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Switch to Forum Live View 'New' Fallacy: The Munchkin Fallacy
5 years ago  ::  Aug 25, 2008 - 3:25PM #1
AlphatheGreat
Date Joined: Mar 22, 2008
Posts: 1,547
This is a formalization of an argument I've made before, and I feel it's time to make it formal so it'll be easier to reference in the future.
My apologies if this is redundant(my search-fu isn't so strong, but I didn't find any threads that have already made this official).


The Munchkin Fallacy,

A common 4e Character Optimization mistake.
It shows up a lot.  Many of us have seen it, many of us have committed it from time to time.

The Munchkin Fallacy: "I can because the rules don't say I can't."
This is the simplest form, but it shows up in more subtle forms. 
More accurately,you commit the Munchkin Fallacy when you interpret a rule based on something that is not said(or the fact that it is not said), and claiming it to be RAW.

The Proof and Analysis Show

First, the evidence:

PHB, pg. 11]Three Basic Rules
In addition to the core mechanic, three principles are at the heart of the DUNGEONS & DRAGONS game. Many other rules are based on these assumptions.
Simple Rules, Many Exceptions
Every class, race, feat, power, and monster in the D&D game lets you break the rules in some way. These can be very minor ways: Most characters don’ wrote:

Three Basic Rules
In addition to the core mechanic, three principles are at the heart of the DUNGEONS & DRAGONS game. Many other rules are based on these assumptions.
Simple Rules, Many Exceptions
Every class, race, feat, power, and monster in the D&D game lets you break the rules in some way. These can be very minor ways: Most characters don’t know how to use longbows, but every elf does. These exceptions can also appear in very significant ways: A swing with a sword normally does a few points of damage, but a high-level fighter can use a power that can fell multiple monsters in a single blow. All these game elements are little ways of breaking the rules—and most of the books published for the D&D game are full of these game elements.
Specific Beats General
If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins. For example, a general rule states that you can’t use a daily power when you charge. But if you have a daily power that says you can use it when you
charge, the power’s specific rule wins. It doesn’t mean that you can use any daily power when you charge, just that one.


Second, the logic:
1.  Assume that the purpose of the game system is to simulate combat and critical situations in a fictional setting, such that the players can direct their characters to take actions that are outside the experience and abilities of the players themselves, but within the experience and abilities of the fictional characters they control.  For aspects of life that the rules do not attempt to cover, assume that it functions in the same way as the normal world(ie, the rules don't have to tell you that what goes up must come down, nor that your character needs to use the latrine sometime).

2.  Given this assumption, the first fundamental principle makes it clear that powers 'beyond the norm'--including the ability to swing a sword accurately--must be given by a rule.  Player characters are empowered by the rules that let them take a PC Class, and the powers that those classes give them.  If there were no such rules, no PC would be any more skilled than the commoners we strive to save.
In other words, if there isn't a rule that says you can do something 'beyond the norm,' you can't without DM discretion(thus leaving RAW territory).
The example given in the above-quoted text makes this clear("most characters don't know how to use longbows, but every elf does" and "A swing with a sword normally does a few points of damage, but a high-level fighter can use a power...[etc.]"

3.  Adding in "Specific Beats General" places these 'exceptions' in a hierarchy, formalizing the assumption of "Simple Rules, Many Exceptions" that if there is a rule that provides exception to another, the exception takes precedence.  Rules conflicts occur in three basic cases: 1)The wording provided does not cover a given instance, 2)The wording of the specific or general rule is vague or confusing, 3)It is unclear in exactly what way the specific rule alters the general one(or this alteration contradicts the RAI or common sense).

4.  We are supposed to follow the two primary principles in an effort to reconcile such conflicts when they occur.



Variations on this fallacy include:
1.  Using parallels to assume a rule.  For example, the statement "both the Warlock's infernal pact and star pact have inherent limitations on how their boons stack, therefore Fey Pact must as well" commits a variation of the Munchkin Fallacy, by assuming that because a parallel portion of text works a particular way, the other portion must work the same way.  This doesn't mean the speaker is wrong, it just means that his statement is insufficient to judge the RAW(though it may be helpful in determining RAI).
2.  Reading between the lines.
3.  Being unsatisfied with the phrasing of the rule.  This is a result of committing both a Munchkin Fallacy and a Straw Man fallacy.  For example, regarding Warlock Pact at-wills, a person might say "the general rules uses the word "choose."  Because the Eldritch Pact text does not also use the word "choose," clearly the at-will given by Eldritch Pact is not one of the two at-wills given by the general rules."  The straw man is setting up the word "choose" and refusing to accept alternative wording.  The Munchkin Fallacy consists of assuming that because the Pact wording does not specify it's the same at-will power, it means a different at-will power in addition to the ones you get normally...a leap of logic not necessarily justified(*note, there may be other rules that make the speaker's case, but the one given is insufficient).

