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13 months ago ::
Mar 25, 2009 - 5:24AM
#1
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I tried to get some answers on this forum, and did get some but it was inconsistent. Asked CS, and they said: "CS reply"
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Hi there Joe,
Thank you for contacting Wizards of the Coast game support!
A damage roll is defined on pg.276 of the Player's Handbook for the purposes of bonus damage. It says that damage bonuses such as those from feats or from a weapon's enhancement bonus are applied to the initial *damage rolls* of successful attacks. Therefore if the roll is not an initial damage roll, you are not applying bonus damage to the effect. Also, this means that if you damage someone as part of an effect without making an attack against them, damage bonuses do not apply.
Example 1) The later rounds of the Stinking Cloud do not benefit from bonus damage because the damage in question is not the direct result of you making a successful attack.
Example 2) Yes, because these are damage rolls resulting from attacks, you apply bonus damage to each of the attacks from a Twin Strike.
Example 3) Yes, Chill Wind and Flame Seed benefit from bonus damage for the same reason as Example 2 above.
Example 4) The 1d6 damage from leaving squares is not damage resulting from a direct attack roll. Therefore no bonus damage is dealt.
Example 5) No extra damage is applied because of the same reason as Example 4 above.
Hopefully this clarifies things for you!
Take Care and Good Gaming!
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What I had asked was... "Joe's Question"
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I am confused as to exactly when you add static mods (such as implement enhancement, sorceror damage bonus, staff of ruin item bonus, feats, etc) to a damage roll, or what counts as such. I have had no luck in the forums and cannot find it in the books.
Can you please clarify what happens in each case below please?
Example 1:
Stinking Cloud: Does 1d10+INT on hit. Also, does 1d10+INT for any creature in its zone at the beginning of their turn.
The first 1d10+INT adds Weapon Focus:staff(if appropriate), enhancement bonus of the staff, maybe staff of ruin effects, and so forth.
However, what about the second 1d10+INT? When the bad guys start their turn or get shoved into it. I thought static mods applied too. Do they, or not?
(I assume that they do)
Example 2:
Ok, so how about damage rolls that do NOT list the stat as adding?
Twin Strike for example. It does [W], but no adding STR or DEX.
From experience, I know that static mods DO apply, even though there is no stat associated with the [W] roll. This is an interesting data point...
Example 3:
Druid Chill WInd and Flame seed. They do 1d6 damage. Are ANY mods added to this?
From what I have read, I ASSUME yes. Otherwise the power would be very weak. However this sets me up for....
Example 4:
Blood Pulse - does 2d6+INT, and 1d6 per square pushed. Why does this NOT gain any Enhancement or static mods?
It is a damage roll, right?
Obviously, it would be stupidly overpowered if it did. But rules-wise, why doesn't it?
It works for the druidic at-wills. Why not blood pulse?
Example 5:
Dire Radiance and Hellish Rebuke. Does 1d6+CON initially, and if triggered does another 1d6+CON.
Would that secondary damage apply the static mods, etc?
Why or why not?
I would really appreciate some clarification. It is very difficult to analyze the new powers that contain XdY rolls all over the place in 'rider' effects. How do I know which ones add your enhancement and other static bonuses?
My previous thought of 'if it adds a stat to the end such as 1d10+INT or 1d6+CHA or whatever, then you add the static mods'.
However, this surely is not the case, since the druidic at-wills and several other PHB2 powers would seem to be way underpowered. Plus Twin Strike in that case would then not have static-mods added either.
Thanks a lot!
The upshot of this is that a LOT of powers are weakened significantly. Stinking cloud no longer is quite as uber since the secondary 1d10+INT will not add enhancement or other static mods. Sorcerers REALLY take it in the balls on this one. Tons of their powers have riders like "do 1d6 to everything around them". I figured... surely, as lousy as these powers are, it would add the static mods to the 1d6. Apparantly not! So we have a buncha high level powers that deal insulting 1d6 secondary or conditional damage. This affects Warlock Hellish Rebuke as well.
