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In honor of the new movie, Terminator Salvation, I've made a series of news builds I've dubbed The Terminator Models.

The T-600 Model - a Warden/Warforged Juggernaut/Demigod build.
The T-600 Model Show

The T-700 Model - a Fighter/Warforged Juggernaut/Demigod build.
The T-700 Model Show

The T-800 Model - a Fighter|Barbarian/Warforged Juggernaut/Demigod build.
The T-800 Model Show

Any feedback is welcome!

Demigod is an optimal epic destiny for most anyone, but Undying Warrior just screams, "Terminator" to me.

Chimaera2000 wrote:

Demigod is an optimal epic destiny for most anyone, but Undying Warrior just screams, "Terminator" to me.

Yeah, Undying Warrior (I'll be back!), Eternal Defender (Come with me if you want to live.) and Adamantine Solder (Hasta la vista, baby.) all look good but unfortunately they all have fighter (or warlord) as a prerequisite.

Are you sure you can't slip a rogue MC in there and get "Termination Threat" ?

:P

Neat build!

How are you gaining an extra 5 HP at both first and second level?

I know you have Toughness, but i dont see how it's working twice during the Heroic Tier

I posted one a while back. Here's what I did differently (and why)

Level 2: Triumphant Vigor ... my plan was to use/abuse the Reparation Apparatus and I like being self sufficient. It's also a minor action, which helps with action economy.

Level 7: You chose Mountain Hammer, I chose Earth Gift. Again, I'm leveraging the Reparation Apparatus.

That's the basic heroic differences. I headed towards Hammer Rhythm and stressed self healing.

LordBOB777 wrote:

How are you gaining an extra 5 HP at both first and second level?

I know you have Toughness, but i dont see how it's working twice during the Heroic Tier

Good catch, I'm not. That was a mistake from a previous version where I was taking toughness at second level instead of 1st.

I've updated the thread with a couple more "models". Unfortunately fighter|barbarian hybrid will have to wait until next month until you can build it in the Character Builder.

I'm looking forward to some new Warforged feats in the Eberron Player's Guide. You may have noticed that they already upgraded the Warforged Juggernaut PP by splitting the Living Construct Perfection feature into the Construct Perfection (which now works on more than just disease) and Unstoppable features.

The dropping of the word "Living" from the PP feature is interesting. Are they getting rid of the "construct" versus "living construct" distinction?

Where are you getting AC18 from in the level 1 T800 build?

By my reckoning you've got Hide armor and a Dex of 13 for an AC of 14, 15 if you include barbarian agility.

Martial Resolve needs Wis 15.

Just wondering.... can anyone give me a brief synopsis of the hybrid rules? I imagine they're from the Dragon magazines, which I do not have a subscription for.... (DM won't allow it, so no sense in buying it)

They appeared as playtest in Dragon. They will be included in PH3 though I believe ...

Nice Terminators!

A quick question:

Belile wrote:

I've updated the thread with a couple more "models".  Unfortunately fighter|barbarian hybrid will have to wait until next month until you can build it in the Character Builder.

I thought WotC said they won't put the hybrid rules in the CB until they've been made official rules, and they're still just a playtest. Meaning you'll probably have to wait until the release of PHB3. Or did I miss something?

Dragon 375:

However, since these rules are experimental and
likely to undergo significant changes before they are
published in final form, we’ve made two decisions
regarding the type of official support that we’ll provide
for this content, decisions different from what
we normally do for D&D Insider⁚ playtest content.
✦ Hybrid characters are not allowed in RPGA sanctioned
events at this time.
✦ The D&D Insider Compendium and D&D Character
Builder will not support hybrid characters at this
time.
We expect that the final version of the hybrid character
rules will be legal for RPGA sanctioned events
and also supported in the D&D Compendium and
the D&D Character Builder. When the final version
is published, we’ll let you know about the change in
status. Thanks for your understanding!

Bigfluffylemon wrote:

Where are you getting AC18 from in the level 1 T800 build?

