do tons of damage with only a few key feats, but they're fragile. Particularly since they seem to like getting up close and personal. The feats for both variants are extremely tight, so only the methods that worked best in testing have survived in these builds.

The chaos sorcerer stays back initially, and then steps forward when it's safe. At range or close up, he/she gets great mileage out of chaos bolt and its tendency to jump around. Wild spellfury triggers each time it jumps. His at-wills are very powerful due to feat support, so they are used primarily. Dailies and encounters are more situational, or used for debuffs/disruption.

Chaos Sorcerer Daggermaster Show


Some have suggested that I switch from rogue to ranger to drop daggermaster and gain Spitting Cobra Stance. Both are so good that it was a tempting swap. But now with hybrid builds, you can have both.

Sorcerous Blade Channeling/Wild Spellfury/White Lotus x2
are replaced by
Hybrid Talent/Echoes of Thunder/Resounding Thunder/Fury of the Storm

At-wills are not as powerful, as we've lost the all-round goodness of Chaos Bolt. This means that we've dumped the White Lotus feats as well. Why the switch? Because Fury of the Storm belongs on a bloodiron-wielding daggermaster. We're keeping Ruthless Spellfury for now, as Acid Orb will be triggered by our stance. SBC and Wild Spellfury were always going anyway, as we're just not that interested in being in melee any more. It should be hard to close with this sorcerer. He shifts and teleports. And zaps you if you approach.

Storm Sorcerer Daggermaster with Ranger Show


I may have lost control. Here is a hybrid version of the original halfling sorcerer daggermaster, allowing a deeper blend of the sorcerer and rogue classes. This time with Storm Soul rather than Wild Soul, but this is a simple power swap for sorcs. The occasional rogue power is extremely good, actually. I think I prefer this to the ranger version, despite the greatness of Spitting Cobra Stance.

I think I also prefer this to the non-hybrid version that came first. Swapping back to chaos magic is as straightforward as swapping those power choices for these.

Wild Soul gets: White Lotus Riposte, White Lotus Master Riposte, Wild Spellfury // Chaos Bolt, and more psychic attacks
Storm Soul gets: Resounding Thunder, Echoes of Thunder, Fury of the Storm // More thunder attacks
In other words, "your ghost may walk, you lover of trees, down an English lane, if you know what I mean."

You could also chose the White Lotus pair instead of TWF and TWD.

Storm Sorcerer Daggermaster Show


...or, without any hybrid rules at all, we have:

Storm Sorcerer Daggermaster Show




The archetypical dragon sorcerer is clearly a dragonborn. The archetypical PP is Dragonsoul Heir, although I came within a whisker of choosing Kensei or Dragon Guardian instead. This build, like the Chaos sorcerer build, is built to be much tougher than the average striker, and to mix it up in and around the front lines.

And this character is really tough. Huge defense boosts and temp HP everywhere in paragon. He/she has a lot of close burst/blast powers, so getting in close to the action is quite important. Pushing adds a handy damage boost. Would like to get room for lasting frost into the build, but feats are very tight.

Good variant: Take MC Ranger instead of Fighter, and take the level 5 daily Spitting Cobra Stance with the MC feat that replaces Draconic Arrogance. This reduces your damage for most strikes by 5-18 per hit, but in certain moderately common circumstances, gives you many more attacks per round. If taking this option, watch that you can pick your battles to use the stance, and get Salves of Power to get more attempts per day. Also consider rings of ramming to really keep yourself clear. This tactic might be used to keep enemies off a fragile party member if you don't need protecting yourself, but make sure you place yourself so that it triggers often.

Dragon Sorcerer Dragonsoul Heir Show

Impressive work. These are very solid builds.

Boring but good. Archetypes indeed. Probably another thing I'll link in my guide if it's okay with you.

Wonderful builds, good summary.

One thing I would change: In the Chaos Sorc build... kick Dragonfrost and take Acid Orb; it's vs. Reflex and does more damage... and I cannot see any important use of Dragonfrost.

Edit: I would also take Lost in Crowd. For this concept it's a very good feat.

Very solid archetypes.
The halfling has hide spec at level 20, but doesn't (any won't ever) qualify with a starting CON of 12. You need 15 CON for hide spec.

I'm a bit surprised that Arcane Reach never made it into either build, given the number of close blast powers available.

Sven_Stryker wrote:

Boring but good. Archetypes indeed. Probably another thing I'll link in my guide if it's okay with you.

The point of the "archetype series" is to take the most obvious choices, but then tweak it up. Link away, of course.

Pandexander wrote:

Wonderful builds, good summary.

One thing I would change: In the Chaos Sorc build... kick Dragonfrost and take Acid Orb; it's vs. Reflex and does more damage... and I cannot see any important use of Dragonfrost.

Edit: I would also take Lost in Crowd. For this concept it's a very good feat.

Good call on the acid orb. I think I had hopes for a Lasting Frost at one stage, but Chaos Orb should be holding the focus for pretty much the entire career. It gives the (multi-target) equivalent of the twin strike/daggermaster combo.

I had some hopes for Lost in the Crowd in the original plan, but I had such a feat squeeze. I think I can see it coming back in now, though.

