I don't understand what's so optimized about about the Elf Druid/Cleric that another class can't do better. If I'm not mistaken you would take the Elf Druid for all the beast form subpar striker stuff right? Are you going for control or strike damage here? I can very easily see an Invoker or a Devout Cleric being a better ranged striker and healer. But then again I don't know what I'm missing about the Elf Druid.
I agree. . .
Considering non-optimized characters, but an optimized party. I think taclord is a far better leader than any other. As he can at-will replicate the striker´s attack ( Ranger or Avenger, for example ).
How the hell does this optimization work? It's flawed at it's very core and almost completely through.
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Don't be rude for the sake of being rude. Characters can multiclass; it's a basic component of the game. If you read Champion of Order's description it actually almost suits a fighter more than a paladin. And people routinely truncate Warlord (Tactical) to TacLord on this board. If mine's the first post in which you've encountered that abbreviation, then you're too new to reading these posts to be criticizing someone's execution of one.
I was under the impression that it was best to have 2 strikers, 1 defender, 1 leader, and 1 leader or controller in a 5-man party.
One of the reasons I'm a big fan of halfling 20/16 Artful Dodgers is that they have good enough Cha to serve as a face, while having enough AC to keep up in melee, as well as ridiculous OA AC to trigger CCs for the fighter.
There's some debate on that ideal composition. That's part of the point of this exercise. There are those of us who believe extra healing is really the most important fifth member function.
The Artful Dodger can't +10 everyone else's damage when they're circling a durable target and wailing away on it. Nor set up a zone of minor healing for the encounter. When suggesting a replacement character, it's nice to keep in mind what is lost in the trade.
I don't understand what's so optimized about about the Elf Druid/Cleric that another class can't do better. If I'm not mistaken you would take the Elf Druid for all the beast form subpar striker stuff right? Are you going for control or strike damage here? I can very easily see an Invoker or a Devout Cleric being a better ranged striker and healer. But then again I don't know what I'm missing about the Elf Druid.
Druids are the best scouts, for one thing. Get right up underneath a rogue's nose and count the nostril hairs. Then laugh---which is the only way the rogue's going to realize the druid's there---before running off too quickly for anyone to do anything about it. Plus, a druid can do all of this while in the shape of a wild pig! (Seriously, they're sneaky. No one with any skill in Nature would be too surprised to turn around and see a wild boar rooting around. Who's to know it's the opposing force's lead element?)
And they have powers and stuff, too. Seriously, though, the exercise here is party optimization, and having the best possible scout build in the game seems to me a pretty defensible position. The fact that it gives me a decent controller who can endure melee is very attractive, too.
Druids are the best scouts, for one thing. Get right up underneath a rogue's nose and count the nostril hairs. Then laugh---which is the only way the rogue's going to realize the druid's there---before running off too quickly for anyone to do anything about it. Plus, a druid can do all of this while in the shape of a wild pig! (Seriously, they're sneaky. No one with any skill in Nature would be too surprised to turn around and see a wild boar rooting around. Who's to know it's the opposing force's lead element?)
And they have powers and stuff, too. Seriously, though, the exercise here is party optimization, and having the best possible scout build in the game seems to me a pretty defensible position. The fact that it gives me a decent controller who can endure melee is very attractive, too.
I think you're over valuing the role of a "scout". I would much rather have a rogue or archer ranger. I like the druid, nothing against it, but I think you can get more from other classes.
I see no nova muscle behind this party; this means you have a Taclord and no one to really milk his bonuses for what they're worth. I would shuffle it up somewhat:
The Party: 1. Human Fighter MC Cleric/Warpriest (Shield Fighter) 2. Longtooth Shifter Ranger MC Fighter/Pit Fighter (TWF) 3. Dragonborn Warlord/Battlelord of Kord (Bravura) 4. Human Wizard/Wizard of the Spiral Tower (Orb/Staff) 5. Elf Ranger MC Rogue/Battlefield Archer (Archery)
Explanations: 1. The Fighter is the strongest Defender right now IMHO; no way I'm leaving home without one. This guy is a pure Defender-type, packing high defense, solid damage, a touch of healing, a bajillion ways to mark people, and the ability to push opponents 1-5 squares back when they attack someone else (depending on his level). Works particularly well with the other party members, as he gives the Wizard space to work his blasts with little risk of hitting allies, he allows the Rangers to get in a 1-on-1, where they can kill just about anything.
2. I built this guy in my Pit Fighter thread. He deals some very devastating damage, is fairly independent in combat (has little need for flanks after Paragon), and has enough defense to hold his own as a backup Defender. Also, a Warlord in the party makes him very, very happy, because there's nothing like nova-buffing a multiattacker.
