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Any power that uses multiple weapons is assumed to include the drawing in the power action ...is there some way to get multiple attacks with shuriken in a round this doesn't cover?

I suppose there's APs... but you can have two in hand at the start of the turn and draw another as your minor action still leaving you the two attacks and a move.

not that QD isn't useful but it doesn't seem essential to me.

A few mistakes to be pointed out:
Every rogue should have backstabber. There is no reason to have it that doesn't apply equally to both kinds of rogue.

The artful dodger build incorrectly suggests a wizard multiclass.

Both types of rogue fare equally well in melee or at range.

Feats that apply to perception, and the perception skill itself are all heavily devalued. Note that even if you're stealthed, you don't get a suprise round unless you spot your enemy. Tracking and trap finding can be very useful too.

Defensive mobility is just as effective for an artful as a brutal - statistically it may be more so. It's unlikely that an artful dodger will be unhittable or even close to it.

Far throw is rated as strictly inferior to far shot. Considering how much you should be investing into light blades (and how much you shouldn't be investing into crossbows) I really don't understand the weighting here.

You never note that quickdraws initiative penalty doesn't stack with improved initiatives.

Brutal scoundrels can often use charging to get a good flank - charging doesn't require straight line movement for the round, so it's perfectly permissable to move at full speed past a foe and then charge at him from beyond him.

Press the advantage means that a crit can allow you to maneuver for a round without needing to worry about getting CA. Since you crit MORE as you increase in levels, this can only be good.

Surprise Knockdown is about giving your buddies CA - your foe will almost never stay prone until your next action. In that particular sense it's strictly worse than Press the advantage.

Having a good initiative bonus doesn't stop you from rolling a 1 and losing initiative - your bonus will be good, but not "I can roll a 1 and still always go first" good. In terms of averages, it gives a +3 to initiative that stacks with improved initiative, but obviously the mitigation of bad rolls is much more valuable than that.

Light blade precision is OK. It's hardly the first choice on the tier though.

I wonder how well lightning arc would go with a lightning dagger and a daggermaster. All your bonus damage will transfer across to the second target, and that will include sneak attack and any multipliers for the power you use. Technically that turns a crit from "max your damage" to "double your damage, including bonuses" which would mean a higher average.

Point blank shot means that you can stay in some serious cover/concealment and shoot foes with no penalty. I'd not rate it high, but not as low as a single star.

Sieze the moment is often passed over because people don't closely read the feat. It gives you CA against foes in the surprise round AND first round if your foes initiative is lower than yours. IOW - If you are not surprised by a foe, you can end up with two round of CA against him even if he is not surprised. If you ARE surprised, you can still end up with one round of CA.

Flanking maneuver is just as good for a brutal scoundrel as an artful dodger. Possibly more so because the brutal scoundrel tends to not be able to move his foes into better positions as easily.

The multiclass stuff makes the mistake of thinking that a 13 in a stat is difficult to achieve. It's not. It also doesn't even consider paragon paths.

Initiate of the Faith: If you have the stats for it, and want religion, it's as good as warlord. So a couple of big ifs. Divine oracle looks like it could be pretty decent actually - only one of it's powers requires an attack, and the others are "grant someone a free crit" and "+5 to all d20 rolls for a turn". It also lets you reroll initiative.

Student of the Sword: +1 to hit for a round (which could easily be that round that you burn two dailies and an action point).
If you're a brute roge, the paragon paths can be pretty tempting.
Rapier or katar kensei is pretty much the way to go for raw damage if you intend to not be a dagger rogue. Iron vanguard and swordmaster could both be good too, for slightly less offensive reasons.

Soldier of the Faith : The only requirement to the mark is that you attack your target each round. The fact that you're on the far side of the battlefield using a ranged weapon and hiding after each attack (or using deft strike to step 2, attack and take full cover again) doesn't change that. You'll be smacking your foe with a -2 to attacks and doing a small chunk of radiant damage to it each round (unless it doesn't attack, which is possibly even better). The class has both charisma and strength-based attacks, so both rogue paths can find things that might be useful, and that continues up to paragon paths - brute and artful rogues may find something nice there. Just remember that you don't have to be an honorable paladin and there are plenty of ways the paladin and rogue powers can synergise, just like the mark.

Warrior of the Wild: Great for short term stuff (though note the errata - only 2 rounds of quarry damage now). You cannot get into any of the ranger paragon paths.

Pact Initiate : The basic feat is pretty bad - the only powers that will be good are eyebite and eldritch blast. Eyebite can't get you a sneak attack just so you know. Eldritch blast is not that much better than a regular ranged attack. Things are a bit better later on for artful dodgers, but unfortunately you're barred from all the paragon paths.

Student of Battle: good for a brute rogue. More healing is great. The paragon paths are a bit meh - nothing really stands out as good for a rogue. It's a crying shame that sword marshal requires heavy blades.

Arcane Initiate: Intelligence is probably your most dumped stat, and everything wizardy needs it. Further, the wizardy feats usually restrict their usage to wizard powers only, and so do the paragon paths. Further, none of the paragon paths give anything worthwhile to a rogue. Rogue/wizards are really a dead loss.

Saeviomagy wrote:

Brutal scoundrels can often use charging to get a good flank - charging doesn't require straight line movement for the round, so it's perfectly permissable to move at full speed past a foe and then charge at him from beyond him.

Do you mean permissable aside from the rules? Read from the text on page 287, "... and you move directly to the nearest square from which you can attack the enemy."

Saeviomagy wrote:

Warrior of the Wild: Great for short term stuff (though note the errata - only 2 rounds of quarry damage now). You cannot get into any of the ranger paragon paths.

A recent response from customer service stated that you could indeed take a ranger paragon path. They said that had been left out in editing and it would be the only one of the eight that you couldn't if it was played as written. Take that for what it is worth.

Timlagor wrote:

Any power that uses multiple weapons is assumed to include the drawing in the power action ...is there some way to get multiple attacks with shuriken in a round this doesn't cover?

Again, this comes from customer service so whatever, but there was a response that said when using non-magic shuriken, you would need the Quick Draw feat to hit multiple enemies.

Favored Enemy wrote:

Do you mean permissable aside from the rules? Read from the text on page 287, "... and you move directly to the nearest square from which you can attack the enemy."

He meant you could move with your move action and charge back with your standard which is perfectly fine.

Woah, I see what you are saying. Holy cow! I didn't even know you could move your full movement and then charge and attack. I thought a charge was your move and standard actions. Okay, so with that in mind, it looks like if you charge, you can do no exploits, right? That is kind of weak to run one direction, do a double-back, and charge another. But, hey, dem's da rulez.

Favored Enemy wrote:

Woah, I see what you are saying. Holy cow! I didn't even know you could move your full movement and then charge and attack. I thought a charge was your move and standard actions. Okay, so with that in mind, it looks like if you charge, you can do no exploits, right? That is kind of weak to run one direction, do a double-back, and charge another. But, hey, dem's da rulez.

Right ... no exploits, just a basic attack. Moving then charging often allows you to get in an attack with flanking where just a move and attack would not let you attack with CA. It's a handy tactic in a rogues arsenal.

Again, this comes from customer service so whatever, but there was a response that said when using non-magic shuriken, you would need the Quick Draw feat to hit multiple enemies.

