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Switch to Forum Live View The Ranger Handbook: How to strike them where it hurts
5 years ago  ::  Jul 10, 2008 - 11:59AM #21
ChaosMage
  • Dragon Slayer
Date Joined: Apr 22, 2001
Posts: 2,838

Thessik_Irontail wrote:

Just curious because maybe im missing something here but why on earth would you want a Melee Dex ranger when almost all of the melee ranger powers are Str vs AC and [w]+str?

It seems to me that a better melee ranger is one who has 18+ strength at level 1 with maybe 16+ dex as a secondary attribute. You need the str for the damage and to hit of regular attacks and most powers. Dex is for armor class, reflex, and ranger skills, with a side bonus of ranged attack for the odd time you may want it, and of course stormwarden damage (which is secondary to actually ensureing that you HIT the guy (str) with your powers).


Stormwarden and scimitar dance both use your dex to do more damage; I've seen math showing that, given a 50/50 chance to hit, a ranger will do MORE average damage with a high Dex than a high strength (doing damage on a miss makes a huge difference where average damage is concerned, particularly since rangers generally make multiple attacks). A similar statistic analysis showed that a high Dex high Str scimitar ranger was the most damaging (on average) build in the game so far.

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5 years ago  ::  Jul 10, 2008 - 12:02PM #22
GeorgeFHarris
Date Joined: Feb 1, 2006
Posts: 337

ChaosMage wrote:

Stormwarden and scimitar dance both use your dex to do more damage; I've seen math showing that, given a 50/50 chance to hit, a ranger will do MORE average damage with a high Dex than a high strength (doing damage on a miss makes a huge difference where average damage is concerned, particularly since rangers generally make multiple attacks). A similar statistic analysis showed that a high Dex high Str scimitar ranger was the most damaging (on average) build in the game so far.


ChaosMage, do you have a link to that analysis? That's the type of link that I want to put in this handbook.

Thanks,

GH

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5 years ago  ::  Jul 10, 2008 - 12:20PM #23
Pandexander
Date Joined: Jun 19, 2008
Posts: 846
Thanks for mentioning the Pit Fighter as an option for an Archer Paragon Path.

So far the Handbook seems to be very good work - thanks for this too.
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5 years ago  ::  Jul 10, 2008 - 12:45PM #24
Cadfan
Date Joined: May 7, 2005
Posts: 800

GeorgeFHarris wrote:

For a PC that is pumping Wisdom instead of Dex, they should probably go to Scale Armor, as its specialization has the same requirement as Chainmail.


Eventually, yes, you probably should. It costs an extra feat though.

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5 years ago  ::  Jul 10, 2008 - 1:09PM #25
ChaosMage
  • Dragon Slayer
Date Joined: Apr 22, 2001
Posts: 2,838

GeorgeFHarris wrote:

ChaosMage, do you have a link to that analysis? That's the type of link that I want to put in this handbook.

Thanks,

GH


It took me a while to hunt it down, but I found this thread on ENWorld: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=234620

It's the same OP, with the same spreadsheets, but he originally posted over here. I can't find that thread; I don't know if it was lost during one of the database issues or if I'm just not finding it. It's a general analysis, not focused on rangers but a variety of classes, and only looks at levels 1, 11, and 21. It's pretty limited at the level 1 analysis; the only ranger used in that one is an elf bow ranger, though that is one of the best for that level. Bugbear scimitar stormwardens are generally on top at 11th level, and if you're limited to PHB races elf scimitar stormwardens win. At 21 level, bugbear scimitar stormwardens are still generally on top, beaten only by minotaur fighters using unyielding avalanche (which is, again, doing automatic damage that happens whether you happen to hit that round).

Edit: Also, since the post on rangers doing more damage with a high dex than with a high str was in the thread on these boards I can't find, I should note that I think it was based on twin strike, which doesn't add str damage; therefore increasing damage done on a miss was helping more than increasing str, which would help hit but wouldn't increase the damage done when you did hit.

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5 years ago  ::  Jul 10, 2008 - 1:14PM #26
GeorgeFHarris
Date Joined: Feb 1, 2006
Posts: 337

Cadfan wrote:

Regarding Scale Armor Prof/Spec: Eventually, yes, you probably should. It costs an extra feat though.


When I get to the feats, I'll probably be categorizing them according to what they give you. Some of the first categories that come to mind are:

1. Initiative - Quick Draw, Improved Initiative, Danger Senses, etc.
2. Attack Bonus - Nimble Blace, Elven Precision, Action Surge, etc.
3. Damage Bonus - Weapon Focus, WP (superior weapon), etc.
4. AC Bonus - TWD, Armor Proficiency, Armor Specialization, etc.
5. Multiclass Feats
6. Skill Feats
7. Mobility Feats
8. Racial Feats
9. Utility - Anything not covered in the above feats.

Can anyone think of others? Should I break out the racial feats into a separate category or put them each in one of the above categories. Some feats may fall into multiple categories.

And these will be broken down by Tier. Probably try to mention how useful they are to each build.

GH

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5 years ago  ::  Jul 10, 2008 - 1:29PM #27
Thessik_Irontail
Date Joined: Jun 13, 2008
Posts: 55

ChaosMage wrote:

Stormwarden and scimitar dance both use your dex to do more damage; I've seen math showing that, given a 50/50 chance to hit, a ranger will do MORE average damage with a high Dex than a high strength (doing damage on a miss makes a huge difference where average damage is concerned, particularly since rangers generally make multiple attacks). A similar statistic analysis showed that a high Dex high Str scimitar ranger was the most damaging (on average) build in the game so far.


Thanks for the explaination and its an interesting theory for sure, however I dont quite understand how the damage matches up.

