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5 years ago ::
Jun 06, 2008 - 4:00AM
#61
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Staff if the weakest implement. A bonus to staff is not as good as the bonus to the wand. And fort defense is not as important as initiative. Con and str don't unlock any important feats, Dex unlocks arcane reach (and maybe evasion). If you wan't to call putting 2 points in a stat a dump stat then fine, but you get a lot for those two points, more than you can get elsewhere.
Strangely, as I look at the available magic implements, I think most wizards are going to carry an orb in one hand for the Orb of Imposition, and a staff in the other without focusing on it (they can still use it as an implement) for their magic implement. Because nothing about the orb requires you to make an attack roll with it, and there are some awesome staves. (Wands are rather bland, actually).
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5 years ago ::
Jun 06, 2008 - 4:03AM
#62
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Date Joined:
Jun 26, 2004
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Timlagor adds:
I need to breakdown this a bit to understand:
Being that most spells have no effect if you miss - just when is hitting not really necessary???
Summary: It is essentialy to hit. It is not essential to hit everything
I didn't explain well ..and I'm only fairly sure I'm right about this.
This may be a little disjointed but I'll try to set out all my points.
- Wisdom bonuses get better on the Orb right up to the point where they stop doing anything at all*; Int is a flat 5%.
- Elven Accuracy can be used after you see what you rolled.
- I'm not sure it will transfer completely but in 3.5 it was perfectly viable to lay down an area control spell in the full expectation that come of the enemy would save -indeed sometimes you want some of the enemy to come through unaffected so that they reach your meatgrinder first**.
- In any case targetting multiple foes gives a good chance that you will hit something.
- I'm only talking about giving up a single +1 to hit here. I'm certainly not advocating dumping Int or anything so outlandish.
- Very likely there will be one enemy that you are more concerned with than the others (assuming you can tell who's the main threat just by looking which is by no means guaranteed): you have the Reroll for him***. You also have the Wand for a couple of points later on if you want it.
So:
1) Combining secondary effects if you miss and targetting as many foes as possible so your companions can concentrate on the ones you miss, it's ok to miss sometimes (though obviously 100% reliability would be nice)
2) Elven Accuracy makes the Elf more likely to hit the nastiest thing in the fight with his first shot ...and the Wisdom makes him more likely to keep it out of the combat.
- he also has a little Dex for Initiative bonus and maybe Arcane Reach at some point.
* Anyone looked at how easy it is to reach that point? (not going to happen in the low levels though and many campaigns won't reach Epic)
** I had a rather embarassing situation with calm Emotions not so long ago when all the enemy failed their saves (it was only DC14!).
*** This is what I was referring to about it being really important to hit -even more important than normal.
EDIT: I think I did forget the need for Charisma in that comment though (and I thought Arcane Reach was Dex13 for some reason) so while I stand by b the importance of Wisdom, I may have tried for more 'spiky' attributes than you can actually afford.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 06, 2008 - 5:37AM
#63
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Date Joined:
Nov 21, 2006
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Squirrelloid says:So i considered the matter at some length...(stuff about psychic keyword being added to spells when using bolstering blood ability)
After squirrelloid and I discussing it on another thread (I couldn't get onto these boards all last night) - we came to the agreement that becuase bolstering blood does not mention that the psychic damage is added to the spell - but instead extra damage added after the spell (at least its worded that way in PHB) - the psychic keyword is probably not added to the spell.
Subedei says:
Stuff about unconscious being the most effective status to have your enemies in...
I agree unconscious is the worst status to be in. I was merely pointing out that some other status's put you out of the action too. Circumstantially, different statuses can be just as effective.
Haldrik says:
Wonders why a wizard wouldn't dump dex for a merre +1 Init and +2 to hit once/battle
I woul suggest that the +1 init is OK, as is the +1 to hit once/battle - but as you mention - neither is enough reason not to dump dex.
The main reason I suggest not dumping dex is to qualify for Arcane Reach. Added together with the +1 init and the +1 to hit once/battle - I think this is enough to take it as a tertiary stat.
You can get away with dumping it though - I would probably select less close blasts then.
Squirrelloid adds:
Oh, and TM20? Sleep is a burst 2 at range 20. Not single target.
I have made multiple mistakes on the spell list - but was unable to sign on to edit last night :embarrass
I have little time today or this weekend (family weekend for me) - but will have it all corrected by Monday night at the latest.
Haldrik adds:
Goes from saying dex offers little to dex being useless for wizards. Says that wand sucks and wizard should instead get something good.