Scaphism wrote:

Very solid archetypes.
The halfling has hide spec at level 20, but doesn't (any won't ever) qualify with a starting CON of 12. You need 15 CON for hide spec.

I'm a bit surprised that Arcane Reach never made it into either build, given the number of close blast powers available.

Thank you for that catch. I think I'll drop down to leather and save the two feats. The (situational) lost AC can come from Lost in the Crowd, which makes sense when playing him as a multi-meleer. Arcane Reach was in the original plan, like Lost in the Crowd, but the bulk of the close powers are actually on the dragon sorc build (who doesn't qualify). I think it would be overkill here.

I'll take Light Blade Precision for now, which will probably be switched out in the future when I get some good options from Arcane Power.

So I could replace my shield with a mage's weapon parrying dagger, and have +1 AC earlier. Then take TWF and TWD and get shield spec level defenses earlier with a bonus +1 damage.

Then, Two-Weapon Opening might be worthwhile. I'd like to hope that a (melee-replacing-ranged) ranged basic attack is a melee basic attack. If so, I could replace Light Blade Precision to get a good melee damage improvement in paragon.

Thoughts?

anomalousman wrote:

I'd like to hope that a (melee-replacing-ranged) ranged basic attack is a melee basic attack.

Keep on hoping, because it doesn't work that way. You have to take Reaper's Touch if you want it to, and then only for Acid Orb and Dragonfrost.

AlienFromBeyond wrote:

Keep on hoping, because it doesn't work that way. You have to take Reaper's Touch if you want it to, and then only for Acid Orb and Dragonfrost.

Technically, Acid Orb and Dragonfrost with Sorcerous Blade Channeling would be Melee Attacks that count as Ranged Basic Attacks(according to their special line, which isn't changed with their range and type). Doesn't really mean much though. Like he said, I think Reaper's Touch makes them melee basic.

Yeah, that's why I haven't changed the build already. This way it's up a reflex defense, and I'd have to take three more offensive feats to get anything nontrivial out of having two weapons.

It's becoming clearer and clearer that the DPR of these builds is fine, and that they'll be limited - particularly in lower levels - by their fragility. I've swapped some feats around, and employed some early mage's parrying daggers to focus on defenses. This will make the early part of the build more playable. You'll still have to act like a scared ranged attacker for the first half of heroic at least.

Changes:
1. Swapped defensive feats earlier - even at the cost of implement expertise.
2. Noted the +1 mage's parrying dagger in the equipment. It comes as first desired magic item. For Chaos sorc, it is kept until the shield feats arrive mid paragon.
3. I'm keeping burning spray for the Chaos sorc until he can switch to chaos bolt in melee.

I should point out more subtle defenses that replaced the hide armour: I added Psychic Lock and Lost in the Crowd, which are not included in the stats, but should come up quite often in play. The main at-will, and many of the dailies/encounter powers all target will. In those circumstances, Psychic Lock is like a regular +2 to defenses for multiple party members.

I've seen Lost in the Crowd in play - and its best feature is that it's on when times are toughest.

Question: I now have a 12 Str for the chaos sorc, and nothing to do with it. I'm not keen on going 20/16 for Cha/Dex for several reasons, but does anyone have any other constructive ideas?

Look like good builds. Not all that important, but you have the level one chaos sorcerer with leather armor proficiency as a feat, but no leather armor. That means AC should be 16 instead of 14, and also I think the fortitude and reflex defenses are switched.

Thanks. I put the leather earlier after consideration, but failed to adjust the numbers. Personally, I'm going to roleplay this guy as starting as a cowardly thief. But getting some defenses early would be the key optimisation goal.

This is the exact kind of build I was looking for. Just wondering, is the build itself (at the top) updated with the additions/changes mentioned in your posts? Also, what do you think of Sly Dodge as opposed to Sneak of Shadows?

Yes, I keep my archetype builds updated.

Sly dodge seems to make a lot of sense for a Cha-heavy ranged type, so it's a fine option. I didn't choose it for a couple of reasons. The main one is that this build likes to be in melee, and can use any of its spells without provoking. So I basically wasn't planning on provoking any OAs. It might be handy to move around in order to pick a better target, but I decided the occasional burst of damage would be more useful.

Plus, I wanted thievery instead of bluff and intimidate, which I could already get as a sorcerer.

Also, I don't see the proficiency feat for the parrying dagger in the build. Am I missing something? I would much rather go with the dagger/TWF feats than with the shield feats.

Edit: I found the "Mage's Weapon" enhancement, so disregard my feat comment. But, I still would like to use two daggers instead of a shield. Any downsides/advantages to that? You said it would be the equivalent of using the shield but with an added +1 damage, so I'm just wondering why it's not part of the build.

It's a mage's parrying dagger - it comes with built-in proficiency.

TWF + TWD could replace the shield profs, for a net cost of 1 reflex, 1 magic weapon that you never attack with, 1 magic shield benefit. You gain 1 damage to your attacks.

If you want two interesting weapon powers, that will cost another feat (the weapon proficiency). If you want that so you can use TWO with a sorcerer power, then that will cost two more feats: TWO and Reaper's Touch.

So you can go that way, but you'll need to ditch three feats from this build, and your defenses will still be marginally lower even if you don't ditch defensive feats.