Scimitar dance only does damage if the attack misses, Dex damage only right? and storm warden does dex damage wether the attack hits or misses (which is nice!).

seems like a 24 dex character might be doing a good amount of "miss damage" say 14 dmg a missed swing, which will bring his average damage up vs someone without scimitar dance. But then again he is going to be getting that low ball 14 damage a lot more often as he misses more often too. if a guy has 24 strength thats a +7 difference in to-hit ability, and a hit scores on the higher end of the average damage then a miss does it not?

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5 years ago  ::  Jul 10, 2008 - 1:35PM #28
Armisael
Date Joined: Sep 17, 2007
Posts: 11,299
Here's my comments on the powers. I'll be using your list as a base and then pointing out differing opinions etc.

The At-Will list is perfect. No changes there.

The level 1 encounter power list should feature a change: Two-Fanged Strike should be a blue power, as it has tremendous damage potential, and doesn't have Fox Cunning's drawback, which is having to get hit to activate it. In my opinion, how useful they are is inversely proportional, and depends on your attack bonus. The higher it is, the better Two-Fanged gets and the worse Cunning becomes. Thus, it is as good a choice as Cunning (Or better, with the appropriate setup. For example, a melee ranger with a high to-hit chance using PA.)

The dailies are A-okay.

The utilities should be revised. Crucial advice is good, but it ain't all it's cracked up to be, as rangers don't have that much overlap with other classes. That said, it should still be black, as a success in perception, endurance, or Athletics can be very vital.

Unbalancing parry is red crap. The benefit it grants is rather minor and can be easily obtained with clever positioning.

Yield Ground, meanwhile, is either blue or sky blue. It's a given that you're going to be hit sometime and Yield Ground is both an offensive tool, repositioning you and giving you a chance to strike at the right foe, and a defensive tool, boosting ALL of your defenses after just one hit (For comparison, Combat Anticipation boosts only by one, is a paragon feat, and doesn't work against every attack). It stays useful throughout your career, and can save you a lot of pain.

The encounter 3 powers should be reevaluated. True, free attacks are good, and Disruptive strike is awesome for it's penalty, but it would be foolish to underestimate cut and run and thundertusk boar strike. The first one is basically a retributionless strike, which comes in really hand for meleers, and the second one, while requiring two hits for the full effect, comes in pretty handy for ranged attackers, who can use it to get out of a sticky situation, even with a one square push. Shadow Wasp Strike sucks, though.

The level 5 powers are okay. Maybe I'd emphasize how Frenzied Skirmish likely means a lost turn for a foe with no save, but it's okay.

No comment on level 6. I agree with it.

On level 7, no comments. It's basically a lowpoint for the ranger.

I agree on level 9, too. It would really take a special kind of moron not to take Attacks on the run, as it does ludicrous damage.

On level 10, the only change I'd make is stress how useful Expeditious Stride is. It either makes you fly through the battlefield, or it means you can play Kobold for a while. And we all know those sneaky buggers have an awesome power.

No comment on level 13. It's a succinct and good analysis of the level.

Same with 15.

No comment on 16, too.

However, that streak of agreements ends on level 17. While I agree Cheetah's rake is awesome, I find it really weird that you do not recommend Triple Shot. Free attack or not, Arrow of Vengeance pales in comparison to a power that inflicts such gross damage (A pit fighter archer could easily add 40-50 damage on multiple constant bonuses, before we even factor W damage). True, it requires a setup, but I'm sure the Tactical warlord will be happy to oblige and give you a Warlord's Favor if it means such a huge amount of damage.

I agree once again on level 19. Maybe I'd stress how powerful Cruel Cage of Steel can be (For example, a Pit Fighter Lasting Frost ranger can deal upwards of 55 extra damage, and the attacks are extra likely to hit, AND they have debuffs), but that's it.

We think alike for level 22. In my opinion, Forest Ghost and Safe Stride are the better powers of the bunch, but they're all pretty good.

Level 23 is a no-brainer in the power choice. There's nothing I can add.

I have to disagree on level 25, though. For a melee ranger, Tiger's Reflex IS A TRAP. It's not that it is a bad power, buuuuuuuut...it overlaps with Follow-Up blow, so you can't have them both. Thus, Bloodstorm is the choice to take with a melee ranger if you just HAVE to pick something of this level.

On level 27, I've nuthin' to say.

On level 29, though, my opinion is this: a melee ranger shouldn't replace his Attacks on the run until this level, and here swap it for Follow-up Blow. If your fellow party members do their job, your hit rate should be anywhere from 60% to 85% consistently. Thus, the Blow can be very, very deadly.

Other than that, there's nothing else to say. This is a pretty good job, and I applaud you for the analysis.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
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5 years ago  ::  Jul 10, 2008 - 2:00PM #29
GeorgeFHarris
Date Joined: Feb 1, 2006
Posts: 337

Armisael wrote:

Here's my comments on the powers. I'll be using your list as a base and then pointing out differing opinions etc.

...

Other than that, there's nothing else to say. This is a pretty good job, and I applaud you for the analysis.


Remember that I did use the analysis of someone else, and as I revise it, I'll be sure to use input from responses on this list, and I'll start color coding it.

Right now, I've only had a chance to do the 1st level powers, but the more input, the better this handbook will be.

GH

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5 years ago  ::  Jul 10, 2008 - 2:12PM #30
unfortunate_crow
Date Joined: Nov 23, 2006
Posts: 54
I'm disappointed that Manticore-whatever (Encounter 23) was omitted. You get damage that approaches the levels of Three-in-one shot (Daily 29), and you get to use it every encounter.
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