Strong language - I think you are overstating your case. Arcane reach is a very good feat only available if dex isn't dumped. Initiative is not useless - in fact it is a high priority for wizards. I would suggest the #2 priority.
To Hit is a huge priority for wizards. By huge I mean HUGE. Bonuses to hit never "suck". Both staff and wand impliment are worse than Orb in the longrun - but since you can have 2 (or 3 - but you only have 2 hands) - I think wand is a nice little bonus at low levels.
Timlagor adds more about wis vs dex, elven accuracy and hitting
I am warming up to the elf at this point. Move 7, elven accuracy, easy qualify for Arcane reach (as with the Eladrin).
I have currently Elf as my third favorite race for wizards - I'm considering moving it over the human (Prepares for the onslaught)
I won't make any changes this weekend - but there may be changes in the race section early next week.
So basically - I get the argument, at this point I'm not disagreeing - but I'm going to think about it more before completely agreeing as well...
Squirrelloid speaks of Staffs vs wands as magic items:
Personally, the Orbs blow me away, and staffs and wands were both a dissapointment.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 06, 2008 - 6:03AM
#64
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Squirrelloid speaks of Staffs vs wands as magic items:
Personally, the Orbs blow me away, and staffs and wands were both a dissapointment.
I went back and reviewed them shortly after that comment. Wands still suck. There are some staves that are hardcore awesome (Staff of Winter, Staff of Power) but most of the rest are pretty awful, and there are some pretty awesome orbs - they just got lost in the dross on my last lookthrough. I think i rated orbs highest on average, but I think the above mentioned staves rank as my personal favorites.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 06, 2008 - 6:06AM
#65
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Date Joined:
Mar 10, 2004
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Action Surge, Treantmonk ... Action Surge.
Elven accuracy is one roll. Action Surge is a bonus to a whole slew of rolls when you use the point to toss out to AoEs.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 06, 2008 - 6:08AM
#66
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Date Joined:
Mar 10, 2004
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The only thing nice about wands is the encounter power. I mean, your wizard doesn't have to craft it right ... you can find a wand with a warlock encounter power in it.
:whistles:
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5 years ago ::
Jun 06, 2008 - 7:36AM
#67
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The only thing nice about wands is the encounter power. I mean, your wizard doesn't have to craft it right ... you can find a wand with a warlock encounter power in it.
:whistles:
Personally, I can't see why a Paragon/Epic caster wouldn't carry around a dozen wands. There are a lot of conditional utility spells out there, and a few extra options for attacks never hurt anyone.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 06, 2008 - 7:48AM
#68
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Date Joined:
Jul 29, 2005
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Expanded Spellbook: A decent feat, but in the builds I’ve played with, not as good as it sounds. You already have a fair bit of versatility in your daily attacks – and the 3rd choice ends up being a little bit redundant. However, if you do get a bit extra ability to prepare for a known situation.
I thought you might be interested in a post I made about this feat here.
I'm not sure if you'll agree, but it sounds like you might like a point I make about wizards (even ones without this feat) having stronger daily attack powers and encounter powers than their non-wizard friends.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 06, 2008 - 11:03AM
#69
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CrG: The only thing nice about wands is the encounter power.
Yeah, but Magic Wand powers dont require a Wand mastery to use, and generally wouldnt benefit from Dex even if they did.
The Wizards Wand mastery is subpar.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 06, 2008 - 11:16AM
#70
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TrM: To Hit is a huge priority for wizards. By huge I mean HUGE. ... I think wand is a nice little bonus at low levels.
So which is it? Is the Wand mastery "huge" or "little". Exactly. Its little. The Wand mastery sucks.
And even you admit, its only a blip on the radar screen "at low levels", after which it become worthless. Note, the other implements offer comparable - actually better - benefits. So the choice of Wand mastery sucks.
Arcane reach is a very good feat only available if dex isn't dumped.
Arcane reach has a Dex prerequisite. This prerequisite doesnt care if the Wizard has 16 Dex or 36 Dex. So the Wizard doesnt actually derive benefit from investing with Dex.
The Dex score simply doesnt synergize with Wizard statistics. It is a painful, laughable mockery to call Dex a "key ability" for the Wizard class.
Strong language - I think you are overstating your case.
In terms of power: In the CharOp forum, "mediocre" means "sucks".
Even you admit Dex sucks, when you concede: "You can get away with dumping it though."
Designing a class with "key ability" that is actually a dump stat ... is just wrong.
Not only does Dex suck for the Wizard, the opportunity costs are far too high. Choosing to invest in Dex means missing out on much better investments, especially Wis.
Dex is a crappy choice.
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