By my reckoning you've got Hide armor and a Dex of 13 for an AC of 14, 15 if you include barbarian agility.

You're right, it's only 14 AC at level 1. The build doesn't have barbarian agility since it opted to use the hybrid talent feat to pick up battlerager vigor instead.

anomalousman wrote:

Martial Resolve needs Wis 15.

Good catch! I swapped Wis and Dex so the build is now eligible for Martial Resolve. I also dropped Armor Specialization (Chainmail) and picked up Deadly Rage instead.

upho wrote:

Nice Terminators!

A quick question:
I thought WotC said they won't put the hybrid rules in the CB until they've been made official rules, and they're still just a playtest. Meaning you'll probably have to wait until the release of PHB3. Or did I miss something?

Dragon 375:

They listened to their customers and changed their minds. The hybrid playtest from Dragon 374 is in the Character Builder right now. The updated version (from Dragon 375) should come out in the update next month. The monk playtest is also in Character Builder now.

I'm personally nervous about bloodclaw. I know it is the largest damage boost, but my main trouble with running a barbarian is making sure they're conscious and functional the whole battle. Even the bloodclaw bonus isn't worth a couple of rounds of being offline.

Consider that monster HP scale up faster than PC HP. If you could swap any amount of damage to you for about 1.5 times that damage (assuming 50% hit rate) to the enemy, it's only in rare cases that you'd definitely take it, as it makes encounters more swingy. And swingy is bad in the long run.

Anyway, I'd go for axes over hammers. An execution axe gives you a free high crit and +0.5/[W] over a maul, and will therefore match the DPR boost of hammer rhythm at a hit rate of about 65%. (Plus, rolling high crit damage is a lot more fun.) Plus, this lets you take a jagged axe throughout paragon. Doubling the crit chance is enormously handy for a PC with rampage. And if you've got high crit as well, then it's all working well.

anomalousman wrote:

I'm personally nervous about bloodclaw. I know it is the largest damage boost, but my main trouble with running a barbarian is making sure they're conscious and functional the whole battle. Even the bloodclaw bonus isn't worth a couple of rounds of being offline.

Let me play a bit of devil's advocate here... While I agree with you that the number one concern with a barbarian is staying up, none of these builds are straight barbarian. I think all of the builds are significantly more durable than a typical barbarian. In the case of the hybrid, I'd argue that there's quite a bit of synergy with bloodclaw because of the fighter powers that are picked up. Virtually every one of the utility powers help defray the cost of taking bloodclaw damage. Temporary hit points, regeneration, healing and resistance all help ensure that you don't go down. Couple that with the fact that you can "turn of" bloodclaw at anytime if you think you're about to go down and I think it works out well.

anomalousman wrote:

Consider that monster HP scale up faster than PC HP. If you could swap any amount of damage to you for about 1.5 times that damage (assuming 50% hit rate) to the enemy, it's only in rare cases that you'd definitely take it, as it makes encounters more swingy. And swingy is bad in the long run.

I know that monster HP scale up faster than PC HP, but does it ever surpass 1.5 times that of PC HP? Also, I think we should assume a 65% hit rate not 50%. A monster would need 1.95 times the PC's HPs for it to be a bad deal. I'm discounting elite and solo monsters since they count for 2 and 5 times a regular monster. Keep in mind too, that these builds always bump Constitution and also have the Toughness feat so they'll have a little more HPs than average. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by making encounters 'more swingy'. Perhaps you're speaking to variance in expected results?

anomalousman wrote:

Anyway, I'd go for axes over hammers. An execution axe gives you a free high crit and +0.5/[W] over a maul, and will therefore match the DPR boost of hammer rhythm at a hit rate of about 65%. (Plus, rolling high crit damage is a lot more fun.) Plus, this lets you take a jagged axe throughout paragon. Doubling the crit chance is enormously handy for a PC with rampage. And if you've got high crit as well, then it's all working well.