3. I built this guy in my Dragonborn Nova Bravelord thread. Extra attacks are godly, especially on hard-hitting Melee characters. As such, this Warlord is an absolute beast for nova buffing. Since Battlelord of Kord packs similar benefits to Battle Captain and has flatly superior powers, this is my vote for the Leader, and you cover the face role simultaneously.
4. I built this guy in my Orbizard thread. Take a gander at his defenses; you'll be surprised at how high they actually are. Additionally, a Warlord buff on this guy means the Solo encounter is OVER. 2 turns is all this party needs to rip anything apart (maybe less). Also, he will have the back rank all to himself.
5. I built this gal in my Battlefield Archer thread. She has some durability to stay up front (heck, she has better AC than most of the Melee people), and she has brutal Ranged potential, as well as the full scouting suite. Additionally, if she's close to you, she doesn't miss much (pretty much capped accuracy through all 30 levels).
Methodology: As you can see, this party's motto is hit fast, hit hard, and hit 'em 'till they stop moving. Everyone can get into Melee and survive for a bit (yes, even the Archer and Wizard), so no worries about getting "caught" up front. This party's Strikers and Controller milk that Warlord for what he's worth as far as the buffs are concerned, especially attack buffs. The Warlord and Fighter have healing duties down, and you'll be hard-pressed to find a party better at taking people out quickly. Divine Oracles and running speed are all well and good, but I don't have the room for 'em, and I'm not really gonna miss 'em.
"The best defense is a good offense." -Gen. George S. Patton
I think you're over valuing the role of a "scout".
That's probably true for a lot of games and players. Tongue mildly in cheek, they may go something like this:
DM: The village elder says, "Please help us, goblin bandits have been descending on us for weeks! They're based in the old ruins up the road."
PLAYER: We ride over to the old ruins and kick in the door.
DM: There's 7 goblin ToeGnawers, 3 goblin PooFlingers, and a goblin TaxAuditer in the room. Roll for initiative.
That's fine if that's all you want to do, but if your DM has DM'ed more than 3 times it's because he wants to build a world and have you walk in it. Take him up on his offer, using it thoroughly to your advantage:
DM: The village elder says, "Please help us, goblin bandits have been descending on us for weeks! They're based in the old ruins up the road."
PLAYER: "That's terrible! How many of these goblins are there?"
DM: "Who can say? I don't know that we've seen more than a dozen at any time."
PLAYER: "That's a lot of fanged mouths to feed. Are they stealing your food stores? How many people would you say that the stolen food would feed?"
DM: "Um, about a dozen!"
PLAYER: "Excellent. Is there a ridge or a rise from which we can observe these ruins for a few days, perhaps get an estimate of their strength?"
And so on and so forth. Inhabit the world and many DMs will gratefully hand you the initiative ... then your druid is spending half his time thoroughly debuffing the monsters' mystery via scouting expeditions.
If you don't have use for a premium scout, that's probably not the DM's fault.
I see no nova muscle behind this party; this means you have a Taclord and no one to really milk his bonuses for what they're worth.
Um, I do have an elven Stormwarden who takes umbrage ...
Actually, I would suggest that TacLords need a monster basic melee attack (which I'm also guilty of not having). It's strength clerics who pair up with many novas the best, IMO. One could almost add a rule that TacLords should come paired with Battleragers. I may have to start pondering an unorthodox Battlerager build that can move and sneak a little ...
lordduskblade wrote:
1. Defender - Human Fighter MC Cleric/Warpriest (Shield Fighter) 2. Striker - Longtooth Shifter Ranger MC Fighter/Pit Fighter (TWF) 3. Leader - Dragonborn Warlord/Battlelord of Kord (Bravura) 4. Controller - Human Wizard/Wizard of the Spiral Tower (Orb/Staff) 5. Striker - Half-Orc Ranger MC Fighter/Stormwarden (TWF)
I certainly won't argue that your nova output is very high but you've got one charisma warlord healer and a handful of fighter healing powers for the entire group. That's putting a lot of eggs into the "kill them before they kill you" basket.
lordduskblade wrote:
Battlelord of Kord packs similar benefits to Battle Captain
Oof. Similar as in "a pale shadow thereof"?
lordduskblade wrote:
Take a gander at his defenses
It really isn't that hard to give a wizard decent defenses, this is true; the issue is the HPs behind them. I love Wizard of the Spiral Tower builds for "de-fragiling" stunlockers by giving them some escapability. (Plus, the implement cheese ...) I'm not going to argue that a WotST isn't a perfectly viable controller build.
lordduskblade wrote:
He covers the scout role nicely with his high Dexterity
I would argue that's not enough. The perfect scout would be a Dex-Wis build ideally with buffs for both Stealth and Perception *and* a through the roof speed. (Delivering of information is just as important as gathering it.)
lordduskblade wrote:
As you can see, this party's motto is hit fast, hit hard, and hit 'em 'till they stop moving. Everyone can get into Melee (yes, even the Wizard), so no worries about getting "caught" up front. This party's Strikers and Controller milk that Warlord for what he's worth as far as the buffs, especially attack buffs. Divine Oracles are all well and good, but I don't have the room for one, and I'm not really gonna miss him.