This is awesome post, thank you!!!

I ended up with all the same assumptions at level 1 with my Halfling Chaos/insane build (except i MC Rogue level 1 for thematic reasons), I'm glad I'm on the right track.

Thank you again!

p.s. these guys are WONDERFUL to role play with, playing up the insanity is great fun, and you never know what is going to happen in a battle. It is TREMENDOUS fun for both me and the entire group. We were in stitches!

P.S thank you to WOTC for this class!

pianopraze wrote:

I ended up with all the same assumptions at level 1 with my Halfling Chaos/insane build (except i MC Rogue level 1 for thematic reasons), I'm glad I'm on the right track.

Me too. But I posted the more 'optimal' starting point. My guy begins as a thief with a bit of a surprise...

I like the concept of dragonborn sorcerers. I looked at it differently then the one listed. I created a lightning and thunder specialised taking all the feats that boosted those two attacks. The only defense I took was endurance as a skill, and leather armour. I took dragon soul heir as paragon class naturally, and the doombringer as the epic class. I like the flavour and concept of twin attacks.

Element theme dragonborn sorcerers are clearly viable. I would argue that weapon focus is still the best way to get the feat bonus to damage, though. It's the most widely applicable.

Arcane Power exerpt thoughts:

TWF is now the plan. It was on the edge before, but that dual implement feat makes it critical. It will be close to the feat that increases damage the most.

The real question is: what to take out? What are the 3-5 worst feats in the build? You know the build is getting right when you have great ideas that you have to leave out...

First off.. being partial to Halflings, I really like the first build..the only thing initially I see - is that you took a +1 mage's parrying dagger but you don't have proficiency in it. I know this because I'm going to run a character I ran in the past a rapier/parrying dagger halfling and I had to take a weapon proficiency in it as it's a superior weapon..hope this helps..

If you have a way around this - please let me know - haha..that would and an extra feat to Porthos Two-Blades..

hahaha.. Never mind, how did I miss the property of this weapons..though it wouldn't work for Porthos..it explains your path..

sorry about that..and again..good builds!!

That was the easiest question I've had in weeks.

And that off-hand dagger is going to get increasingly important, unless we've all mis-guessed what that new feat is about.

OK, so I'm trying to cut the least important feats for the new big damage boosters. The real problem is that I've already got rid of the weaker offensive feats, and now I'm having to cull defensive feats.

So what is the weakest of:
Toughness: ...~10% of my hitpoints

Lost in the Crowd? ...take ~20% less hits when meleeing 2 opponents

Psychic Lock ...take ~20% less hits when I connect with my main attacks

I just played a bunch of battles using these two characters in a party:

Githyanki swordmage
Dragonborn Inspiring Warlord
Dragonborn Bruiser Barbarian
Dragonborn Dragon Sorcerer
Halfling Chaos Sorcerer

The team wiped the floor punching well above their weight. In general, the battles were nearly overwhelming, and then the group managed to pull together enough to pull off a game-winning nova.

The bad news is that these two guys were pretty incidental. The Swordmage was important for keeping the heat off the warlord and barbarian. The Warlord was the only source of buffs and healing, and vital to the whole process. The Barbarian did the bulk of the heavy damage, both before and during the nova. (There was no 'after'.)

Now, this wasn't a fair test. I was using a couple of solo monsters rather than a normal pattern of opponents, so the whole role of these guys was removed. They're for softening up large groups of enemies, not punching through a BBEG with an aura.

Dragon Sorc: Through draconic spellfury and Platinum Scales (mainly PS), he was surprisingly tough. Usually the least hurt at the end. Downside, that's also because he was the smallest threat. None of his close burst powers were ever really useful, however. In more normal fights, he would have been a lot better. He hit about as often and as hard as the others, but just didn't have single target nova capacity.

Chaos sorc: Again, his big trick of being in the middle of lots of small troops and chewing them to pieces just didn't have a chance to be tested. Also, he was quite fragile to big auras, which were in abundance in these tests. He did have some uses, however: Psychic Lock occasionally saved the key members. Also, his randomly chosen debuffs were occasionally vital. The prismatic powers do their business with or without a hit, and set up the break needed to nova on two occasions.

On that basis, for BBEG solo opponents, these two would be better replaced by a second leader (I'd lose the dragon first), and maybe a dedicated controller instead of the Chaos Sorc, since that was his effective role. I'll try big mixes of opponents later and see how the team goes. Then I'd expect the multi-attack nature of these two to more than double their damage output, and make them take a lot of more of the enemy's attention.

Also: tweaks have been made, although I don't have Arcane Power yet. I expect that to affect a couple of feats and several powers.

Latest late epic playtest results: Played against multiple epic solos simultaneously, Vecna, Tiamat and the level 30 Dungeon Delve.

Chaos Sorc: I think this build seemed strong, but it wasn't quite as effective as the warlord/barbarian combination. That said, he did put out a lot of damage. And the secondary control effects, despite their randomness, came in very handy every now and again. He has little nova capacity, but puts out a better steady stream of damage than the barbarian. He's also increasingly effective against multiple opponents, and it was very clear that when there were more opponents he did better and better. So bring on the minions.