Rending is a great property and having double the critical range at paragon via a jagged weapon has some nice synergy with rampage. It would probably justify taking Charging Rampage much earlier in paragon. However, without Hammer Rhythm, the value of power attack takes a bit of a hit. Is Brutal 2 on a d12 weapon (versus Brutal 1 with gauntlets of destruction) worth a feat?

All in all though I think axes are certainly a strong option. Thanks for the feedback!

What about MC'ing into Rogue so you can get Roundabout Charge for the Fighter/Barbarian hybrid?
I've always lusted after that feat for my barbarian, but the MC slot was always taken for fighter. Now with the hybrids, it's possible.

Belile wrote:

Let me play a bit of devil's advocate here...

I understand all that, as my barb had nearly all those factors in play. All I'm saying is that my (hard fight) playtests gave me the feeling that I wouldn't want any extra damage sources around.

Belile wrote:

I know that monster HP scale up faster than PC HP, but does it ever surpass 1.5 times that of PC HP? Also, I think we should assume a 65% hit rate not 50%. A monster would need 1.95 times the PC's HPs for it to be a bad deal.

I agree with the 65%.

All my playtests were pushing the PCs to the limit, where I was playing 3,4 and even sometimes 5-7 levels over the XP budget. This is where fights stop being easy and you start to see the limits of the party. Up there, the total monster HP is many times the party's HP. So that gives the context of my advice, I suppose. To justify it a little, if the fight isn't hard enough, there's no need to optimise. If that doesn't ring true with you, then ignore my advice and claw some blood.

Belile wrote:

Is Brutal 2 on a d12 weapon (versus Brutal 1 with gauntlets of destruction) worth a feat?

No. High crit is, though. And jagged in paragon is worth a lot to a rampager. With high crit. At epic, I think the gap closes a lot, and separating the two would be hard. That's the sign of balance.

Elwyndas wrote:

What about MC'ing into Rogue so you can get Roundabout Charge for the Fighter/Barbarian hybrid?
I've always lusted after that feat for my barbarian, but the MC slot was always taken for fighter. Now with the hybrids, it's possible.

That feat certainly opens up some interesting tactical options. Question is though, which two feats would you give up in order to get it? Also, I'd have to swap around the stats a bit if I wanted to qualify for sneak of shadows' dexterity 13 prerequisite before epic.

anomalousman wrote:

So that gives the context of my advice, I suppose. To justify it a little, if the fight isn't hard enough, there's no need to optimise. If that doesn't ring true with you, then ignore my advice and claw some blood.

I think your advice is sound given the context. I like the discussion though. It's the classic problem of balancing offense and defense. Seems like bloodclaw still might be worth it, even if you just use it to get one or two quick kills at the beginning of an encounter before settling into a more defensive posture once the number of threats has been reduced.

anomalousman wrote:

No. High crit is, though. And jagged in paragon is worth a lot to a rampager. With high crit. At epic, I think the gap closes a lot, and separating the two would be hard. That's the sign of balance.

So it's probably better to go with a greataxe and still get the high crit property without taking the feat for an execution axe.

One problem with properties like rending and jagged is you have virtually no control over when they go off. If you critical at the beginning of the battle, the battle may be over before it began. If you critical in the middle of the battle, it may change the tide of the battle. If you critical at the end of the battle, it may be too late....

Yep, greataxe is probably the best use of feats. The execution axe is probably the better use of cash.

Jagged doesn't just improve damage from maxing, extra damage dice, high crit and rampage - it also improves unpredictability. A barbarian should be rolling a lot of attacks in the first few rounds. At some level, you just stack the dice in your favour in a DPR sense, and assume it'll work out well. As my granddaddy Stonebender used to tell me: "The race ain't always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet."

Plus, I guarantee you it's fun to play.

I hope you don't mind that I used your T-700 build as the stats for my 21st level pc. Its a really fun build.

If you don't mind, I would love to hear some strategies you may have come up with for the build that I may be able to use in combat.