Which would make QD a pretty essential feat at low levels??? Or would it???

pogminky wrote:

Which would make QD a pretty essential feat at low levels??? Or would it???

If you believe the CS ruling QD is essential for using blinding barrage until your get your first magic weapon (Probably some time during level 1 or level 2). Assuming your build wouldn't otherwise want QD I'd recommend either retraining out of QD the level after you get a magic weapon or waiting until after you get a magic weapon before retraining into blinding barrage (assuming you want it's the level 1 daily you want).

pogminky wrote:

Which would make QD a pretty essential feat at low levels??? Or would it???

Not essential, or IMO even worthwhile.

Usually you'd thrown 2-3 per round max, even that being uncommon. That would be with blinding or an action point (both would be the peak). And you can readily carry one in each hand and minor to draw a third already.

Not to mention it seems that blinding barrage already takes into account the draw action.

At this level you have so few feats (if not one!), and the marginal benefit of QD is outstripped by all the other good rogue feats. You will get a 1st level +1 weapon hopefully by 2nd level, then it's 100% obsolete.

CS is just flat wrong on this. The PHB explicitly says that the drawing of extra thrown weapons is included in any power that requires multiple thrown weapons. [unless I'm making things up again...]

It says that only in regards to the load times for weapons that you reload.

I like Quick Draw, since it lets me pull out and use a potion as a minor action instead of 2 minor actions. Applying a poison is only a standard instead of a minor and standard. If I find I'm not using minor actions very much, I might change my mind, however as of now, and with the intention of creating a dagger throwing rogue, I think it's definitely worth it.

Daag

you still can rip off two (or three if you spend an Action Point) attacks with an additional die of damage.

In reference to hunters quarry, you can only apply the damage once per round like SA, so it's still only twice even with an action point.

Damn. Oh well.

In any case, updated a bit.

Updated the Strategy section.

Timlagor wrote:

9) Pickpocketing sucks
The DC for pickpocketing is based on target's level while your skill only goes up every two levels

Check the errata. They fixed this.

As an aside, the advice about daggermaster versus shadow assassin for melee-based artful dodgers seems wrong. Why? Melee-based artful dodgers take a lot of opportunity attacks that miss, multiple ones per turn sometimes. For example, every time you use deft strike in combat against a normal foe, you will take an opportunity attack. Shadow assassin riposte means they're taking dex to damage each and every time this occurs, so typically 6 damage at level 11 a pop. Ignoring powers, the crit multiplier on a dagger means 4 damage compared with 2.5 average non-crit, so a gain of 1.5 damage over a non-crit per weapon. This means you need to get an extra crit on a 4 weapon effect for every time an opponent would miss you to break even damage-wise.

A normal dagger fighter crits 5%. A daggermaster crits 15%, so 10% more. The additional crit multipliers means that daggermaster critical range is granting you, on average, .15 damage per weapon additional damage over a normal dagger fighting rogue. Damage wise, two weapon fighting is more effective. The reason daggermaster is useful is not because the increased average damage per weapon due to crtis. Daggerfighter is a great feature because of the on crit effects that it gives you and its nice powers.

I am fairly sure that for melee based artful dodgers, the top dpr choice is shadow assissin. The more attacks that miss you per round, which is exactly what artful dodgers, shadow assissins, and halflings specialize in, the higher the relative dpr.

A shadow assassin artful dodger can (fairly, but not completely) safely offer opportunity attacks to everyone in the area, and this does work very nicely if they take them.

The general problem is that 1) sneak attack damage maximizes on a critical hit and 2) light blade mastery takes strength.

The combination means that rogues either go brutal scoundrel, go daggermaster, give up on a wider crit range, or get very, very, MAD.

Additionally, shadow assassin's riposte works very nicely if the monsters take those offered OAs; smart foes won't repeat after the first few learning experiences. That protects the shadow assassin's mobility fine, but means no more bonus damage. The daggermaster's widened crit range isn't similarly dependant on foes obligingly putting themselves on the block.

pmurray@bigpond.com wrote:

Check the errata. They fixed this.

Check the date I posted that :P

There's even a later comment from me mentioning the Errata.

furious_kender wrote:

For example, every time you use deft strike in combat against a normal foe, you will take an opportunity attack.

Not if you're careful to shift first. Which you should be.

Notes wrote:

The general problem is that 1) sneak attack damage maximizes on a critical hit and 2) light blade mastery takes strength.

A daggermaster will crit 15% of the time. A normal rogue 5%, so 10% difference. Assuming the backstabber feat, on average daggermaster crit range adds .25 damage (2.5 * .1) per sneak attack dice, so 1.25 damage at level 21. In addition, it adds on average .15 damage per weapon effect (1.5 *.1). So at level 21, with 5d8 sneak attack damage and 5d4 attack, you're getting a meagre 1.25+.75, or 2 average damage. Weapon focus gives you 3 average damage per hit at this level.

It is the powers of daggermaster that make it worthwhile, not the crit range addition, which is weaker, by itself than weapon focus.

This is assuming, that you're always hitting however. The more you miss, the more the improved crit range will pay off. For example, at level 21, hitting on an 11, weapon focus gives you 3 damage per hit. With 5d8 and 5d4 (this means 20 additional damage on a crit) light blade mastery gives you 2 damage per hit (20*.1) over a normal rogue and daggermaster crit range gives you 4 damage per hit (20*.2) over a normal rogue.

A halfing shadow assassin at level 21 should have a +10 opportunity attack ac and do 7-8 dex damage per time missed. Getting missed every other round means the halfling would be doing 3.5-4 damage per round....which is as much as the daggermaster crit range adds against a mob you hit 50% of the time, with a 5d4 attack and 5d8 sneak attack.

Again, it's the powers of daggermaster in combination with the crit range that make it nice. The crit range itself isn't terribly impressive except against very hard to hit mobs. In 3.5 crit range rocked the house, but it 4th ed, it seems really weak, especially with a weak weapon like a dagger.

Vikingkingq wrote:

Not if you're careful to shift first. Which you should be.

Deft strike allows you to move, not shift, before an attack. This movement can cause opportunity attacks. This will leave you adjacent to an enemy unless you move away with your move action after the attack. Shifting after the attack means that the enemy can shift on their turn and get you without causing opportunity attacks. In addition, this attack will be without any opportunity attack defense bonus.

furious kender, don't forget that magic weapons add extra damage on a critical hit. That makes the daggermaster's extended crit range even more tasty. It also opens up a lot of feats that start to look better with an extended crit range.

Also, Vikingkingq is aware that Deft Strike does not shift.

furious_kender wrote:

Deft strike allows you to move, not shift, before an attack. This movement can cause opportunity attacks. This will leave you adjacent to an enemy unless you move away with your move action after the attack. Shifting after the attack means that the enemy can shift on their turn and get you without causing opportunity attacks. In addition, this attack will be without any opportunity attack defense bonus.

I dont think anyone is saying that you use deft strikes movement to shift. You can use deft strike to move in and attack, then either shift 1 space away or preferably use any of a number of move action utility powers (Tumble is the prime example) to shift out of danger.

That said, I tend to think deft strike is used more often with ranged attacks than melee. Or at least thats been the case with my group.


PS: IM BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACK!

Favored Enemy wrote:

furious kender, don't forget that magic weapons add extra damage on a critical hit. That makes the daggermaster's extended crit range even more tasty.