It's a fantastic party, no question. But hitting hard and fast eventually runs smack up against rolling low and terrible. And without a Divine Oracle your nova synergy machine is just begging an exasperated DM to drop a big whammy out of nowhere on you.
My party conceits are seduce the initiative, seize it if seduction doesn't work, if all else fails rely on the Divine Oracle to never yield the initative, then never let one (or seven consecutive) bad rolls dictate your outcome. If you have to run like hell and try again tomorrow, so be it.
Pro's: 1) Leader role there to augment Tactlord 2) Nice array of vs Will attacks 3) Not the only MC it can take 4) Party face 5) The helping it can do with nova's is huge
I think it would be better to have the defenders be controller hybrids than to actually have a controller.
Actually, I would suggest that TacLords need a monster basic melee attack (which I'm also guilty of not having). It's strength clerics who pair up with many novas the best, IMO. One could almost add a rule that TacLords should come paired with Battleragers. I may have to start pondering an unorthodox Battlerager build that can move and sneak a little ...
Try a Barbarian instead. He has a monster Melee basic too, and he can be sneaky while he does it (think Half-Orc, Str/Dex buffing Barb with huge AC and big damage).
Bravura Warlords are better at nova buffing than Clerics because of the simple fact that not only do they make your novas bigger by attack and damage, they make them longer, by adding basic attacks and the like. And we've all seen how one extra attack makes damage much, much better.
Rancid_Rogue wrote:
I certainly won't argue that your nova output is very high but you've got one charisma warlord healer and a handful of fighter healing powers for the entire group. That's putting a lot of eggs into the "kill them before they kill you" basket.
Charisma-based Warlord healing is actually pretty good.
Rancid_Rogue wrote:
Oof. Similar as in "a pale shadow thereof"?
+Int to hit and speed v. +2 to hit, +Cha to damage? And having blatantly superior Paragon Path powers? You may want to re-evaluate your statement. The Battle Captain comes out ahead on Inspiring Word, but the nova buffing form the Battlelord of Kord is better, since these builds need little help in the hitting department. And his healing is better, because he's Charisma-based. IMHO, Tactical has been overrated of late; Bravura is about as good at offensive output (albeit riskier), and they have decent damage of their own.
Rancid_Rogue wrote:
It really isn't that hard to give a wizard decent defenses, this is true; the issue is the HPs behind them. I love Wizard of the Spiral Tower builds for "de-fragiling" stunlockers by giving them some escapability. (Plus, the implement cheese ...) I'm not going to argue that a WotST isn't a perfectly viable controller build.
Uh, so? He's 13 HP behind the Rangers at Paragon. That's pretty darned good for a Wizard, especially considering his AC is actually 1 point higher. I see no squish, especially with a spammable encounter power that dazes.
Rancid_Rogue wrote:
I would argue that's not enough. The perfect scout would be a Dex-Wis build ideally with buffs for both Stealth and Perception *and* a through the roof speed. (Delivering of information is just as important as gathering it.)
Fine, I traded it in for an Elf Archer. Fast as the wind, and he can attack while delivering that information (see Running Shot and other kiting goodies).
Rancid_Rogue wrote:
It's a fantastic party, no question. But hitting hard and fast eventually runs smack up against rolling low and terrible. And without a Divine Oracle your nova synergy machine is just begging and exasperated DM to drop a big whammy out of nowhere on you.
My party conceits are seduce the intiative, seize it if seduction doesn't work, if all fells rely on the Divine Oracle to never yield the initative, then never let one (or seven) bad rolls dictate your outcome. If you have to run like hell and try again tomorrow, so be it.
Your mileage varies, of course.
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That's why accuracy was also a priority; every one of these builds is very accurate as well as damaging (the Archer misses only on a 1 after a certain point, for crying out loud). You'd have to roll absolute garbage for statistically improbable lengths (especially with all the multi-attacking going on) to have a bad Encounter, and you'll still have a decent shot of pulling it out because once you start rolling well, you steamroller through things.
"The best defense is a good offense." -Gen. George S. Patton
How the hell does this optimization work? It's flawed at it's very core and almost completely through.
Seriously, though, the exercise here is party optimization, and having the best possible scout build in the game seems to me a pretty defensible position. The fact that it gives me a decent controller who can endure melee is very attractive, too.