He's considerably more fragile than some, but he fared well when becoming adjacent to opponents every now and again. I played him at range early in the fight, and then brought him in when things became more stabilised. It worked well, and I suspect that's how it should be done.

Sorcerous Flux didn't come up very often, but possibly not rarely enough to replace the feat. White Lotus Master Riposte worked well on several occasions. After working hard to get Reaper's Touch and Two-Weapon Opening into the build, I never managed the combination. The requirement to attack in melee the same opponent that you critted is a constraint that doesn't play well for the chaos sorc. That, and a desperate need to get Double Implement Spellcaster into the build, means that I've replaced those two with DIS and the return of Toughness. I'm now thinking this build is getting near its final optimal valley. That said, I still don't have Arcane Power, so there might be something vital outside the excerpts. In particular, there's plenty of room for improvement amongst the powers. He's often using at wills rather than exhausting his encounter powers.

Dragon Sorc: I think this build seemed strong, but I'd have to say that this was the least effective of the five characters. He has little nova capacity, and doesn't have quite the damage output of the chaos sorcerer. The playtests happened to include solos and brutes mainly, however, and this character would be ideal against skirmishers and minions. So no dramatic conclusions should be taken. Looking over the build, there's nothing significant that I'd change. Sorcerous Flux didn't come up very often, but possibly not rarely enough to replace the feat.

One notable feature was that he was never in danger. His toughness was never really challenged, so I'd like to see how he goes in early paragon - where the lack of nova features won't be so important.

Early paragon playtest results: Party was level 11, same as before. Played against a level 11, 12, 13 series of encounters in the same day. And a level 13, 14 and 15 series on another day. Then a level 17 encounter and a level 18 encounter where the party was assumed to be fresh. All successes. At level 19, the free ride stopped - they just couldn't hit the opponents any more. Proper workdays at the level 17 and 18 mark would have had serious consequences as well.

Chaos Sorc: This guy was easily MVP in first encounter and close in second. Both sorcerers worked absolutely perfectly. Wild Spellfury and the melee attack gear didn't come up much until things went badly, and were then very useful. At the higher levels, maneuverability and sheer inability to hit slowed him down a lot, but not more than the others. The chaos bolt is always a good option at any range. I'd say the build was working extremely well.

Dragonborn Sorc: This guy was MVP in second encounter and close in first. Both sorcerers worked absolutely perfectly. Draconic Arrogance was a very handy damage boost. At the higher levels, maneuverability and sheer inability to hit slowed him down a lot, but not more than the others. This sorc has a lot of close burst and blast powers, which are hard to set up even if you're happy to be in melee. Which he was - his toughness was unchallenged. The build was working very well.

What about Dragon Guardian from Arcane Power? Wouldn't it be better than Dragnsoul Heir?

Quite possibly. I never really used anything about Dragonsoul Heir. I should be getting hold of arcane power literally in three hours. I'm reworking all my current builds again. Plus the warlock that I'm playing in tabletop, although that's less of an optimisation question than a "how shall I arrange these elements into something that works" question.

How is it you're taking White Lotus Master Riposte feat without taking the White Lotus Riposte feat that appears to be a prerequisite. If there is some kinda trick you are using, I'd like to know about it.

Thanks

Trick = mistake. I've already shoehorned the prereq feat in my offline builds, but I'm going through AP anyway, so I'll do the update in one big hit.

As an aside, feats have become pure gold. I've had to shorten my list of 'indispensible' feats many times. The WL Riposte pair are still in it, though.

OK, these builds are finally updated for Arcane Power. There have been some strategic power changes in both builds.

Chaos Sorcerer:
Ruthless Spellfury has to fit in the chaos sorc build (everything the TWO combo was supposed to be, in a single feat.)
So does quickened spellcasting, but this left me a horrible dilemma. The weakest attacking feats remaining were Wild Spellfury and Weapon Focus. But they're excellent. So I looked at the two weakest defensive feats: Psychic Lock and Lost in the Crowd. In the end I chose to delete them. But I'm sad about it. Another option would be to remove TWF and TWD instead, but I really like the constant bonus of the TWD.

Dragon Sorcerer:
Now, the dragonborn build had more to do. First, there was the option of a better paragon path. It then had to choose whether to disturb the stat distribution to get Sorcerer Implement Expertise or not. This is essentially a feat a drop in Con to get 15 Dex, for the choice to pick a non-jagged weapon. Finally, there was the question about what to drop for Ruthless Spellfury and Quickened Spellcasting. For the last question, I went for Sorcerous Flux and Toughness. Sorcerous Flux was my least used feat, and Toughness might be useful earlier on, but by mid-epic, this build relies on stupidly boosted defenses and temp HP to get through fights. It was never stressed in playtests.

Paragon path choice is really quite a line call. I like Dragon Guardian, but Dragonsoul Heir is clearly tougher. Dragon guardian puts marks on surrounding enemies, and I want my defender doing that, ideally. But I like its utility and I like getting a double resistance from my Dragon Soul. In the end I left it, but I think the absolute ideal paragon path is still waiting to be discovered.

Sorcerer Implement Expertise comes at a cost of a feat, which hurts even more than the loss of HP and a surge. So we have to make that call after looking at possible weapon enchantments. I've looked around, and not seen anything good enough to turn my head. I'll happily take pitches for this swap - but the payoff needs to be pretty serious. My best thought thus far: radiant weapon?