Assuming a level 21 frost weapon, this would add on average 11 damage per crit. So 1.1 damage over a normal rogue if you always hit and 2.2 damge if you hit on an 11. With devastating critical, you add on an additional .55 or 1.1 damage over a normal rogue if you are missing half the time. With both, you are looking at 2.2 damage if you always hit and 3.3 damage over a normal rogue. On crit additional damage effects aren't particularly stunning.

Favored Enemy wrote:

It also opens up a lot of feats that start to look better with an extended crit range.

Agreed.

At the same time, a lot of the defensive and movement feats look a lot better when they add to your dpr.

Hmm... That does sound like some rather weak damage. It seems you are right. I was thinking of that knockdown feat but I guess it is better to stay away from those feats that require a crit, even with an 18-20 range. Would you say?

furious_kender wrote:

Deft strike allows you to move, not shift, before an attack. This movement can cause opportunity attacks. This will leave you adjacent to an enemy unless you move away with your move action after the attack. Shifting after the attack means that the enemy can shift on their turn and get you without causing opportunity attacks. In addition, this attack will be without any opportunity attack defense bonus.

I'm saying that you could shift, then Deft Strike to move to their flank then attack.

Favored Enemy wrote:

Hmm... That does sound like some rather weak damage. It seems you are right. I was thinking of that knockdown feat but I guess it is better to stay away from those feats that require a crit, even with an 18-20 range. Would you say?

The crit effect feats give a fairly small gain, but the size of their effect gets larger against harder to hit foes. I was comparing a daggermaster versus a normal rogue with the same build, so the on crit feats do make a difference, they just aren't overpowering or obviously better than the other path options which was the point I was trying to make.

Daggermaster is a very good paragon path, but its the overall synergy of the path that makes it so good. For example, the expanded crit range plus critical opportunity and dagger advantage are great synergy. Making a d4 into a d6, gives you one extra damage a hit and another 1 extra damage on a crit. All of this, together, makes it a good path. It's not simply the expanded crit range that does it

Shadow assassin also has great synergy, but it's not as obvious.

That being said, what paragon path is better depends on the concept and build. Neither is the obviously better choice.

Non-defensively minded melee rogues, such as most brutal scoundrels, should go daggermaster
Ranged rogues should go shadow assassin.
Defensively minded melee rogues, such as artful dodgers, could go either daggermaster or shadow assassin depending on how they want to play. If you attempt to draw opportunity attacks, which is a type of rogue that hasn't even been discussed yet, your dpr might very well improve.

However, unlike in previous editions, the designers really planned things out mathmatically this time. There are few things in 4th edition that are stupidly good. Most dpr feats give you on average 1-2 damage extra per hit, and the ones that do this aren't always obvious:

Backstabber: 1.05-1.15 increase per sneak attack die
Weapon focus: 1-3
Light blade mastery: 1+
Two-weapon fighting: 1
Devastating critical: minimum .275-.825, to a maximum 5.5 for impossible to hit mobs. Should give .275 to 2 or so average dps deponding on your crit range and their AC.
Power attack: can raise or actually lower your average damage. Such as if you're a level 21 daggermaster thats hit on an 11, doing 2d4+11+5d8 so 49.65damage on average. Power attack gives you 6 damage per hit and takes away 20% of 49.65 for a net LOSS of 4 damage. It's best for characters with high to hits and low damage output.

Basically, if a feat gives you over 1 extra damage on average per hit you should try to work it in. The others really depend on whether there is something better. As with most things in 4th ed, most feat choices are about taste because most of them give a very small gain. So if you can't work in one of the feats, such as light blade mastery, it's really not a huge loss.

Awesome! You really know your stuff. Do you think you could comment on how to improved my rogue build? Any advice would be helpful, no matter how small. I haven't gotten much feedback on how to actually improve it. Thanks!
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1054646

Vikingkingq wrote:

Sneak Attack and Strategy
The Art of Flanking

The key ability here is Deft Strike, which allows you to move two squares before attacking. If you plan it carefully, you should be able to move half-way or wholly around your enemy. For example, if you're positioned like this:
X X X X
X E X X
P F R X

If you move up and diagonally to the right, then diagonally up and left, you're flanking with the Paladin; if you move directly up and then diagonally to the left, you're flanking with the Fighter. All this without actually using a movement - movement just makes it easier to flank enemies. In any case, the key here is abusing the diagonal to move to flank while moving as little as possible, which is important for avoiding OAs.

There seems to be a decent amount of talk of rogues starting from hiding, attacking and getting back into hiding. Similarly in using things like deft strike to move and avoid OAs.

I'm trying to figure out if its a 4th Ed thing I'm missing, but in the example listed in the guide above, how does the Rogue (R) moving diagonal up-right not provoke an AO.

Also, while I see how a hidden rogue can deft strike to move two and get Combat Advantage by striking with stealth, I don't see how he moves away to cover without provoking the AO again. Is there something I'm missing, or is it just the thought its okay to sometimes provoke an AO?

Woogie wrote:

I'm trying to figure out if its a 4th Ed thing I'm missing, but in the example listed in the guide above, how does the Rogue (R) moving diagonal up-right not provoke an AO. ... Is there something I'm missing, or is it just the thought its okay to sometimes provoke an AO?

The rogue does indeed provoke an OA, but I, for one, am of the mind that it's sometimes okay to provoke. For instance, in the Deft Strike flanking example there, the enemy is next to a fighter. If that fighter has marked the target, then the fighter gets a free basic attack on the enemy if it tries to attack the rogue, which could soften it up a bit, allowing the Sneak Attack to finish it offl. Additionally, the mark is making the OA less likely to hit, and if the rogue is a halfling or Dodger or has Defensive Mobility, it'll only get worse.

Naturally, this will backfire sometimes, but it can quite often be worth the risk.

All you need to do is shift one square then use deft strike to move into flanking position. No OAs given.

Favored Enemy wrote:

All you need to do is shift one square then use deft strike to move into flanking position. No OAs given.

I don't think you can use Deft Strike to shift. Is there a ruling on that? The language is 'You can move 2 squares before you attack'. It doesn't say shift or move 2 squares.

Regardless, the example probably should be better documented for the guide, and say 'By moving diagonal up right and then diagonal up left, it generates only one AO instead of the two attacks that would be generated by moving straight up two.' or something similar. The example doesn't show you're taking any AO.

Okay, here is question #2. Of what use is jumping? I see there are maneuvers that let you jump and go > your move (I presume it means that if you go over your move you don't fall, like a standard jump), and others to let you double jump, but does jumping actually provide any tactical advantage (beyond going over obstalces).

Woogie wrote:

I don't think you can use Deft Strike to shift. Is there a ruling on that? The language is 'You can move 2 squares before you attack'. It doesn't say shift or move 2 squares.

This is almost getting comical. First, you shift away as a move action. Then you attack with Deft Strike as a standard action and move into position. There you are; no OAs.

Favored Enemy wrote:

This is almost getting comical. First, you shift away as a move action. Then you attack with Deft Strike as a standard action and move into position. There you are; no OAs.

Fair enough. That would work. :P And I did misread the prior poster since that is what he wrote too.

I have to admit I was relatively certain such were the rules, but figured I could be wrong since the text prior to the example was: The key ability here is Deft Strike, which allows you to move two squares before attacking. If you plan it carefully, you should be able to move half-way or wholly around your enemy. For example, if you're positioned like this:

So makes it sound like those two moves are both part of the Deft Strike.