In practice, the analysis given earlier has lead me to a very important conclusion:
--When attempting to determine the RAW when rules conflict arises, give priority to the interpretation that follows both the Specific and the General rules.
For Example Show
The Wizard spellbook class feature uses phraseology that leaves open the possibility of casting multiple spells of the same level in a given day.  This may be justified by saying that the spellbook rule is an exception to the general rule characters gain one Daily Slot at particular levels, which Slot is filled by the power you choose according to your class description.  Saying that "because every other class can only use one Daily Power of a particular level in a day, the wizard must also" would actually be committing the Munchkin Fallacy, as earlier described!
*However*
The general rule, which states that you gain a Daily Slot of a particular level at given points in your character's development, is not actually contradicted by the spellbook rule!  There is no language in the Wizard description that states that the general rule no longer applies, so we must first give priority to any reading that would allow us to follow both the general rule of character development and the specific rule of how spellbooks function.  On examination of the wording, we find that we can follow both the specific and general rule by interpreting them thusly:
A wizard gets daily powers at every level, just as every other character does.  However, because he has a spellbook he is allowed to inscribe two such powers into the book.  Every day, he may choose one or the other of those two powers to put in the appropriate level daily slot.
Every other interpretation either breaks the specific rule, or breaks the general rule.  Only one interpretation(which, fortunately, appears to be RAI as well) actually allows us to follow both the General and Specific.
If it were not possible to reconcile the two, the specific rule would of course trump and wizards really would be able to memorize any spell in any level daily slot.

The above example demonstrates well the point: while Specific beats General, the Specific doesn't necessarily invalidate the general.

This leads to the final variation of the Munchkin Fallacy, and the one I think may be most important:
4. If a rules interpretation unnecessarily ignores either the specific or the general rule, it is committing the Munchkin Fallacy.

In short, try to follow as many rules as possible, working from specific back to general.  If following the specific rule means there is no way to follow the general rule, then the specific trumps.  However, if it is possible to follow both, do so.  To do otherwise is to commit the Munchkin Fallacy.

Disclaimer: Show

The Munchkin Fallacy applies only in the discussions of "RAW"(Rules As Written) that come up in 4e Char-Op work:
-Many of the listed examples of the Munchkin Fallacy are still valid for judging RAI(Rules As Intended).
-The 3.5e books do not contain the language given as my basis for this Fallacy, and as such the Munchkin Fallacy is unofficial and only really exists as a function or practical concerns(in which case the Ten Commandments of Practical Optimization are a better guide anyway).
-In Theoretical Optimization, committing the Munchkin Fallacy is actually encouraged, as TO has an entirely different goal.
-In matters of Practical Optimization, the RAW is often irrelevant.  Committing the Munchkin Fallacy is never a good reason for an argument to be dismissed: sometimes the interpretation given is just good ol' common sense(as in the debate over the vagueness of Warlock at-wills: no one believes giving Warlocks 4 at-wills is practical or even usable, but it may well be RAW)
-Finally, as with all fallacies, just because an argument commits the Munchkin Fallacy doesn't mean it's WRONG, it just means that the given argument is flawed and needs better support to fly.
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5 years ago  ::  Aug 25, 2008 - 3:37PM #2
terrydu
Date Joined: Jun 18, 2008
Posts: 54

AlphatheGreat wrote:

The Munchkin Fallacy: "I can because the rules don't say I can't."
More accurately,the Munchkin Fallacy is the interpretation of a rule based largely on something that is not said, and claiming it to be RAW.


I don't get it. These two appear to be opposites of each other. Is it making up rules in the absence of rules ("based on something that is not said")? Or is it not following what you see as RAI when there aren't rules ("the rules don't say I can't")?

It's clear that you put some thought into this, but I don't see the clear message that you must be intending. You seem to jump all over the place -- for example by the end of the topic you seem to be implying that Specific doesn't trump General.

And at the most basic level, I think I disagree with what you're asserting. Because imo if it's not stated, then it's not a rule. Just follow RAW -- don't try and second-guess.

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5 years ago  ::  Aug 25, 2008 - 3:46PM #3
AlphatheGreat
Date Joined: Mar 22, 2008
Posts: 1,547

terrydu wrote:

I don't get it. These two appear to be opposites of each other. Is it making up rules in the absence of rules ("based on something that is not said")? Or is it not following what you see as RAI when there aren't rules ("the rules don't say I can't")?

It's clear that you put some thought into this, but I don't see the clear message that you must be intending. You seem to jump all over the place -- for example by the end of the topic you seem to be implying that Specific doesn't trump General.

And at the most basic level, I think I disagree with what you're asserting. Because imo if it's not stated, then it's not a rule. Just follow RAW -- don't try and second-guess.