For both builds: Arcane Familiar might be worthwhile - but at what cost?

Draconic spellcaster perhaps for the dragonborn build?

prereqs, are any arcane class & dragonborn, heroic tier.
Gives a feat bonus to attack to arcane powers that share the type of the dragonborn's breath weapon. +1 feat attackbonus, (+2 at 15, +2 at 25)

Yes, draconic spellcaster is very good. I was trying to avoid limiting myself to particular elements, but it is really so good that it should be considered anyway. That would tend to suggest Lasting Frost as well. And the thunder feats, along with arcane admixture. However, the question is what should one or more of these replace?

I could take Draconic Spellcaster by itself, as it's the best of them, and only a single feat. But what to remove? The defensive feats are pretty vital. I could boost the build into a super glass cannon that would attract immense enemy fire, but there are plenty of "DPR uber alles" builds out there already. Since my playtest, where this build was the last standing at late levels (largely through not being targeted), I've lowered defenses and raised the damage output. I don't want to tip the balance and risk becoming the first to be dropped.

Playtests from levels 11 and 21 are in.

Raw Notes from playtests Show

So only the chaos sorc was tested, but he came out well. He didn't miss the TWO option, and in fact, he barely used wild spellfury. I'm almost wondering whether it should be demoted in the feat priority. The thing that makes me hestitate is that it's the feat that gets more important as the circumstances get worse.

White Lotus Riposte was an excellent tool for warning opponents off. Although usually it 'warned' them rather actively, and that was good, too.

His damage and dodginess were fine. Even at epic, he was as good a striker as the barbarian, and more capable in certain situations.

OK, so someone pointed out in another thread that mage's parrying daggers aren't a valid implement. (Proficient != implement)

So I need a replacement. I'm looking for a staff (1 handed? really?) or dagger with a property that does something useful even when you're not attacking with it. The short list is:

Bloodthirsty +1/+E vs bloodied
Lucklender +2(+1s+received crits) attack/day
Prime shot +T damage point blank
Subtle +E with CA

Defensive Staff +1 NADs


I don't think the Staff of Ruin will operate if you're attacking with a different implement. The second sentence doesn't say anything about having to attack, but the first muddies the waters. Any suggestions?

Goblin Totem Dagger! (adds bonus against larger foes) Nice if your a Halfling :D

Two problems with the goblin totem dagger:

1) It only applies to attacks with the dagger, so it would stop the bloodiron goodness.

2) Staff of ruin is outright better than it.

I understand how good Draconic Arrogance is on a dragon sorc, but may I recommend going MC Ranger instead? You can use salves of power to restore spitting cobra stance, and with two rings of ramming you get:

-push 3 against anyone who approaches you with dragonfrost. This makes it very difficult for anyone to get near you.

-Temp Hp whenever anyone moves near you, since Spitting Cobra Stance allows the use of dragonfrost. As such, anyone who manages to get near you also effectively does STR mod less damage. This is even better than the battlerager's ability.

-Obscene damage. You get an extra attack against almost every enemy. You get to apply your sorcerer damage as well as lasting frost/wintertouched as many times as you attack, which will be quite a lot with the stance.

-Easy activation of the white lotus feats every round, should you choose to include them.


IMO, this is perfect for a defensively minded dragonsorc, and it does very nice damage as well. I would trade it for MC Fighter/Draconic Arrogance in a heartbeat (it's even the same feat expenditure). Please consider this option.

Ytterbium: It's a great build option, and I've considered it a couple of times. I think it would really shine as a better option in many cases. In others, where the stance is either unavailable or not triggered, it would obviously be weaker.

When I playtested the sorcerer, he was already ignored in terms of meleers trying to close. His real defense was to push his AC and NADs sky high. The main reason he was hurt was through the omnipresent auras. That said, at epic he really didn't get the damage out like the other strikers, I think largely because he was targeting Fort and kept missing. At paragon the damage output was not an issue, but he was also the lowest priority target in most fights.

I therefore suspect that the best use of MC Ranger-Spitting Cobra would not be to help with his defenses, but to effectively make himself a defender once (or twice) per day. He could stand next to the glass cannon and try to keep them clear. When the main opponents did their damage via melee rather than ranged/aura, that might work reasonably well. As in, be utterly cool.

That said, there are many multi-push/prone powers for draogn sorcs, so Draconic Arrogance is nearly always being used. I like that it works when you don't have access to the daily (Salves of Power are a good fix, but equipment fixes make me generally uncomfortable). I like that DA works when you're dazed. Now this, I expect to come up a lot. My whole party seems to spend a lot of its life dazed. I like that it works against ranged attackers, and meleers that stand still, pounding away at your warlord/barbarian/swordmage.

I'll flag your variant in the main post, but I'll leave the base build as it is. I think the spitting cobra stance option is definitely for very tactically aware players.

Is Bedeviling Burst really any good for a Dragon Sorcerer?

Well, it worked well in my level 11 playtests. It can be used to target 2 enemies, attacks will, and pushes (and hence triggers Draconic Arrogance for extra damage).