Just wanted to a) make sure I wasn't missing something, and b) if I wasn't that the Guide's language was cleaned up a bit to better describe to folk what was happening.

Thanks

furious_kender wrote:

A daggermaster will crit 15% of the time. A normal rogue 5%, so 10% difference. Assuming the backstabber feat, on average daggermaster crit range adds .25 damage (2.5 * .1) per sneak attack dice, so 1.25 damage at level 21. In addition, it adds on average .15 damage per weapon effect (1.5 *.1). So at level 21, with 5d8 sneak attack damage and 5d4 attack, you're getting a meagre 1.25+.75, or 2 average damage. Weapon focus gives you 3 average damage per hit at this level.

If you have a 60% hit rate:

A) Rogue with Weapon Focus (+3)
B) Rogue with Daggermaster (18-20 crit range)

Both with +5 Frost Daggers.

10/12 hits weapon focus deals 3 damage more
2/12 hits daggermaster deals between ~35 and ~39.5 extra damage (2*1.5 (2W) + 5*3.5 (SA) + 5*3.5 (5d6 Crit Dmg) - 3) or (5*1.5 (5W), rest same)

Call it 3.75 extra average damage per hit ((75 - 30) / 12)

So, that's quite a lot more average damage. You pegged the sneak attack at 2.5 instead of 3.5 and failed to take into account extra damage from critical from the weapon and averaged the extra crit damage over misses as well, but listed weapon focus for hits.

Of course, the daggermaster obviously _also_ has weapon focus, but I figured it was worth clarifying that it's more damage than shown or compared. Especially if the critical die for the weapon is higher (vicious would add almost another 2 avg per hit).

I suspect this is one of those things you need to decide based on the group and DM - if you don't get OAed a lot, the shadow assassin works out less well. If you get OAed at every chance you may want to intentionally soak up attacks like mad and really cut into folks. First action of every combat? I run past all the minions so they can die

Keithric wrote:

First action of every combat? I run past all the minions so they can die

That's when the rules lawer jumps in and says, "Minions never take damage from a miss. It doesn't specify an opponent's miss."

Keithric wrote:

vicious would add almost another 2 avg per hit).

A rogue with a vicious weapon will deal less average damage than a rogue with a frost dagger and lasting frost/wintertouched unless the target has cold resistance

Haynen wrote:

A rogue with a vicious weapon will deal less average damage than a rogue with a frost dagger and lasting frost/wintertouched unless the target has cold resistance

It depends what they take with those two spare feats, doesn't it?

Yeah, I'd assume that lasting frost / wintertouched is just something that _every_ rogue does... if you have that option. Some DMs won't allow it or might not allow magic item rituals or all sorts of things.

And honestly I think the 99% Frost ratio on Roguedom will eventually get errata-ed, where eventually is likely easily by the time I've got my daggermaster to 21

Keithric wrote:

Yeah, I'd assume that lasting frost / wintertouched is just something that _every_ rogue does... if you have that option. Some DMs won't allow it or might not allow magic item rituals or all sorts of things.

And honestly I think the 99% Frost ratio on Roguedom will eventually get errata-ed, where eventually is likely easily by the time I've got my daggermaster to 21

I guess im the 1% useing wraithblades then? :P

Favored Enemy wrote:

It depends what they take with those two spare feats, doesn't it?

Keithric specified Frost daggers in the example

Theres really not a lot of reason to use frost daggers if you aren't going to use lasting frost/wintertouched.

If you are not going to take those feats you are better off going wraithblades which has a higher avg damage than vicious and frost with lasting frost/wintertouched

Haynen wrote:

Keithric specified Frost daggers in the example

Theres really not a lot of reason to use frost daggers if you aren't going to use lasting frost/wintertouched.

If you are not going to take those feats you are better off going wraithblades which has a higher avg damage than vicious and frost with lasting frost/wintertouched

Yes, I'm aware. What I mean is that he is comparing a magic weapon to a different magic weapon and two feats. That is an unbalanced comparison.

Aoihasu wrote:

I guess im the 1% useing wraithblades then? :P

Just by using a weapon that isn't in the PHB I think you fall into the 1% range, at the moment.

Haynen wrote:

Keithric specified Frost daggers in the example

And I was responding to someone else's example that had faulty math where they used frost daggers. So I kinda had to

In truth, wraithblades aren't that much better than vicious - at least not when you consider you can often (3 level stretches at a time) get +1 enhancement better by going vicious instead.

So, in a 21st level example, it'd be +4 wraithblade vs +5 vicious for instance, with 4d6 + 5d8 = 36.5 extra damage on crit vs +1 more to hit and damage on every attack and 5d12 = 32.5 extra damage on crit.

I'd totally like a wraithblade as a daggermaster, though, yes At least, if I wasn't allowed to use frost or didn't want to spend the two feats for some reason. Once martial power comes out, those two feats might actually even really work out.

Vikingkingq wrote:

Weapons:

Shuriken/Crossbows/Daggers
In terms of ranged weapons, your Shuriken is doing a D6 and you should have plenty of ammo since you buy them in bunches of 5. Daggers are less damage, but you pick up +1 to hit. Hand crossbow is really lack-luster; the full crossbow does a bit more damage and a bit more range, but the only +2 to hit is a turnoff for me. Verdict: bring along both shuriken and daggers, use the Shuriken for ranged AOE where ammo becomes a factor, use the dagger for single-target attacks to pick up that +1 to hit.

You know, just to test this theory, I took WWAD's spreadsheet and added a page that has just the rogue weapons (lightblades, crossbows, and sling). I also updated that particular page to adjust for the +1 to daggers and the higher damage die for shuriken. I was surprised to see the dagger at the bottom of the damage list, even then. (Like, not even the bottom of the ranged list, but the whole thing.)

Heroic
Crossbow > Shuriken > Hand Crossbow > Dagger
Paragon
Crossbow > Shuriken > Hand Crossbow > Dagger
Epic
Crossbow > Shuriken > Hand Crossbow > Dagger
Heroic (Large)
Crossbow > Shuriken > Hand Crossbow > Dagger
Paragon (Large)
Crossbow > Shuriken > Hand Crossbow > Dagger
Epic (Large)
Crossbow > Shuriken > Hand Crossbow > Dagger

Acually, that seems true across the board... Huh. Wasn't quite expecting that.

Vikingkingq wrote:

Daggers/Shortswords/Rapiers
A subject fiercely under debate. While I await the number-crunching from here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1043542, I'll just lay out what my initial impressions are. Until you get to Paragon, I would say that Daggers versus Shortswords or Rapiers are more or less even, depending on how hard a target you're attacking, and this is why I advocate dual-wielding. If you need that extra boost, stab with the dagger; if you can hit easily, grab some extra damage with the Shortsword. As far as rapiers go, my sneaking suspicion is that they are really quite good; they double the damage of a Dagger, should definitely be used over a short-sword, and they have +3 to hit. Verdict: until you hit Paragon, carry both a dagger and something else. For the price of a feat, Rapier seems a cheap damage upgrade to me.