Edited for clarity, and replaced the text toward the end(which I assume caused some of the confusion) with:

AlphatheGreat]In short, try to follow as many rules as possible, working from specific back to general. If following the specific rule means there is no way to follow the general rule, then the specific trumps. However, if it is possible to follow both, do so. To do otherwise is to commit the Munchkin Fallacy.


Responding to your post:
You are correct that if it's not stated, it's not a rule. That is actually the point of this thread and fallacy. Many many times I find myself running across people who either:
1) Openly claim that they can do something because the rules don't disallow it.
2) Unknowingly do the same thing, by committing one of the variations of the Fallacy that I listed.

In such cases I have frequently found myself repeating the same argument against it, and unable to find the threads in which I did so before. As a result, I decided to type it up in its own thread and make it something I can easily reference.

As for jumping all around, yeah, that happens when I'm typing straight without outlining. I'll try to make it more organized as we go along. I'll probably move the last variation of the fallacy up to the top with the others, for example.

[edit]More adjustments made in the interests of organi wrote:

In short, try to follow as many rules as possible, working from specific back to general. If following the specific rule means there is no way to follow the general rule, then the specific trumps. However, if it is possible to follow both, do so. To do otherwise is to commit the Munchkin Fallacy.[/quote]
Responding to your post:
You are correct that if it's not stated, it's not a rule. That is actually the point of this thread and fallacy. Many many times I find myself running across people who either:
1) Openly claim that they can do something because the rules don't disallow it.
2) Unknowingly do the same thing, by committing one of the variations of the Fallacy that I listed.

In such cases I have frequently found myself repeating the same argument against it, and unable to find the threads in which I did so before. As a result, I decided to type it up in its own thread and make it something I can easily reference.

As for jumping all around, yeah, that happens when I'm typing straight without outlining. I'll try to make it more organized as we go along. I'll probably move the last variation of the fallacy up to the top with the others, for example.

[edit]More adjustments made in the interests of organization.

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5 years ago  ::  Aug 25, 2008 - 4:14PM #4
lordduskblade
Date Joined: Aug 17, 2007
Posts: 8,387
Pretty interesting. I don't have much to add to it, except that Munchkins and Rules Lawyers annoy the hells out of me.
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5 years ago  ::  Aug 25, 2008 - 4:18PM #5
FlimFlam
Date Joined: Aug 7, 2004
Posts: 368
Where is your Wiki page? One can not make a new fallacy w/o a wiki page. It's the law.
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5 years ago  ::  Aug 25, 2008 - 4:19PM #6
FlimFlam
Date Joined: Aug 7, 2004
Posts: 368

lordduskblade wrote:

Pretty interesting. I don't have much to add to it, except that Munchkins and Rules Lawyers annoy the hells out of me.


How do you define "annoys"? There is nothing in the rules that defines it. It's not a condition, though it sounds like it could be one. I don't believe that Rules Lawyers or Munchins "annoy" you w/o you citing proof that "annoy" exists within the RAW.

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5 years ago  ::  Aug 25, 2008 - 4:22PM #7
lordduskblade
Date Joined: Aug 17, 2007
Posts: 8,387

FlimFlam wrote:

How do you define "annoys"? There is nothing in the rules that defines it. It's not a condition, though it sounds like it could be one. I don't believe that Rules Lawyers or Munchins "annoy" you w/o you citing proof that "annoy" exists within the RAW.






Very, very well earned.

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5 years ago  ::  Aug 25, 2008 - 6:40PM #8
Omen_of_Peace
Date Joined: Feb 4, 2007
Posts: 5,859
Rule 2 of the Holy Commandments.
OoP's characters Show
My current characters in Real Adventures Play-by-Post games:

  • Feänor in Such Tangled Webs They Weave

  • Jasra in Eberron: The Night Below

  • Maeve in The Lost History of Istar

  • Rox in Pirates of Eberron

  • Ulm in Pathfinder: Rise of the Runelords


Campaign in Eberron: Auction of Shade
3E: Dispelling and Counterspelling Compilation
4E: Homebrew dragonmark powers
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5 years ago  ::  Aug 25, 2008 - 6:48PM #9
AlphatheGreat
Date Joined: Mar 22, 2008
Posts: 1,547

Omen_of_Peace wrote:

Rule 2 of the Holy Commandments.


Indeed, though now Rule 2 is no longer merely practical optimization, it is also RAW(hence this thread).

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5 years ago  ::  Aug 26, 2008 - 7:26AM #10
Pyrohemophiliac
Date Joined: Jan 23, 2007
Posts: 71
So when people cite RAW I really don't think they are doing so to munchkin it up most of the time. I think finding loopholes in RAW is important because it shows us and Wizards where the text needs to be clarified. Most people I see citing ridiculous RAW openly denounce using these terrible wordings to break the game.

In an ideal world RAW matches the interpretation. In the real world this is often not the case.
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