Thunder slam attacks fortitude (slightly worse, but not a deal breaker), and attacks one less enemy. That's more of the problem.

Mists of Disarray competes if you can get three enemies in the burst. But Bedevilling worked out fine. Of course, it's the first encounter to be replaced.

anomalousman wrote:

Ytterbium: It's a great build option, and I've considered it a couple of times. I think it would really shine as a better option in many cases. In others, where the stance is either unavailable or not triggered, it would obviously be weaker.

When I playtested the sorcerer, he was already ignored in terms of meleers trying to close. His real defense was to push his AC and NADs sky high. The main reason he was hurt was through the omnipresent auras. That said, at epic he really didn't get the damage out like the other strikers, I think largely because he was targeting Fort and kept missing. At paragon the damage output was not an issue, but he was also the lowest priority target in most fights.

I therefore suspect that the best use of MC Ranger-Spitting Cobra would not be to help with his defenses, but to effectively make himself a defender once (or twice) per day. He could stand next to the glass cannon and try to keep them clear. When the main opponents did their damage via melee rather than ranged/aura, that might work reasonably well. As in, be utterly cool.

That said, there are many multi-push/prone powers for draogn sorcs, so Draconic Arrogance is nearly always being used. I like that it works when you don't have access to the daily (Salves of Power are a good fix, but equipment fixes make me generally uncomfortable). I like that DA works when you're dazed. Now this, I expect to come up a lot. My whole party seems to spend a lot of its life dazed. I like that it works against ranged attackers, and meleers that stand still, pounding away at your warlord/barbarian/swordmage.

I'll flag your variant in the main post, but I'll leave the base build as it is. I think the spitting cobra stance option is definitely for very tactically aware players.

That's certainly a fair evaluation. You only get spitting cobra stance twice per day in heroic (and only for one level), three in paragon, and four in epic. That means most of your encounters don't have it activated. I think I undervalued Draconic Arrogance as well.

OK, I see. Its not very good at level 1, but I can follow your argument that its good at 11.

anomalousman wrote:

Well, it worked well in my level 11 playtests. It can be used to target 2 enemies, attacks will, and pushes (and hence triggers Draconic Arrogance for extra damage).

Thunder slam attacks fortitude (slightly worse, but not a deal breaker), and attacks one less enemy. That's more of the problem.

Mists of Disarray competes if you can get three enemies in the burst. But Bedevilling worked out fine. Of course, it's the first encounter to be replaced.

nm, misread.

Joolsy wrote:

OK, I see. Its not very good at level 1, but I can follow your argument that its good at 11.

It's OK. I don't think any of the level 1 encounters are that compelling. I do like having something in the arsenal that targets Will.

good morning Anomalousman,
i've a question about the dragonborn build:
you choose the feat "dual implement spellcaster" to add the off-hand implement bonus to damage roll; but the off-hand implement you use "mage's parrying dagger" it's not a dagger, and so in my opinion you won't be able to use it as an implement - and then it doesn't work with the feat.
The mage's parrying dagger itself explain that anyone is proficency with that as weapon, but not that anyone can use it as an implement.



(sorry for my bad english)

Morning. You're totally right. I changed this for the chaos mage, and forgot to do the same for the dragon mage. I've now changed it over to a staff of ruin at higher levels. This means that the AC is 1 lower at levels 21 and 30. But there's quite a serious damage boost, so that's good.

thank you for the quickly reply.

Playtest says: all is well at high levels.

New hybrid rules say:

Sorc | rogue + feat: hybrid talent

gives all sorts of benefits over

Sorc + feat: Sneak of Shadows

...while still giving all (literally) the class features of the sorcerer. The benefits are:
+1 Will, more choice on skills, more weapon profs, sneak attack all encounter, three effective free power swap feats, freedom to take another multiclass

The drawbacks are: -1 Ref, sneak attack only on daggermaster/rogue powers, mandatory power replacement for 1 util, 1 encounter and 1 daily.

Now the defenses are a wash. The sneak attack is a solid improvement. There are plenty of fabulous rogue powers, so the fact that the power swaps are free is the important thing there. The multiclass thing is good, too. I can take a splash of bard to boost the group healing.

Wouldn't the hybrid build want to take both daggermaster + draconic arrogance or daggermaster + spitting cobra stance? It seems really strong to me.

I was off base with the "all features" thing. But it's still strong. Daggermaster + draconic arrogance has a couple of minor problems:
1) Boosting strength over dex leaves you with a useless at-will from the rogue, and a useless rogue encounter and rogue daily power. Not boosting strength makes it a wasted feat.
2) The at-will of choice for a draconic arrogance user doesn't target multiple enemies, so you'd lose some of the daggermaster synergy, or some of the draconic arrogance synergy.

I can't see any reason not to go for spitting cobra stance with a sorc | ranger (rogue) daggermaster. The stats work, and I'm sure there's at least one useful ranger encounter and utility power somewhere (that you'll have to take).

anomalousman wrote:

I'm sure there's at least one useful ranger encounter and utility power somewhere (that you'll have to take).

Fox's Cunning gives you a MBA at a reaction, which means you can use dragonfrost if you have reaper's touch.