Oddly, even in situations where it's harder to hit (needing a 16+), the shortsword still outdoes the dagger on average. Granted, we're talking 1.5 average for the shortsword and 1.2 for the dagger, so the numbers are pretty small, but that's an extra 25% of the dagger's dpr. You still apparently stand to drop the enemy faster with a shortsword.

Heroic
Rapier > Katar > Shortsword > Sickle > Dagger
Paragon
Rapier > Katar > Shortsword > Sickle > Dagger
Epic
Rapier > Katar > Shortsword > Sickle > Dagger
Heroic (Large)
Rapier > Katar > Shortsword > Sickle > Dagger
Paragon (Large)
Rapier > Katar > Shortsword > Sickle > Dagger
Epic (Large)
Rapier > Katar > Shortsword > Sickle > Dagger

No, none of that took into account the PP, most certainly not the Daggermaster. But for low levels, Quick Draw, the Short Sword, and Shuriken really seem the way to go. For Daggermasters, Daggers should stay in your hand, since shuriken are generally as good or better throughout the Paragon and Epic tiers (unless you're Large, at which point, chuck them hard and often during the Paragon tier). Unfortunately, Daggermasters may still be better off using a rapier: even accounting for triple crits and extra damage from magic weapons that a Daggermaster will get, he only averages more damage with the dagger when he needs 13+ to hit throughout Paragon, and only when he needs 16+ throughout Epic.

Melee
Paragon
Rapier > Dagger > Katar > Shortsword > Sickle
Epic
Rapier > Dagger > Katar > Shortsword > Sickle
Paragon (Large)
Dagger > Rapier > Katar > Shortsword > Sickle
Epic (Large)
Rapier > Dagger > Katar > Shortsword > Sickle
Ranged
Paragon
Dagger > Crossbow > Shuriken > Hand Crossbow
Epic
Crossbow > Dagger > Shuriken > Hand Crossbow
Paragon (Large)
Dagger > Crossbow > Shuriken > Hand Crossbow
Epic (Large)
Dagger > Crossbow > Shuriken > Hand Crossbow

It seems that the real benefit of the Daggermaster Path is that a dagger becomes better than any other weapon that you get free proficiency with, rather than simply "better than any other weapon". And it takes the dagger up to the height of ranged weapons, pretty much undeniably. It seems to benefit Large races more than Medium or Small, though; frankly, the Light Blade Mastery and Weapon Proficiency Rapier feats give you far better bang for your buck if you are Medium or Small, or just want to play a viable alternative to the Daggermaster. (Of course, there are no playable Large creatures yet to my knowledge.)

Now, I'll be the first to admit I haven't weighted how often you'd be up against something where you need 16+ to hit. Honestly, that depends more on how you specialize your build than anything else. But the more often you hit, the less you want the dagger.

(I don't have a good spot to host the edited spreadsheet, so if anyone wants a copy, message me and I'll email you one. Major props to WWAD.)

EmpactWB wrote:

I was surprised to see the dagger at the bottom of the damage list, even then. (Like, not even the bottom of the ranged list, but the whole thing.)

I can tell you without seeing the calculations that you have made a mistake. Perhaps you are not accounting for Sneak Attack. If you can't identify the problem, post your figures for a single example and I can probably find it for you.

Well, it's possible to do more damage with the shortsword on a higher W attack (though often _not_ on a low W attack), but it should work out to _at least_ comparable damage with dagger compared to shortsword, but the dagger gets to actually land special effects and kill stuff more.

I think dagger clearly trumps shortsword, almost always. If you sometimes get excessive bonuses to attack (warlord, et al) such that a 2 hits have a bigger weapon to do those attacks - if you care enough and just have the extra magic item around.

Favored Enemy wrote:

I can tell you without seeing the calculations that you have made a mistake. Perhaps you are not accounting for Sneak Attack. If you can't identify the problem, post your figures for a single example and I can probably find it for you.

I have shamed myself as a Rogue player. How dare I forget SA! *slaps self vigorously in the face* Not to mention slings. Okay, having accounted for SA (by which I mean I added the assumption that you'll have it for every attack rather than none at all). Also, the weapons are assumed to be level appropriate early tier rogues (+1/+3/+5 weapons).

General
Ranged
Heroic
Crossbow > Shuriken > Dagger > Hand Crossbow = Sling
Paragon
Shuriken > Crossbow > Dagger > Hand Crossbow = Sling
Epic
Crossbow > Shuriken > Dagger > Hand Crossbow = Sling
Heroic (Large)
Crossbow > Shuriken > Dagger > Hand Crossbow = Sling
Paragon (Large)
Shuriken > Dagger > Crossbow > Hand Crossbow = Sling
Epic (Large)
Shuriken > Dagger > Crossbow > Hand Crossbow = Sling
Melee
Heroic
Rapier > Katar > Shortsword > Dagger > Sickle
Paragon
Rapier > Katar > Shortsword > Dagger > Sickle
Epic
Rapier > Katar > Shortsword > Dagger > Sickle
Heroic (Large)
Rapier > Katar > Shortsword > Dagger > Sickle
Paragon (Large)
Rapier > Katar > Shortsword = Dagger > Sickle
Epic (Large)
Rapier > Katar > Shortsword > Dagger > Sickle

Not much of a change for melee, but it's better than the sickle (finally). Of course, the difference between a dagger and a shortsword is never more than .7 average damage, and the difference between the rapier and the dagger is at most 2.6 average damage (and that's only against easy to hit enemies in the epic tier, so not a whole lot). Remind me to figure for the Shadow Assassin with their extra die for SA. I really had the ranged chart wonky, though.

Daggermaster
Melee
Paragon
Dagger > Rapier > Katar > Shortsword > Sickle
Epic
Dagger > Rapier > Katar > Shortsword > Sickle
Paragon (Large)
Dagger > Rapier > Katar > Shortsword > Sickle
Epic (Large)
Dagger > Rapier > Katar > Shortsword > Sickle
Ranged
Paragon
Dagger > Shuriken > Crossbow > Hand Crossbow = Sling
Epic
Dagger > Crossbow > Shuriken > Hand Crossbow = Sling
Paragon (Large)
Dagger > Shuriken > Crossbow > Hand Crossbow = Sling
Epic (Large)
Dagger > Shuriken > Crossbow > Hand Crossbow = Sling

There we go. That's more in line with what I had expected to find when I did this. 2.8~4.8 average damage over a non-Daggermaster Rogue at similar levels (both using daggers). 1.5~2.2 over a non-Daggermaster using a Rapier (with proficiency but not with Light Blade Mastery; didn't check those numbers yet). With specific builds I can figure out actual average damage numbers to compare (none of these take into account Dex bonus, Weapon Focus, etc.). That's honestly the best way to calculate a "best" weapon.

On a lighter, more amusing, and almost entirely irrelevant note, a Dagger Kensei deals more damage with a dagger than with a greataxe. I didn't factor in magic weapons or SA to that either yet; I'll give the verdict on Kensei vs Daggermaster in pure damage terms later.

EDIT: I should clarify something up there. I have the Hand Crossbow as equal to the Sling up there a lot. If you are for some reason forced to choose between the crappiest options for ranged weaponry, consider the weight aspect. By taking the sling over the hand crossbow, you can afford an extra 480 sling bullets than you could crossbow bolts. But they weigh five times as much, some 120 lbs. That's a lot less looting you can do.

