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Dungeons & Dra.. 4e Character Optim.. Guide to maximum possible values(AC, Fort, Ref,...
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Guide to maximum possible values(AC, Fort, Ref, etc.)
2 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2008 - 3:57PM #1
xFallenAngel
Posts: 129
Date Joined: 08/14/06
Currently adjusting for Adventurer's Vault and Martial Power content.

Everyone is welcome to post any additional bonuses for any values I haven't covered(yet).

Important!
I only count permanent(works always) or semi-permanent(works when wearing appropriate Armor, using right weapon/power, things that will usually be the case and that you have control over) bonuses.
Conditional(works when bloodied/not bloodied, works when having combat advantage, things that you either have little to no control over or that only work under very specific circumstances) and temporary(end of next turn, end of encounter, etc.) bonuses are intentionally left out!
Important!


AC

For Light Armor users: 52 (split up into groups of bonuses)

General Bonuses: 34
+10 Base
+15 from level 30
+9 from attribute mod

Equipment Bonuses: 13 OR 12 (Swordmage) OR 11(without shield)
+11 from Elderhide armor +6
+2 from Heavy Shield
OR
+1 from Spiked Shield(for Swordmage with empty off-hand to get full Warding bonus)

Feat Bonuses: 1
+1 from Armor Specialization(Hide)
OR from Shield Specialization - These two don't stack. Feat Bonus!

Item Bonuses: 1 (Wizard only)
+1 from Defensive Staff - requires Wizard.

Class Bonuses: 1 (Wizard) OR 3 (Swordmage)
+1 from Staff of Defense - requires Wizard. Warning! Together with a shield you will have NO enhancement bonus to attack and damage unless you are a WotST(which in turn rules out other PP bonuses)
OR
+3 from Swordmage Warding - requires Swordmage.

Paragon Path Bonuses: 1
+1 from Improved Swordmage Armor - requires Coronal Guard
OR from Armor Optimization - requires Pit Fighter

Epic Destiny Bonuses: 1
+1 from Divine Spark(due to raising the attribute mod to +10) - requires Demigod or Chosen


For Heavy Armor users: 51 (split up into groups of bonuses)

General Bonuses: 25
+10 Base
+15 from level 30

Equipment Bonuses: 22 OR 21 (Swordmage) OR 20 (without shield)
+20 from Godplate +6
+2 from Heavy Shield
OR
+1 from Spiked Shield(for Swordmage with empty off-hand to get full Warding bonus)

Feat Bonuses: 1
+1 from Armor Specialization(Plate)
OR from Shield Specialization - these two don't stack. Feat Bonus!

Class Bonuses: 1 (Wizard) OR 3 (Swordmage)
+1 from Staff of Defense - requires Wizard. Warning! Together with a shield you will have NO enhancement bonus to attack and damage unless you are a WotST(which in turn rules out other PP bonuses)
OR
+3 from Swordmage Warding - requires Swordmage.

Paragon Path Bonuses: 1
+1 from Warpriest's Training - requires Warpriest
OR from Armor Optimization - requires Pit Fighter
OR from Corellon’s Implement(Staff of Defense) - requires Wizard of the Spiral Tower
OR from Improved Swordmage Armor - requires Coronal Guard

Epic Destiny Bonuses: 2 (only for Fighter and Warlord)
+2 from Armor Supremacy - requires Adamantine Soldier


To hit bonus

With a weapon: +36
+15 from level 30
+10 from attribute mod - requires Demigod Epic Destiny
+6 from weapon enhancement
+3 from an appropriate weapon(+3 proficiency weapons)
+1 from Kensei Focus - requires Kensei Paragon Path
+1 Fighter Weapon Talent and appropriate weapon(One-Handed/Two-Handed)
OR Rogue Weapon Talent and appropriate weapon(Dagger)


with an implement: +33
+15 from level 30
+10 from attribute mod - requires Demigod Epic Destiny
+6 from implement enhancement
+1 from Hellfire Blood and appropriate Power selection(Fire/Fear)
+1 from Kensei Focus - requires Kensei Paragon Path and only works for Swordmages, Staff Wizards and WotST


Fort: 52
+10 Base
+15 from level 30
+10 from attribute mod - requires Demigod Epic Destiny and race with Str or Con bonus
+6 from enhancement bonus
+3 from Belt of Vim
+2 from Masterwork Hide or Scale Armor
+2 from Class bonus(Fighter)
+2 from Great Fortitude
+1 from Human or Genasi(Earth and Stormsoul)
+1 from Defensive Staff - requires Wizard with Staff of Defense feature


Ref: 54
+10 Base
+15 from level 30
+10 from attribute mod - requires Demigod Epic Destiny and race with Dex or Int bonus
+6 from enhancement bonus
+3 from Boots of Quickness
+2 from Masterwork Leather Armor
+2 from Class bonus(Rogue)
+2 from Lightning Reflexes
+2 from Heavy Shield
+1 from Human or Genasi(Firesoul)
+1 from Defensive Staff - requires Wizard with Staff of Defense feature