You know, that's just such an obviously good combo, I'll have to work up the build. People have suggested I change the previous build for Spitting Cobra, and I've always thought that would have been fine. Now, the advantages of both builds can be combined. For variety, I think it should be a storm sorc, as that's a bit more in line with a nature ranger kinda feel. Oh, and Fury of the Storm + daggermaster.

I tried to throw mc ranger into my Sorc|Fighter build, but it's incredibly feat starved. It's really hard to negotiate feats between the three classes, imo. Just a heads up.

I had something like 27 feats that seemed must-have, and the only way I saw to cut down was to drop mc ranger entirely.

Yeah, the sorc is feat starved by itself. I doubt I'll try for any ranger-specific feats.

...and maybe you would have been better throwing MC Fighter into a Sorc|Ranger build. Then you could save on a power-swap feat. But still, it would have been crazy.

anomalousman wrote:

I was off base with the "all features" thing. But it's still strong. Daggermaster + draconic arrogance has a couple of minor problems:
1) Boosting strength over dex leaves you with a useless at-will from the rogue, and a useless rogue encounter and rogue daily power. Not boosting strength makes it a wasted feat.

I was thinking going sorcerer|fighter/rogue, so that rogue is only for the daggermaster. But yeah, that might be better as something other than a dragon sorcerer.

anomalousman wrote:

...and maybe you would have been better throwing MC Fighter into a Sorc|Ranger build. Then you could save on a power-swap feat. But still, it would have been crazy.

There are a lot more fighter powers worth taking IMO, and I like the ability to mark. I could see an argument like that working if it didn't change the function of the character, but doing that would change his role entirely.

Sure. My storm sorc | ranger / rogue is very much a sorcerer, so he's not getting spread as thin. ( And he's also very clearly a striker, if that weren't abundantly clear. )

Feat starvation just means that the new options have to fight very hard indeed to have any effect on the damage output, without losing to the straight build sometimes. These builds really are nearly saturated optimisation wise - the sweet smell of balance.

Sorry, I'm mainly talking about some kind of str sorc|fighter or str sorc/fighter. I may not have been clear on that issue.

IMO, using ranger as the second hybrid class only gives you a small boost in the striker category, while using fighter as the secondary class still adds quite a bit to the striker category (maybe more - tempest fighter is so good on sorcs) as well as allowing the sorc to be a fully competent defender. I think that's just too much benefit to pass up, even for spitting cobra stance which you know I love.

Strength-based sorcs and tempest indeed look great. However, taking tempest fighter would need to use Hybrid Talent, which shuts down any and all build-specific feats and riders. Unless you do PMC. All that's stopping me from going there is my unreasonably long honeymoon with daggermaster.

... I think I'd go cosmic, by the way. Fighter powers can handle all the close stuff, so I'd want blazing starfall as my at-will. And I like some of the cosmic powers from later levels over dragon riders, which are quite skippable (adamantine echoes aside).

Personally, I'm going nuts. I'm building three separate hybrid sorc builds that all take daggermaster.

OK, two of the hybrid builds are up!

The first is the sorc | ranger / rogue, and the second is just straight sorc | rogue - essentially a reworking of the original chaos sorc build. Now I've seen them, I still prefer the sorc | rogue. It's just a bit more synergistic.

Thanks for the great write up and review.. Playing a Halfling Hybrid Rogue | Storm Sorcerer myself right now.

Question on the Spitting Cobra Stance cheese

Hybrid Ranger | Sorcerer

Could you apply the Sorcerer (DEX) bonus to damage rolls when using the stance? You are using "Acid Orb" for ranged attacks. Hybrid rules allow only bonus damage from Sorcerer powers... and the Stance is a Ranger Power?

Example:
Ranger basic attack w/ bow 1d10 + Dex + Mod
Sorcerer Acid Orb (Basic Ranged) 1d10 + Cha + Dex + Mod

Ridiculous!

Hi,

Pardon if this is a stupid question (it very well might be) but I just can't figure out how you're getting 16 AC for level 1 in the Dragon Sorc build all the way at the bottom of your post.

Dragon Sorcerer, L1

Race: Dragonborn (cold)
Class: Sorcerer
Spell Source: Dragon (cold)

Ability Scores, with racial adjustments:
Str 18 (+4)
Con 12 (+1)
Dex 12 (+1)
Int 10 (+0)
Wis 8 (-1)
Cha 18 (+4)

HP: 24; Bloodied: 12; Surges: 7 (7 HP)
AC/Fort/Ref/Will: 16/14/11/16
Initiative: +1; Speed: 6

Dragonfrost: +4 vs. Fortitude, 1d8+8+push (+1/+0 bloodied)

At-will Powers: Burning Spray, Dragonfrost
Encounter Powers: Dragon Breath, Bedeviling Burst
Daily Powers: Lightning Breath

Skills: Arcana (+5), Endurance (+6), Diplomacy (+9), Intimidate (+11)
Feats: Armour Proficiency (Leather)

Gear: dagger, leather armour, standard adventurer's kit, 84 gp

This build lacks the DEX mod of the halfling build, so why does it get the same AC?