I think you've still got an error in there somewhere. Let's say a heroic tier rogue is doing (1d4 or 1d6)+2d8+5 damage and has a 60% (shuriken/shortsword) or 65% (dagger) chance to hit, then it averages 10.475 damage with the shuriken/shortsword and 11.15 with the dagger. The dagger will only perform better the more static bonuses you have (higher ability, feat and enhancement bonuses, etc) while the other weapons only improve for higher W powers, so the dagger should look good at all tiers for all characters.

And especially for daggermasters.

Math:
.55 * (3.5+9+5) + .05 * (6 + 16 + 5) vs.
.6 * (2.5+9+5) + .05 * (4 + 16 + 5)

Keithric wrote:

I think you've still got an error in there somewhere. Let's say a heroic tier rogue is doing (1d4 or 1d6)+2d8+5 damage and has a 60% (shuriken/shortsword) or 65% (dagger) chance to hit, then it averages 10.475 damage with the shuriken/shortsword and 11.15 with the dagger. The dagger will only perform better the more static bonuses you have (higher ability, feat and enhancement bonuses, etc) while the other weapons only improve for higher W powers, so the dagger should look good at all tiers for all characters.

And especially for daggermasters.

One thing you're ignoring is that a 55%/60% split is only one of the many ways it could be. The actual permutations are: 95/95, 90/95, 85/90, 80/85, 75/80, 70/75, 65/70, 60/65, 55/60, 50/55, 45/50, 40/45, 35/40, 30/35, 25/30, 20/25, 15/20, 10/15, 5/10, 5/5 single non-crit, and 5/5 dual non-crit. The actual representative range I calculated are for (in the order of Dagger/Rapier-Katar-Shortsword-Shuriken/Crossbow-Hand Crossbow-Sickle-Sling, just so we know where everything falls) 95/90/85, 80/75/70, 75/70/65, 60/55/50, and 45/40/35.

Another thing you're ignoring is that the dagger deals 2 less damage on average (non-crit strike) compared to the rapier and 1 less than the shortsword or katar. In any situation where they will be hitting/criting as often, the dagger needs a +2 damage bonus to be as good on average. And there are two situations where this is true: when you're pwning (when you don't need it) and when you're being pwned (when you really do).

Keithric wrote:

Math:
.55 * (3.5+9+5) + .05 * (6 + 16 + 5) vs.
.6 * (2.5+9+5) + .05 * (4 + 16 + 5)

This doesn't quite lead to the numbers you gave, actually.
Math (adding a line for the rapier):
.55 * (4.5+9+5) + .05 * (8 + 16 + 5) = .55 * 18.5 + .05 * 29 = 11.625
.55 * (3.5+9+5) + .05 * (6 + 16 + 5) = .55 * 17.5 + .05 * 27 = 10.975
.6 * (2.5+9+5) + .05 * (4 + 16 + 5) = .6 * 16.5 + .05 * 25 = 11.15
Yes, the dagger ekes out a 0.175 average damage lead over the shuriken/shortsword in that specific case. Does this edge it out overall? The math doesn't support that, really, especially when the rapier deals 0.475 more than the dagger.

I could probably extend the chart to include all possible permutations. Would that suit?

EDIT: Extended the chart solely for basic Heroic tier. The Dagger is back to being the worst overall weapon for that period. On the other hand, it is the best weapon if the target has a defense 21-24 higher than your attack bonus (before adding proficiency bonus), and it's better than the short sword for targets with a defense 16-24 higher than your attack bonus (bapb). Okay, granted, at exactly 16, the 'advantage' is .025 average damage, one extra point for every forty hits, but it does get better from there. At defenses 25+, we already know that nothing is going to be terribly effective, hitting only one in twenty attacks and never criting.

I just did the math with the help of Excel, and I figured out this.

Dagger is superior to Shortsword/Shuriken when the following two factors are considered:

1) The harder it is to hit with a Shortsword, the more optimal Dagger is
2) The more of a bonus you get to damage, the more optimal Dagger is.

Sneak attack damage normalizes at 7 average damage, and assuming your Dex bonus is +4, and assuming you are using a 1[w] attack, that means you'll be doing on average 14.5 damage with short sword, and 13.5 damage with the dagger.

If you need a 7 or less to hit the target, Shortsword is ideal. If you need 8 or more to hit the target, Dagger is ideal. Then, for every bonus point to damage above, say with magical weapons, you shift the number over one in favor of the Dagger. So with +2 damage from a cleric or magic items, this becomes 5/6 as your sweet spots.

With 2[W] attacks in this same scenario, it shifts over quite a bit so that Shortswords are ideal at 13- and Daggers at 14+, with every -2- points of damage bonus shifting the columns over one.

About the time you hit level 11, your sneak attack damage bumps up by 3.5, and your Dex is adding +1 to damage as well, so now your bonus to damage is 15.5, and Daggers become optimal across all 1[W] attacks.

For 2[W] attacks, Shortswords edge in front at 10 to hit, and daggers at 11.

At level 21, your Dex is now adding +7 to damage, and your Sneak attack average is up to a mighty 22.5, but your basic attacks are now doing 2[W] damage. Still, Dagger comes out mightily ahead of Short Sword by a very large margin.

So, to sum up.

Higher [W] makes Shortsword better.
High chance to hit makes Shortsword better.
Higher Damage bonus makes Dagger better.
Higher difficulty to hit makes Dagger better.

And there are times where Dagger gets better across the board.

EmpactWB wrote:

EDIT: Extended the chart solely for basic Heroic tier. The Dagger is back to being the worst overall weapon for that period.

I'm not sure why you are coming across so much difficulty, but I still challenge your results.

I figured out the other problem with my numbers. I was accounting for extra critical damage from magical weapons, but not the enhancement bonus damage.

I still have something different from you, draconbitz, though. Using a basic attack (which increases to 2[W] in Epic), Dagger is still only better than a shortsword at 11-24 in Heroic, although it does work at 6-24 in Paragon and Epic. Dagger is better than Rapier at 18-24 in Heroic, 13-24 in Paragon, and 16-24 in Epic.


= [ Crit Rate * ( Crit Damage + Average Crit Bonus damage ) ] + ( 20 - Difference between Bonus to Hit and target Defense) * 0.05 * (Average Damage plus Static Bonuses)
Crit rate is .05 but I set it to determine whether or not you could actually score a critical. If you can't, it adds an average attack instead. For Heroic, I defined static bonuses as +1 Enhancement and +4 Ability; Paragon is +3 and +5, respectively, and Epic is +5 and +6. Sneak attack is factored in on all attacks, and I assumed it to be maximized on crits.

I did set into the calculations things to prevent hit averages of greater than 100% and less than 0% for the low and high difference numbers.

Okay, so where are we differing?

EmpactWB wrote:

Another thing you're ignoring is that the dagger deals 2 less damage on average (non-crit strike) compared to the rapier and 1 less than the shortsword or katar.

No, wasn't ignoring that at all. Hence the dealing less damage on a hit or crit, just hitting more often.

In any situation where they will be hitting/criting as often

Which are excessively rare and if they're somehow common in your group then you should adjust appropriately. Or carry another weapon in your other hand.

This doesn't quite lead to the numbers you gave, actually.

Yep, typo-ed the shortsword line from .475 to .975. Either way, not very meaningful difference in damage and hitting at all is far more important. The 1st level rogue in question could use a rapier... or he could use backstabber, the feat I gave. If human, could use weapon focus instead of the rapier, adding damage to both the shortsword and dagger lines in comparison.