Will: 52
+10 Base
+15 from level 30
+10 from attribute mod - requires Demigod Epic Destiny and race with Wis or Cha bonus
+6 from enhancement bonus
+3 from Circlet of Indomitability
+2 from Masterwork Cloth or Chainmail Armor
+2 from Class bonus(Wizard, Cleric & Swordmage)
+2 from Iron Will
+1 from Human or Eladrin - Eladrin can't get to 30 in Wis or Cha, so their atribute mod is +9 max, see above
+1 from Defensive Staff - requires Wizard with Staff of Defense feature


Comments:
The overall maximum possible AC of 52 for a Light Armor character(and the highest in game as well) goes to the Spiked Shield using Swordmage/Coronal Guard(alternatively Pit Fighter)/Demigod at a highly impressive 52. *

The overall maximum possible AC of 51 for a Heavy Armor character is achieved the easiest by a Fighter/Pit Fighter/Adamantine Soldier.
Warlords can reach the same value, but spend more feats doing so and Swordmages can do it too, but have little reason to waste their resources on Heavy Armor, seeing how they already get the best AC possible in Light Armor.

Non-armor defenses can be pushed sky-high if you're willing to spend nearly 7 million(and the respective item slots) on the three +3 items(Belt of Vim, Boots of Quickness, Circlet of Indomitability) and sacrifice some of your AC by wearing Masterwork armor. Even then though, you won't be able to keep all three of your NAD's top of the line, due to stat restraints(and considering Masterwork only buffs one of them).

In reality, actually going for max AC(or Fort/Ref/Will/etc.) is not always the best thing you could do though(depending on your class and other factors). Buying an 18 in Point-buy is often(again, not always) a massive waste of resources. Similarly, not everyone in creation is a Pit Fighter/Warpriest or Demigod/Adamantine Soldier. Other PP's and ED's exist and offer great benefits as well.
Finally, depending on build, you'll have to spend several feats on proficiencies and specialization, not to mention that you'll have to fulfill their attribute requirements, which will often force you to invest in tertiary stats at best.
Realistically, most characters will end up with an AC(Fort/Ref/Will/+to hit) of a couple points lower than the absolute maximum and that's perfectly fine. The lion's share of your bonuses comes from level and level-appropriate equipment, to make sure you keep competitive. Everything else is mostly(there are, as always, exceptions) a rare few(tightly controlled) +1 bonuses(or +2 from Heavy Shield, which remains constant), to give you an extra edge over the norm.


*If you've paid attention to the AC tables, yes, technically a Wizard can also reach an AC of 52.
This is however, a big, fat, trap.
A build like that not only can't gain an enhancement bonus to attack and damage, but also has to Multiclass into Fighter and take a(for a Wizard) near-useless Paragon Path(Pit Fighter) is pretty much unplayable.
Highest playable AC for Wizard would be Wizard(Staff Implement)/Wizard of the Spiral Tower(= Longsword with Staff bonuses & still use a Shield)/Demigod for AC 50.
You effectively lose 1 AC from taking an actually useful Paragon Path and another 1 since you use a Longsword+Shield and can't benefit from the Defensive Staff bonus as that comes from a specific Magic Staff.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2008 - 4:03PM #2
Titanium_Dragon
Posts: 7,355
Date Joined: 09/26/05

with an implement: +31
+15 from level 30
+10 from attribute mod - requires Demigod Epic Destiny
+6 from implement enhancement


Incorrect. You can take Hellfire Blood (which requires you to be a tiefling) and you gain +1 feat bonus to hit with attacks with the fire or fear keyword.

So the maximum possible is at least +32.

Incidentally, it is fairly trivial for a Pit Fighter to hit the maximum value - he has to spend only two feats to do so (the feat to gain plate proficiency and the feat to gain shield specialization, which is better in every way than plate specialization). A Paladin could also do it with only two feats, a feat to take the appropriate PP plus a feat to specialize in shields. I don't know if it is all that worthwhile, but it is certainly possible to do.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2008 - 4:10PM #3
xFallenAngel
Posts: 129
Date Joined: 08/14/06
See, this is exactly what I meant with "conditional bonuses" above.
+1 only to Fear or Fire Keywords is not acceptable, because it's not in the same league as stuff like +1 with Two-handed weapons(where you'll never use anything else than Two-handed weapons and it works on ALL weapon based powers), but far smaller in scope and doesn't work on all your powers.

You could have at least taken the time to read the Important section.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2008 - 4:16PM #4
Aluman
Posts: 1,802
Date Joined: 05/21/08

xFallenAngel wrote:

See, this is exactly what I meant with "conditional bonuses" above.
+1 only to Fear or Fire Keywords is not acceptable, because it's not in the same league as stuff like +1 with Two-handed weapons(where you'll never use anything else than Two-handed weapons and it works on ALL weapon based powers), but far smaller in scope and doesn't work on all your powers.

You could have at least taken the time to read the Important section.


Actually, Hellfire Blood with an infernal warlock is in the same league as +1 with two handed weapons, over 90% of the infernal warlock powers are Fire based.

