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2 years ago ::
Jul 03, 2008 - 5:03PM
#1
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Hello Everyone, This used to contain a lot of information on DPR. However, at some point, Wizards had some difficulties with its database for the boards, and lost all my post. I then moved the conversation to enworld. You can find DPR for lots of interesting builds, and an Excel Spreadsheet to compute DPR. http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-ed … round.htmlSeb
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2 years ago ::
Jul 03, 2008 - 5:06PM
#2
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reserved 2
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2 years ago ::
Jul 03, 2008 - 5:06PM
#3
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1.3: Reorganized some characters and fixed a couple of incorrect stats. Added the Encounter Level 11 block of toons.
1.2: Spreadsheet is more user-friendly. There is room for 200 characters. Also added detailed instructions on how to use the spreadsheet.
Pre-1.2: ancient history.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 03, 2008 - 8:30PM
#4
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I greatly appreciate the fact that you made the spreadsheet itself available to download. Some points
- The defense figures are a bit odd. Average defenses per the DMG are level +12-16; Kerbarian's figures for paragon tier would give level + 14/13/11/11 AC/Fort/Ref/Will. Starting the analysis against a defense of 10 and going to 40 is difficult to justify when the expected defenses for a level 11 fight cluster tightly around 20-26.
- Consider running the table against a defined set of monster defenses - 25/24/22/22, for example, so that the advantage of targeting other defenses is clearer.
- Give the rogues wraithblades. It matters.
- Wizards don't get astral fire benefits on the fire keyword cloud of daggers zone hit; no damage roll means the bonus to a damage roll doesn't apply. Try the burning blizzard/lasting frost route; I believe vulnerability does work with flat damages.
- You're not handling critical hits and curse, hunter's quarry, and sneak attack damage correctly; criticals maximize all damage dice but those additional dice contingent on the critical.
- None of your DPR versus Defense formulas work after download; no idea why just yet. Might be a problem in the macros.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 03, 2008 - 8:47PM
#5
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I greatly appreciate the fact that you made the spreadsheet itself available to download.
- None of your DPR versus Defense formulas work after download; no idea why just yet. Might be a problem in the macros.
Ninja'd! I noticed it too. I uploaded a version that seems to work, but unfortunately I lost compatibility with Orifice 2003 or something. Try downloading again and telling me if it's good?
- Consider running the table against a defined set of monster defenses - 25/24/22/22, for example, so that the advantage of targeting other defenses is clearer.
Well, there's no scaling there, all you get is a single data point per character... I mean, that information is already in the graph, no?
- Give the rogues wraithblades. It matters.
That's useful information. I will read about wraithblades now.
- Wizards don't get astral fire benefits on the fire keyword cloud of daggers zone hit; no damage roll means the bonus to a damage roll doesn't apply. Try the burning blizzard/lasting frost route; I believe vulnerability does work with flat damages.
That's a good idea. I will add that to the spreadsheet.
- You're not handling critical hits and curse, hunter's quarry, and sneak attack damage correctly; criticals maximize all damage dice but those additional dice contingent on the critical.
I've seen people say that but I think yesterday I looked it up and I wasn't sure. What's all the evidence that you maximize quarry?
In any case, that poses an additional problem. If you're a Ranger, and you Twin Strike, and you hit, but you don't crit. Do you use your Hunter's Quarry right away? I'm not sure I want to double the number of Ranger builds in my scenario just to see what happens if you wait for the second hit. 
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2 years ago ::
Jul 03, 2008 - 9:14PM
#6
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Wizards don't get astral fire benefits on the fire keyword cloud of daggers zone hit; no damage roll means the bonus to a damage roll doesn't apply. Try the burning blizzard/lasting frost route; I believe vulnerability does work with flat damages.
Uhm, I was just looking at it, and it seems to me like I should give everyone Frost weapons and Lasting Frost...
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2 years ago ::
Jul 03, 2008 - 9:18PM
#7
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The new spreadsheet is worse; again, not sure why. I only get gibberish on this one.
My proposal to scale against defined defenses was ill-expressed - what I meant was that you could take the expected defenses for paragon tier and scale by level instead of by defense (using level 11 defenses 25/24/22/22 instead of defense 11, level 12 defenses 26/25/23/23 instead of defense 11).
The general rule is that you maximize damage dice on a critical, p 278. The exception are dice rolled due to the crit itself (enhancement d x, usually). As for ranger's... check the text on hunter's quarry. "... you decide which attack to apply the extra damage to after all the attacks are rolled." So if any attack crits, so does the hunter's quarry; if any at least hits, so does the hunter's quarry.
Lasting frost really is that good, beginning in paragon. Wraithblades are always useful, and there are other exceptions - vorpal weapons, holy avengers, artifacts... but frost weapons are great.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 03, 2008 - 9:37PM
#8
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The new spreadsheet is worse; again, not sure why. I only get gibberish on this one.
What's your version of Excel? I got an ominous warning when I tried to save it as an .xls file because the worksheet is too wide...
Maybe I will try to make it tall instead of wide.
My proposal to scale against defined defenses was ill-expressed
I'm preparing a new worksheet where I gave +1 to your attack bonus if you're attacking Reflex, and +3 if Fortitude or Stamina.
The general rule is that you maximize damage dice on a critical, p 278.
Yeah I was reading that just now. I don't know why I wasn't sure. Maybe it's some sort of customer service answer I saw somewhere. I'll see if I can modify the worksheet.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 03, 2008 - 9:41PM
#9
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+3 to reflex or will, +1 to fortitude, if you're handling it this way.
Excel 2003.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 03, 2008 - 11:20PM
#10
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All right, I updated the XLS file and the graph. Now, quarry damage is maximized on crits, and (almost) everyone has a frost weapon and Lasting Frost. This means that the Scimitar Rangers have retrained a heroic feat, in addition to their paragon feat they normally get at 11.
The frost thing makes a HUGE difference. The graph changes completely, and I think that the Rangers benefit the most for it.
As a side note, 10,000 internets if you figure out what the correct formula is for DPR of Lasting Frosts, given n attacks per round.
Notes, try again the XLS file? I hope it runs now.
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