Yes, the dagger ekes out a 0.175 average damage lead over the shuriken/shortsword in that specific case. Does this edge it out overall? The math doesn't support that, really, especially when the rapier deals 0.475 more than the dagger.

So give the dagger user another feat if you want to compare to rapier. And consider the benefits of killing minions and landing daze, knockout, whatever

I could probably extend the chart to include all possible permutations. Would that suit?

Not really. It still depends on how much static bonus damage you do, how much leader support, whether you make OAs or have riposte strike, etc.

Anyhow, sounds like you found at least some errors in your sheet, not really sure what to say beyond that. I think that both rapier and dagger are extremely good choices, but shortsword and shuriken... not so much.

SUMMARY OF POST:

if
AC < 19.5 + bonus to hit with shortsword - (bonus to damage)/(number of weapon dice in attack)
then
Use the Shortsword.

Alright, I'm going to work on a unified theory of Dagger vs Shortsword such that using any variables of attack probabilities, critical ranges, x[W] shinanegans, and attack bonuses, you can know in an instant if it'll be better to use Dagger or Shortsword.

First concept I'm going to introduce is for ease of calculation. Instead of calculating MDPR (mean damage per round) I'll instead invent a concept called ED20, or Expected Damage in 20 [attacks].

The ED20 is a lot easier to calculate than DPR, and is directly proportional to DPR, and therefore just as valid for comparison sake.

You start with the number you need to hit. Let's say you need a 12 to hit... then that's the variable I'll use. Let's call it R.

Then you need the crit range. That's how many rolls on the dice will cause a crit. For most rolls this number will be 1, for _____ Mastery it will be 2, and for Daggermaster, it will be 3. Let's call this number k.

The average damage for an attack that hits but does not crit is equal to x+b, where x is the average damage on the dice you roll, and b is the flat bonus to damage from attribute, feats etc.

Then, for critical hits, c is the maximum value for the dice you roll for x, and d is the average roll of the bonus dice for the critical you rolled.

The expected mean damage over 20 rolls, or ED20 will therefore be:

(21-R)(x+b)+(k)(c-x+d)

So, for example, a short sword + 1 that needs a 14 to hit, and has +6 to damage, but does not have sneak attack damage has an ED20 as follows:

(21-14)(3.5+6)+(1)(7-3.5+3.5)
=7(9.5)+7
=73.5

I could go steps further and calculate the DPR by dividing by 20, but it is unnecessary and complicates the math for no statistical gain.

Now, with both weapons, b will be the same, and assuming d is the same as well, the only variables then are x and c. x, however, is equal to W (weapon damage) + s (sneak attack damage), and c similiarly so... we'll call it M for max weapon damage and z for max sneak attack damage.

So, at heroic level, the formula becomes:

(21-R)(W+7+b)+M-W+5+d

Lastly, let's alter m and w, to include the q[W] factor. w is now the weapon dice for the weapon, and m is the maximum for a single weapon die.

(21-R)(qw+7+b)+qm-qw+5+d

Lastly, 21-R really represents the number of rolls on a 20 sided die we need to hit. To simplify the oncoming math, we'll make that r.

rqw+r7+rb+qm-qw+5+d

Let's make two versions of this equation. The first will be for daggers, the second for short swords. In the first cast, r is actually 1 more than it is for short swords, so that'll make the equation slightly different. We're interested in finding out what values of r make shortswords better, so we're going to look at where the ED20 is greater for shortswords than for daggers. This makes the following inequation:

3.5rq+7r+br+6q-3.5q+5+d > 2.5(r+1)q+7r+7+br+b+4q-2.5q+5+d
3.5rq+7r+br+2.5q+5+d > 2.5rq+2.5q+7r+7+br+b+4q-2.5q+5+d
3.5rq+7r+br+2.5q > 2.5rq+7r+7+br+b+4q
3.5rq+2.5q > 2.5rq+b+4q
rq > b+1.5q
r > (b+1.5q)/q
r > b/q + 1.5

Now to turn this into practical terms.... we'll extract r back into 21-R to find the maximum roll we need to show up on the die before we need to break out the daggers.

21-R > b/q + 1.5
-R > b/q + 1.5 - 21
R < 19.5 - b/q

Wow. That's actually REALLY easy. During heroic tier, assuming the dagger and the shortsword are enchanted the same way... if R < 19.5 - b/q, it's better to roll the shortsword.

R, then, is equal to AC-bonus to hit

So to convert this further
AC - bonus to hit with shortsword < 19.5 - b/q
AC < 19.5 + bonus to hit with shortsword - (bonus to damage)/(number of weapon dice in attack)

This is the heroic tier calculation for when shortsword is better than dagger.

I can't even tell what just happened.

Are you saying that if the targets AC is less than 19.5, use the shortsword? No.

No. Hense the summary at the top.

If the enemy's defense is less than 19.5 PLUS your bonus to hit with a short sword MINUS THE QUOTIENT OF the bonus you get to damage / the number of weapon dice, then use the shortsword.

An example of how to use 19.5 + B - b/q.

Let's say you're a first level rogue Sly Flourishing your way to awesometown. You got 20 Dexterity, 14 Charisma, and Weapon Focus, and you have Combat Advantage.

Your bonus to hit is +5 +3 +2 = +10 to hit total.
Not counting Sneak Attack damage (already factored in) your bonus to damage is +5+2+1 = +8 to damage.

Sly Flourish is a 1[W] attack, so q is 1.

The formula becomes 19.5 + 10 - 8/1 or 29.5 - 8 = 21.5

If their AC is 21 or lower, bring out the short sword or shuriken. If it's 22 or higher, go for your dagger.

Another example.

Same character.

This time, he's using Trick Strike, and has Combat Advantage.

Chance to hit is the same.
Bonus to damage is only +6
q, the number of weapon dice, is 3, because it's a 3[W] power.

19.5 + 10 - 6/3 = 19.5 + 10 - 2 = 19.5 + 8 = 27.5.

If his reflex is lower than 27, use the shortsword. Chances are at level 1 it is.

Factoring out the sneak attack damage changes things a bit, and I'll have an equation soon enough that will be applicable across -all- levels for a rogue.

As far as I can tell on quick glance, your formula took sneak attack out too early and weighs nW too highly (if you did 100 bonus damage, going from 1W to 2W wouldn't make that worth 50, but ~99 - the SS's 3.5 - Dagger's 2.5 with an extra .1 for the 2 the shortsword gets on crits). Dagger hits more often so gets more benefit from all bonus damage, including sneak attack.