Same with wizard's AoE spells most of them have Fire Descriptors.

So before you jump down someone's throat about not reading what you are saying, Maybe You should read the powers that it would apply for.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2008 - 4:25PM #5
Titanium_Dragon
Posts: 7,355
Date Joined: 09/26/05

xFallenAngel wrote:

See, this is exactly what I meant with "conditional bonuses" above.
+1 only to Fear or Fire Keywords is not acceptable, because it's not in the same league as stuff like +1 with Two-handed weapons(where you'll never use anything else than Two-handed weapons and it works on ALL weapon based powers), but far smaller in scope and doesn't work on all your powers.

You could have at least taken the time to read the Important section.


I did read the Important section. If you choose your powers appropriately, this can apply to every single warlock attack power you have save Eldritch Blast, and you may be able to swap that out for the other at-will which gives you the to-hit bonus (as they have a fire at-will and a fear at-will, but they're both pact-based, and pretty much every level has a fire AND a fear one, but at worst they all have one or the other).

It is also quite possible to gain the bonus to almost every attack power you have as a wizard; the only exception is that there is no fire daily wizard power at level 22 or 23. Every single other level allows you to take a fire power.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2008 - 4:28PM #6
ScruffyMcToughy
Posts: 552
Date Joined: 06/04/08
What about 'Combat Anticipation' Paragon Feat? Isn't that another +1 to defense? Maybe I missed something.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2008 - 4:30PM #7
Aluman
Posts: 1,802
Date Joined: 05/21/08

ScruffyMcToughy wrote:

What about 'Combat Anticipation' Paragon Feat? Isn't that another +1 to defense? Maybe I missed something.


It doesn't apply to melee attacks, but short of that its in my mind useful, but it provides 'feat' bonus, thus for any 1 save, the +2 paragon is better.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2008 - 4:33PM #8
Saturno
Posts: 108
Date Joined: 03/24/06

xFallenAngel wrote:

Ref: 46
+10 Base
+15 from level 30
+10 from attribute mod - requires Demigod Epic Destiny
+6 from item
+2 from Class bonus(Rogue)
+2 from Lightning Reflexes
+1 from Human


You forgot Heavy Shield Bonus (+2) and Shield Specialization (+1) who counts for Reflex too...

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2008 - 4:35PM #9
Titanium_Dragon
Posts: 7,355
Date Joined: 09/26/05

Saturno wrote:

You forgot Heavy Shield Bonus (+2) and Shield Specialization (+1) who counts for Reflex too...


Shield Specialization won't add further to it, but the bonus from a Heavy Shield will. So the actual maximum Reflex Defense is at least 48.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2008 - 4:36PM #10
xFallenAngel
Posts: 129
Date Joined: 08/14/06

Aluman wrote:

Actually, Hellfire Blood with an infernal warlock is in the same league as +1 with two handed weapons, over 90% of the infernal warlock powers are Fire based.

Same with wizard's AoE spells most of them have Fire Descriptors.

So before you jump down someone's throat about not reading what you are saying, Maybe You should read the powers that it would apply for.


*Sigh*

Infernal Warlock is one part of a class's power suite.
Fire/Fear Area Spells are one part of the Wizard's spell repertoire.
A Fighter's Weapon Training will always apply, because he'll always use an appropriate weapon.
Not the same league, at least according to my standards.
You'd think when I mention I don't want these kinds of bonuses in my list, I maybe really don't want these in my list...and not just suiggest them anyway.

Oh and I'm pretty sure jumping down someone's throat would have required a more offensive attitude than what I displayed(At least I hope Titanium doesn't feel insulted).
If we're going that way though, I could claim that you are rude for telling me to look at powers which I've obviously all read before ; )

This thread isn't about who is rude or not though, I'd rather keep any bickering out of this and concentrate on collecting meaningful information, thank you.

Titanium Dragon wrote:

I did read the Important section. If you choose your powers appropriately, this can apply to every single warlock attack power you have save Eldritch Blast, and you may be able to swap that out for the other at-will which gives you the to-hit bonus (as they have a fire at-will and a fear at-will, but they're both pact-based, and pretty much every level has a fire AND a fear one, but at worst they all have one or the other).

It is also quite possible to gain the bonus to almost every attack power you have as a wizard; the only exception is that there is no fire daily wizard power at level 22 or 23. Every single other level allows you to take a fire power.


This is of course true, but it requires a narrow focus on power selection, something the Fighter with Weapon Training doesn't really have to bother with so much.
Infernal Warlocks might well want some Con-based Star Pact powers, some of them fit really well and can be used to good effect.
Their are of course some Fear based ones as well there, but you won't be able to cover everything.

ScruffyMcToughy wrote:

What about 'Combat Anticipation' Paragon Feat? Isn't that another +1 to defense? Maybe I missed something.


Doesn't stack with Great Fortitude/Lightning Reflexes/Iron Will due to being a Feat Bonus and would onlyx maybe apply to AC(doesn't work against melee).
Again, for my tastes too situational compared to +1 always in Plate for example. =)

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