My Sorc Guide Link:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19649162/Joes_Sorcerer_Guide_AP_update_51509
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13 months ago ::
Mar 25, 2009 - 5:42AM
#2
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Well, someone has to burst the bubble, so let me be the first... CSR is not authoritative. There, I said it. I'm sorry you had to find out like this. The pain will lessen in time. Unless someone from R&D wants to include some examples like these in the next FAQ / errata (I'm sorry, I mean "updates") then I don't think anyone will play this way. It just hoses the casters in general, as you pointed out.
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13 months ago ::
Mar 25, 2009 - 6:03AM
#3
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I can't imagine this being upheld, casters are struggling as is.
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13 months ago ::
Mar 25, 2009 - 6:12AM
#4
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At the very least, in the case of sorcerers, there is an exception. They add their secondary attribute bonus to any arcane power damage roll.
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13 months ago ::
Mar 25, 2009 - 6:26AM
#5
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While this would be a sane Update/FAQ-ruling, it's not what the rules currently say.
Implements give bonuses to damage rolls with no special restrictions (as long as it's an implement power, obviously), for instance (unlike weapons, which do have some restrictions).
The 1d6 damage from moving while under Blood Pulse shouldn't reasonably get a +12 modifier for every step from a +6 Staff of Ruin, but it's very hard to find any rules support for not including the extra damage. I'm all for an official (i.e. not CS) update/clarification/FAQ/erratum.
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13 months ago ::
Mar 25, 2009 - 6:56AM
#6
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With all respect to CS I have to disagree. For example under Orbs (p 238 PH) says "you can apply the enchantment bonus of an orb to the attack rolls and damage rolls of any of your powers that have the implement keyword and can use the orb's properties and powers."
It says nothing about the bonus only applying when you hit or to the first damage roll or anything else.
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13 months ago ::
Mar 25, 2009 - 7:03AM
#7
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Obviously this particular CS guy is simply going under the assumption that a "Damage Roll" is defined by "Damage being rolled after a successful Attack Roll." Since we've all argued this particular subject to death, this isn't very helpful or really anything new.
However, I personally like this Ruling, as it immediately puts a damper on Stances and every other Broken Martial Power Source concept that abuses this crap (with the exception of Dual Strike, of course). It also prevents Blood Pulse crap, Stinking Cloud being the most powerful Wizard Daily, etc, etc.
As to it nerfing Casters, that's not really true. Most Casters don't really rely on the secondary crap to be useful; it's just an added bonus for most of them. Sorcerers also add their Extra Damage to any damage they deal, so THAT'S an exception right there. Lastly, we already KNOW that Wizards suck for any sort of DPR in general; it's not like this does THAT much to make them any worse.
Resident Logic Cannon
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13 months ago ::
Mar 25, 2009 - 7:14AM
#8
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Same here. I like the ruling. I just don't think it's supported by the rules.
That it nerfs casters (already comparatively underpowered) while leaving weapon users less affected is a separate issue.
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13 months ago ::
Mar 25, 2009 - 7:19AM
#9
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Same here. I like the ruling. I just don't think it's supported by the rules.
That's just it. This IS supported by the Rules if you consider the following:
1) The term "Damage Roll" is not actually defined in the PHB. One would assume it would be a Roll that would deal Damage.
2) This CS response seems geared towards the assumption that WotC meant to define a Damage Roll as, "A Roll dealing Damage following an Attack Roll." This would make perfect sense, all things considered, and is probably more Balanced in general.
Resident Logic Cannon
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13 months ago ::
Mar 25, 2009 - 7:23AM
#10
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Sorcerers also add their Extra Damage to any damage they deal, so THAT'S an exception right there..
I do not think this is true. The sorcerer ability actually says they add extra damage to any arcane damage rolls so if you go with this this CS ruling their extra damage would not apply either. (Unless secondary damage is somehow simultaneously not a damage roll when it comes to implements and feats but is a damage roll when it comes to the sorcerer class feature.)
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