Dragon:
10 + 0 (1/2 level) + 2 (leather armor) + 1 (DEX) = 13
to the halfling's:
10 + 0 (1/2 level) + 2 (leater armor) + 4 (DEX) = 16

Since INT is the only other score you can add to your AC when wearing light armor and there's no shield bonus, I can't figure out where the extra +3 is coming from (and why the halfling doesn't get it).

Let me know if I'm wrong.

Dragon Sorcerers get Str to AC

ff6shadow wrote:

Dragon Sorcerers get Str to AC

Thanks for the clarification. I missed Draconic Resilience. :P

In regard to the Halfling Chaos Sorc/DM:

I don't think the property of the staff of ruin gives you its damage bonus property unless you are wielding it as your implement. The Dual Implement Spellcaster feat doesn't give you any ability to use the properties of both implements beyond the one instance of the offhand's damage bonus. You still have to choose which of the two weapons is your actual implement at any given time and that determines which one gives you its enhancements bonuses. The staff of ruin's damage bonus only applies when you are using its enhancement bonus instead of the daggers.

Conversely if you choose the staff as your implement for an attack, you lose the +3 damage from the weapon focus light blade. You could choose weapon focus staff to get all the +s you are going for but then you would lose all the nifty daggermaster abilities while not using the dagger to make the attacks.

I didn't catch this until I tried to make it all work in character builder and it won't apply the item bonus to damage from the staff while it is being wielded in the offhand. And I think the CB is correct.

You get both properties with or without a feat. That's one of the few advantages of having two implements in the absence of the feat.

Without the feat, you don't obviously get to add the staff of ruin bonus, however, as it kind of suggests that you need to be adding the enhancement bonus to damage already. Actually, I think you probably would, but I see that it's debatable. The dual implement spellcaster feat plugs even that doubt, as you are already adding the enhancement bonus of the staff of ruin.

I've found the CB has made some really odd mistakes in calculating damage with entirely non-controversial calculations. I wouldn't rely on it.

I don't really understand how you calculate the damage of your Dragonfrost at level 11

+14 vs. Fortitude, 1d8+24+push (+1/+0 bloodied) [5 cold damage if attacked]

I get +17 when I use characterbuilder and duplicate your build. Please Explain

That's quoted as a melee attack.

So it's:
1d8 +5 (Cha) +7 (Str+2) +3 dagger + 2 (weapon focus) + 2 (iron armbands) +5 (draconic arrogance) = 1d8+24

Character builder gets my rogue|sorc damages weirdly wrong.

anomalousman wrote:

That's quoted as a melee attack.

So it's:
1d8 +5 (Cha) +7 (Str+2) +3 dagger + 2 (weapon focus) + 2 (iron armbands) +5 (draconic arrogance) = 1d8+24

Character builder gets my rogue|sorc damages weirdly wrong.

I see thank you very much .

Using your Sorc|rogue halfing chaos build... i read that you didn't do things that caused OA on you when in melee.

I'm a little curious as to why. I see a chaos bolt hitting some targets (and possible adding the sneak damage if you have one flanked) - if you get some even rolls and hit most of the adjacent targets (add wild Spellfury) and then take a 2 step back.

You provoke a MBA from 2 to 3 foes. If they have all been hit with the Chaos bolt this can get interesting. If 2-3 take the OA (regardless of hitting you or not) - you get  immediate reaction of chaos bolt. If they are stupid enough to continue pursuit and come at you on their attack turn of the same round - you are looking at doing this all over again. (NOTE: I also have Pschic Lock in my build - so all those OA's are at -2)

The secondary attack should still be adding +2 iron Wrists, any +enhancements, and +Chaos power to the 1d6 - correct. And.. if you get insane - possible retrigger of Wild Spellfury each time as you are recasting an at-will power with adjacent enemies.

As far as the dragon sorcerer goes, why would you choose Bedeviling Burst as a Level 1 Encounter power? It seems to me that Tearing Claws would do the same thing, or do it better.

Apr 11, 2010 -- 12:56PM, TheFounderPrime wrote:

As far as the dragon sorcerer goes, why would you choose Bedeviling Burst as a Level 1 Encounter power? It seems to me that Tearing Claws would do the same thing, or do it better.

It might be because this thread was made before that power existed. I understand that the wiki is too cluttered right now and it's hard to see if a thread is dead or not. A quick check that you can do is go to the last post and see if it's even somewhat recent. If not, the build inside is likely outdated. If that's the case, you likely won't want to post in that thread.

Apr 11, 2010 -- 6:43PM, Ytterbium_Dragon wrote:

Apr 11, 2010 -- 12:56PM, TheFounderPrime wrote:

As far as the dragon sorcerer goes, why would you choose Bedeviling Burst as a Level 1 Encounter power? It seems to me that Tearing Claws would do the same thing, or do it better.

It might be because this thread was made before that power existed. I understand that the wiki is too cluttered right now and it's hard to see if a thread is dead or not. A quick check that you can do is go to the last post and see if it's even somewhat recent. If not, the build inside is likely outdated. If that's the case, you likely won't want to post in that thread.

As a request, I wouldn't mind seeing an update on your dragonsorc. With no hybrids of course.... MC is still fine

the daggermaster builds dont work anymore. they changed dagger precision from any power with a dagger criting on an 18-20 to daggermaster and rogue powers criting on an 18-20.