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2 years ago ::
Mar 29, 2011 - 5:48PM
#41
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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To be fair, this reading also adds to your hit chance, as even if you get a double that normally misses, the crit overrides the miss.
Oh yeah, good point. So this reading makes it a decently strong PP feature.
<Ioun> they're apparently making a MolIsCool pp
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2 years ago ::
Mar 29, 2011 - 8:43PM
#42
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Date Joined:
Jan 29, 2008
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Oh... yeah, I totally misread what you had typed Alpha. I thought you were saying that the reading in which a (2,2) did not count as a crit would still yield a hit (which I was clarifying that only a natural 20 is an automatic hit regardless of the attack result). If you are saying that a (2,2) counts as a crit, then indeed it is also raising your to-hit bonus by default. Reading comprehension fail.
A note to all who think I am being aggressive or angry- 99% of the time, I do not intend to be. I apologize if you think I am attacking you, odds are very strong that I am not. The only exceptions are when people become extremely uncivil to me, and even then I usually ignore them. I think it is very obvious when I am really mad; if I just seem generally abrasive, it is a reflection of my thought process rather than a state of emotion. I have the greatest respect for those who can debate rationally, even if we come to different conclusions.  I am Blue/White Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.I'm both orderly and rational. I value control, information, and order. I love structure and hierarchy, and will actively use whatever power or knowledge I have to maintain it. At best, I am lawful and insightful; at worst, I am bureaucratic and tyrannical.
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2 years ago ::
Mar 29, 2011 - 8:50PM
#43
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Date Joined:
Jul 15, 2010
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math hurt brain
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2 years ago ::
Mar 30, 2011 - 6:27AM
#44
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Date Joined:
Oct 20, 2009
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Thanks guys, that clears things up quite a bit. Now the question is to simply go about choosing whether its better to take a jagged weapon and stack it with the PP for a 22-23.25% chance to crit (depending on your DMs interpretation) or simply take a stronger overall PP that gives a 19-20 crit and combine it with a better weapon (rending, bloodiron, etc).
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2 years ago ::
Mar 30, 2011 - 7:59AM
#45
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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If you roll double 2s you just miss. It's the same as if you have a 19-20 crit feature, roll a natural 19, and don't hit the target's defense (somehow). You just flat out miss. No effects that trigger on criticals happen, as it's not a crit. It's a miss. If you attacked with a daily power that said Miss: Half damage, you would not get half of maximized damage. You'd get half of normally-rolled damage.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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2 years ago ::
Mar 30, 2011 - 8:51AM
#46
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More specifically, the problem is that it's not an automatic hit, so it resolves as a miss before you get to the stage where you'd check if it was a critical hit or not.
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2 years ago ::
Mar 30, 2011 - 11:14AM
#47
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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Thanks guys, that clears things up quite a bit. Now the question is to simply go about choosing whether its better to take a jagged weapon and stack it with the PP for a 22-23.25% chance to crit (depending on your DMs interpretation) or simply take a stronger overall PP that gives a 19-20 crit and combine it with a better weapon (rending, bloodiron, etc).
It's worth noting that while that feature isn't terribly good if your DM doesn't let you crit on a 2, the level 16 feature is fairly strong, assuming you don't have something else granting you free action attacks on your turn regularly.
<Ioun> they're apparently making a MolIsCool pp
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2 years ago ::
Mar 30, 2011 - 11:31AM
#48
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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Why would the DM "let" you crit on a 2? The numbers-other-than-20-that-might-be-crits rule would prevent it unless you coincidentally hit on a 2 (which does happen). There is no wiggle room or debate here: there's an explicit, clear, and simply stated rule that covers exactly this case.
As far as the math for ardent champion, the increase in critical rate is:
(hitchance-.05)*.05
If you have a 65% hit chance (hits on an 8) then you get an increase in critical rate (% of d20 rolls that result in crits) of 3%.
A bit of explanation - hitchance is straightforward, and is the chance the number that you double-roll will result in a hit. The subtraction eliminates a natural 20 - you already crit, so you don't get more crits when you roll double 20s. The multiplying by .05 is the chance that your second roll will be the same number as the first, which is 1/20. If you expand your crit range, then the Ardent Champion feature increases your critical rate by less. If a 19 is already a crit, double 19s being crits does not increase your critical rate. The general form is:
(hitchance-critchance)*.05
So, 65% hit rate with 19-20 crits means a 2.75% increase in criticals. Not as high as 3%, but still good.
65% hit rate with 18-20 crits (somehow) means a 2.5% increase in criticals.
Note that this means that as your hit chance goes up, you get more criticals. A 95% hit chance (hit on a 2) gets a whopping 4.5% increase over crit-on-20. Note that 5% is what normal classes get when they go to 19-20 crits (assuming 19s hit, which is a fair assumption).
For avengers in particular, though, their double roll leads to increased critical rates anyway.
Avenger critical rate: (1-nocrit*nocrit)
20 crit: (1-.95*.95) = 9.75%
19 crit: (1-.9*.9) = 19%
18 crit: (1-.85*.85) = 27.75%
Add the increased critical rate from the Ardent Champion formula above to these numbers, and you'll get the percentage chance for you to roll your two d20s and get a crit. Using an example:
20 crit Avenger who hits on a 6 (75% hit rate) = 9.75%+3.5% = 13.25%
19-20 crit Avenger who hits on a 6 (75% hit rate): = 19%+3.25% = 22.25%
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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2 years ago ::
Mar 30, 2011 - 11:41AM
#49
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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Why would the DM "let" you crit on a 2? The numbers-other-than-20-that-might-be-crits rule would prevent it unless you coincidentally hit on a 2 (which does happen). There is no wiggle room or debate here: there's an explicit, clear, and simply stated rule that covers exactly this case.
Because of Rule 0, if nothing else? This debate has been had in several places at several points in the past though. Either case is pretty easy to treat mathematically, so we don't really need to go into it here (and I'm actually in the camp that thinks that the "true" reading is that you need to have hit with it, so you're preaching to the choir anyway).
<Ioun> they're apparently making a MolIsCool pp
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2 years ago ::
Mar 30, 2011 - 11:43AM
#50
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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Rule 0 doesn't mean "There are no rules." DM intervention on this level results in capricious and fickle decisions, like "No, you just don't hit. No, I don't care you rolled a 19, and the 15 you rolled before hit, and he didn't use any powers."
The point of rules is so that the DM doesn't just make everything up.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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