BTW is it just me or is storm of blades insanely powerful?

anomalousman wrote:

All my playtests were pushing the PCs to the limit, where I was playing 3,4 and even sometimes 5-7 levels over the XP budget. This is where fights stop being easy and you start to see the limits of the party. Up there, the total monster HP is many times the party's HP.

One last thing to consider... When faced with an encounter that is several levels over the appropriate XP budget, your "to hit" percentage usually goes down (unless you're simply facing a greater number of level appropriate monsters). This is the case in which hammer rhythm really shines, since the more you miss, the more damage you do via hammer rhythm.

AZNsupermarket wrote:

I hope you don't mind that I used your T-700 build as the stats for my 21st level pc. Its a really fun build.

I don't mind at all! I'm glad to hear that you're having fun playing it.

AZNsupermarket wrote:

If you don't mind, I would love to hear some strategies you may have come up with for the build that I may be able to use in combat.

At level 21, you have quite a few options depending on the fight. At its heart, the T-700 is a charging build, so you'll want to charge as often as you can. Knockdown Assault, Ruinous Onslaught and Boulder Charge can all be used when charging. You can use Knockdown Assault to knock an enemy prone and push them one square. That'll prevent them from being able to stand and charge you. At level 21, don't forget that charging doesn't end your turn thanks to Unstoppable.

You should enter the Swift Panther Rage as soon as possible, which you should be able to do at least 3 times a day thanks to salves of power. While raging you can shift 2 squares away from your target and then charge them (or someone else) in the same turn. Don't forget you can use Boulder Charge or Inexorable Momentum to bust through an enemy line in order to take out a particularly troublesome skirmisher or controller in the back. If you have the Unyielding Avalanche stance going, you usually want to forego pushing a skirmisher on a charge so they'll take damage and be slowed on their turn. Besides Unyielding Avalance, you have two other stances, so you should usually have one active in most battles.

If you're getting low on HPs, you can start using Crushing Surge. Use Unbreakable to reduce the damage of a particularly nasty hit. If a ranged attack is about to drop you, use Shooter's Nemesis. Iron Warrior and Warforged Resolve can be used to allow you to make saving throws.

AZNsupermarket wrote:

BTW is it just me or is storm of blades insanely powerful?

Storm of Blades is your nova power. Yes, it's insanely powerful and the reason why (along with Swift Panther Rage) you multiclassed into barbarian. When you want to take a particularly troublesome enemy out of battle use Storm of Blades, Trip Up, your Torc of Power Preservation (to recover Storm of Blades), and an action point to do Storm of Blades again. Make sure you're raging for full effect.

Hope this helps!

Could you go into further detail about the level 1 T-700 build defenses? I'm getting some different numbers.

Evilshogun7 wrote:

Could you go into further detail about the level 1 T-700 build defenses? I'm getting some different numbers.

There was an error in the T-700 Level 1 defenses, thanks for catching it. It's fixed now. AC and Reflex defenses both dropped by 2 points each.

Here's the level 1 defenses breakdown:
AC 16 = 10 (base) + 6 (chainmail)
Fort 16 = 10 (base) + 4 (str) + 2 (fighter)
Ref 10 = 10 (base)
Will 12 = 10 (base) + 1 (wis) + 1 (warforged mind)

I'm thinking about changing the T-700 build a bit by taking the hunting wolf style feat so crushing surge can be used on a charge and then swapping knockdown assault for brash strike. Still working out where to fit the feat in though...

I tried out the T-600 for a side-quest recently in addition to playing a T-700 in my current campaign. That was a lot of fun. I should really try out the T-800 build, but I have a feeling like it may be a little impractical to change over mid-campaign.

Now that the warforged juggernaut has changed over to eberron player's guide version on the character builder, and more warforged components have been released, have you come up with any tweaks for the build?

PS I have a small tip: why buy a magic throwing hammer when you can get a distancing or dynamic throwing hammer for the same price?

PPS Again, thanks for making these crazy builds, they're so much fun to play.

Belile wrote:

The T-700 Model, L21 Show

Gear:
dwarven weavemail armor +5
bloodclaw maul +5
horned helm (paragon tier)
torc of power preservation +4
iron armbands of power (paragon tier)
gauntlets of destruction
belt of mountain endurance
boots of adept charging
throwing hammer +4
salve of power (2)
delver's light
standard adventurer's kit

The T-800 Model, L21 Show

Gear:
dwarven weavemail armor +4
bloodclaw maul +4
horned helm (paragon tier)
torc of power preservation +4
iron armbands of power (paragon tier)
gauntlets of destruction
belt of mountain endurance
boots of adept charging
throwing hammer +4
delver's light
standard adventurer's kit

I just notice this inconsistency. I think that these are supposed to be +5. You may want to double check that you calculated the T-800's damage and attack rolls with the proper bonuses.

AZNsupermarket wrote:

PS I have a small tip: why buy a magic throwing hammer when you can get a distancing or dynamic throwing hammer for the same price?

A distance weapon does no extra damage on a critical which is why I didn't go with it. It's certainly a viable option though. I like the idea of a dynamic throwing hammer (once you get 6th level items). It could act as a backup weapon in case you lose your main weapon. Otherwise I'm not sure what you'd want to polymorph it into. Something with more distance maybe if your target is out of range...?

AZNsupermarket wrote:

PPS Again, thanks for making these crazy builds, they're so much fun to play.

No problem. I'm glad you're enjoying them!

AZNsupermarket wrote:

I just notice this inconsistency. I think that these are supposed to be +5. You may want to double check that you calculated the T-800's damage and attack rolls with the proper bonuses.

Thanks for pointing out the inconsistency! I need to double check the T-800 build now that the character builder has been updated with the new hybrid rules. The july updates may change a few things too. I'm a little busy working on The Psion's Handbook right now, but I'll post again when I get a chance to update the builds.

Belile wrote:

A distance weapon does no extra damage on a critical which is why I didn't go with it. It's certainly a viable option though. I like the idea of a dynamic throwing hammer (once you get 6th level items). It could act as a backup weapon in case you lose your main weapon. Otherwise I'm not sure what you'd want to polymorph it into. Something with more distance maybe if your target is out of range...?

Oh snap, I didn't even notice the lack of crit bonus on distancing weapons. I guess looking it over, dynamic and sacrificial weapons seem superior (in every way) to a normal magic throwing hammer as soon as you have access to sixth level items.

Belile wrote:

Thanks for pointing out the inconsistency! I need to double check the T-800 build now that the character builder has been updated with the new hybrid rules. The july updates may change a few things too. I'll post again when I get a chance to update the builds.

Looking forward on checking out you're update. I was actually holding off on changing over from the T-700 build to the T-800 build for my current campaign because I knew the hybrid rules would be update soon.

Hey, I just noticed that battlerager vigor and improved vigor got errata'd:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/UpdateJuly2009.pdf

I can't really tell - does this affect the build in any significant way?

Seeing these models get the D&D treatment kind of made me curious about whether or not we could come up with a T-1000 or T-X build.

_sushigaski_ wrote:

Seeing these models get the D&D treatment kind of made me curious about whether or not we could come up with a T-1000 or T-X build.

On that note, one terminator video game has you playing as a good guy T-800. You are chased by T-900, terminators built just to eliminate T-800s. Maybe a T-900 build could be a warforged build just meant to exploit the T-800's weaknesses and destroy it. This could be useful for games where a player uses the T-800 build and there DMs need something scary to challenge this build.


T-900 series

any update on the T-800 build or the psion handbook still eating up most of your time?

AZNsupermarket wrote:

any update on the T-800 build or the psion handbook still eating up most of your time?

The Psion's Handbook is certainly taking a lot of my time. I never realized what a huge undertaking writing a handbook is. It's crazy to think that people like lordduskblade have written multiple handbooks.

I did, however, take a break and finally load the T-800 into the Character Builder. I was able to correct a lot of errors and have updated it accordingly. Most of them were either cut and paste from earlier models are artifacts of earlier versions. It should be correct now. I didn't really change anything because of the July updates. I can imagine that the mighty battlerage feat isn't nearly as good as it used to be since your temporary hit points aren't as likely to last until the start of your turn. Heck, even with only two rages a day, deadly rage might be a better damage boost. Certainly I think that retraining mighty battlerage at level 21 so you can get feats like bludgeon mastery, primal resurgence and martial resolve earlier is probably worth it. I think I'll change that in my next update. Until then...

Belile wrote:

The Psion's Handbook is certainly taking a lot of my time. I never realized what a huge undertaking writing a handbook is. It's crazy to think that people like lordduskblade have written multiple handbooks.

Having tried my hand at making quite a few different handbooks, I can attest that they are much more time consuming than they appear. I kinda gave up on trying after 4th edition came out:
Archivist Handbook
Master Race List
Dragonborn of Bahamut Optimization Handbook
Wizard Race Handbook
Sorcerer Prestige Class Handbook
Races Forums FAQ

But your psion handbook is coming out well - I encourage you to continue making handbooks as long as feel inspired and able to.

Belile wrote:

I did, however, take a break and finally load the T-800 into the Character Builder. I was able to correct a lot of errors and have updated it accordingly. Most of them were either cut and paste from earlier models are artifacts of earlier versions. It should be correct now. I didn't really change anything because of the July updates. I can imagine that the mighty battlerage feat isn't nearly as good as it used to be since your temporary hit points aren't as likely to last until the start of your turn. Heck, even with only two rages a day, deadly rage might be a better damage boost. Certainly I think that retraining mighty battlerage at level 21 so you can get feats like bludgeon mastery, primal resurgence and martial resolve earlier is probably worth it. I think I'll change that in my next update. Until then...

Is it just me or is there no longer a feat called "hybrid talent (battlerager vigor)"? I can't seem to find it on the current version of the character builder.

AZNsupermarket wrote:

Is it just me or is there no longer a feat called "hybrid talent (battlerager vigor)"? I can't seem to find it on the current version of the character builder.

BUMP!

This question is kind of important for my ongoing campaign. I would love to figure out what's going on here.

AZNsupermarket wrote:

Is it just me or is there no longer a feat called "hybrid talent (battlerager vigor)"? I can't seem to find it on the current version of the character builder.

The feat is called "Hybrid Talent". For your hybrid talent you select "Fighter Combat Talent". Then for your fighter combat talent you can select "Battlerager Vigor". The other hybrid talent options don't have that additional step. Hope that helps!

Belile wrote:

The feat is called "Hybrid Talent". For your hybrid talent you select "Fighter Combat Talent". Then for your fighter combat talent you can select "Battlerager Vigor". The other hybrid talent options don't have that additional step. Hope that helps!

Wow. I was so blind. Thanks so much!!!

With the release of the Warden Essentials article in Dragon 379, the T-600 gets a bit of a boost.  There's now a warden at-will power (Warden's Lunge) that can be used on a charge.  Even better is that the power has an effect that you mark the target until the end of your next turn.  Nature's Wrath (to mark all adjacent enemies), shift, charge (with another mark at the end of the charge) now becomes a pretty effective strategy.

Also worth noting is that the article clarifies a few things about Nature's Wrath.  Here are a couple of quotes:

"It's a free action.  One thing this means is that you can use Nature's Wrath at any point in your turn, including midway through another action such as a move or a charge."

"You can mark, but you don’t have to. If multiple enemies are adjacent to you, you can choose to use it to mark some of them but not others."

Adventurer's Vault also has a few items that could spruce up the build as well including Marauder's Armor and the Maw of the Guardian weapon.

Thanks for all the info and suggestions.  I love wardens and I love Warforged.  Once I get done with my current Warforged Fighter, I'll have to try the T-600 out.  Has anyone tried a Barbarian / Fighter hybrid or multi-class with the Warforged??? 


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