If B includes sneak attack (which it presumably should, though that may screw the number up slightly) and I assume your formula works in 1W situations for now, then your formula says 19.5 + 10 - 17, or 12.5 - so the dagger should perform better at AC 12.5 (ie, any situation in which its +1 helps, cause the shortsword doesn't need a 2 while the dagger also needs a 2). Aside, your formula should take into account that when they both need a 21+, the shortsword wins again (but not when a shortsword needs a 21 and a dagger needs a 20)

Verifying that would be simple enough... plugging into a quick sheet for DPR
(19 - (AC - AtkBonus) / 20) * (WAvg * W + DmgBonus+SneakAttack) + .05 * (WMax*W + DmgBonus + MaxSneakAttack)

where:
AtkBonus = 10 or 11
WAvg = 3.5 or 2.5
DmgBonus = 8
SneakAttack = 9
MaxSneakAttack=16
WMax = 6 or 4

1W
AC SS Dagger
13 17.90 17.98
14 16.88 17.00
15 15.85 16.03
16 14.83 15.05
17 13.80 14.08
18 12.78 13.10
19 11.75 12.13
20 10.73 11.15
21 9.70 10.18
22 8.68 9.20
24 6.63 7.25
25 5.60 6.28
26 4.58 5.30
27 3.55 4.33
28 2.53 3.35
29 1.50 2.38

At AC 12, obviously enough the shortsword wins. So that works out.

For 2W, it's
AC SS Dagger
13 21.00 20.30
14 19.80 19.20
15 18.60 18.10
16 17.40 17.00
17 16.20 15.90
18 15.00 14.80
19 13.80 13.70
20 12.60 12.60
21 11.40 11.50
22 10.20 10.40
24 7.80 8.20
25 6.60 7.10
26 5.40 6.00
27 4.20 4.90
28 3.00 3.80
29 1.80 2.70

For 3W, it's
AC SS Dagger
13 24.10 22.63
14 22.73 21.40
15 21.35 20.18
16 19.98 18.95
17 18.60 17.73
18 17.23 16.50
19 15.85 15.28
20 14.48 14.05
21 13.10 12.83
22 11.73 11.60
24 8.98 9.15
25 7.60 7.93
26 6.23 6.70
27 4.85 5.48
28 3.48 4.25
29 2.10 3.03

Hopefully that information should help you track down the initial error.

And, once again, even if shortsword performs, say, .02 better than dagger, rather than worse... hitting is more important than that miniscule amount of damage. A rapier can compare to a dagger, but not a shortsword except under autohit circumstances.

What we should probably do (and what I plan to do) is set up something like that for each variation. For all that there are a lot of powers, the majority of them give you x[W] and a list of calculable bonuses. It shouldn't be too hard to say "With X power and more than Y bonus, use Z weapon. With X power and Y bonus or less, use S weapon."

It would also keep me from forgetting to add stuff when I compare.

I think you pretty much commit to one weapon, barring an excess of available magic weapons.

And the math bears out that weapon being a rapier or dagger, depending on your preferences and available feats. I'm personally (though I concede it's an excellent choice) more than happy to save the feat from rapier because there are _way_ too many feats I want so if I'd lose any of, say, the following feats
Backstabber, (Improved Initiative or Quick Draw), Lost in the Crowd, Nimble Blade, Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Defense, Weapon Focus, Wintertouched
because I took rapier, that's a real disadvantage.

Meh, I'm generally underwhelmed by the Two Weapon feat tree. Not that it isn't just as useful as many of the alternative feats, it's just not really my style. (I'm also not too keen on Lost in the Crowd, since I picked Eladrin and can't use it.)

Still, I think a solid chart would benefit us, and by us I mean just me and maybe someone somewhere else at some time who I may or may not care exists and by benefit I mean make me feel better after making so many dumb mistakes, so it's definitely worthwhile.

Also, a note on Quick Draw versus Improved Initiative. I'm going to start with QD, because it helps with drawing weapons and getting potions out and such things. I'm might consider retraining it to Improved Initiative when potions start healing less than my actual Surge value, but the extra bennies of potions might still win out (and saving a minor action when poisoning a blade also helps a bit). I'm not sure why Quick Draw only gets (*) in light of that.

Yeah, the TWF feats aren't that impressive, but since I have a free hand that can have a dagger in it _anyways_ and maybe I'll want to have two weapons at some point for some obscure reason, they're on the list of maybes. Two-Weapon Defense is honestly fairly solid and every little bit of damage is potentially nice....

That list is already more feats than I can take in the whole heroic tier, however. Without rapier

Oh, and I totally missed listing Defensive Mobility, Escape Artist, and Halfling Agility. I'd not mind taking Skill Focus (Intimidate) too, but that'd be for pure amusement not effect, so I doubt it'll happen.

Keithric wrote:

Yeah, the TWF feats aren't that impressive, but since I have a free hand that can have a dagger in it _anyways_ and maybe I'll want to have two weapons at some point for some obscure reason, they're on the list of maybes. Two-Weapon Defense is honestly fairly solid and every little bit of damage is potentially nice....

Yeah, they're nice. But I figure I'll actually carry a fair number of weapons, keep my hands free mos of the time by drawing whichever I want in any particular round and using the spare minor action to put it back. Visualizing it, it reminds me a lot of the martial arts that use the action of drawing the sword to begin the slash and re-sheathe it immediately afterwards...

Keithric wrote:

That list is already more feats than I can take in the whole heroic tier, however. Without rapier

Yep, two more. And there are three I'm not too keen on, and not much to replace them. You can see why I'd be keen on the rapier instead.

Keithric wrote:

Oh, and I totally missed listing Defensive Mobility, Escape Artist, and Halfling Agility. I'd not mind taking Skill Focus (Intimidate) too, but that'd be for pure amusement not effect, so I doubt it'll happen.

Hmm, Defensive Mobility would be nice, actually, since I plan on being a bit of a provoker rogue. I'll have to think on that one... Escape Artist not so much since I always have a couple of get out of jail free cards (forced movement or teleport). Viva la Eladrin.

I guess. If I took rapier proficiency, I'd still need to have a dagger for throwing. This way my ranged attacks will be more effective - very important for things like deft strike with stealth.

On that note, Warrior of the Wild is also another heroic tier feat. Okay, that's it, this is ridiculous Cause it gets even worse when I hit Paragon and want another dozen feats and can start retraining my heroic ones.

Keithric wrote:

I guess. If I took rapier proficiency, I'd still need to have a dagger for throwing. This way my ranged attacks will be more effective - very important for things like deft strike with stealth.

Absolutely. That's why I'd want to have Quick Draw: multiple weapons available at almost any time.

Right... but if you end up using a lower level weapon, that's a real downside. Or an upside of the dagger, I suppose. Yay for auto-returning weapons.

Keithric wrote:

As far as I can tell on quick glance, your formula took sneak attack out too early and weighs nW too highly (if you did 100 bonus damage, going from 1W to 2W wouldn't make that worth 50, but ~99 - the SS's 3.5 - Dagger's 2.5 with an extra .1 for the 2 the shortsword gets on crits). Dagger hits more often so gets more benefit from all bonus damage, including sneak attack.

Let the average damage of a Short Sword/Shuriken hit with a specific attack be S. The expected damage of a shortsword per 20 hits is PS + C(M-S+d) where p is the number of outcomes that deliver of successful hits, C is the number of outcomes that deliver a critical, M is the maximum damage of a short sword hit, d is bonus damage of the critical.

Using a dagger will add x to your damage, where x is the average damage of a single dagger hit, represented by the +1 to hit. It also subtracts y from your damage, where y is the damage per hit reduction of the dagger. The difference in average damage between a dagger and a short sword is equal to 1 point per die rolled.

if x > y, the dagger adds damage. If y > x, the dagger subtracts damage.

x is easy to calculate. It's simply S - q, where q is the weapon dice. 1[W] means 3.5-2.5 = 1 2[W] means 7-5 = 1.

So on one side of the inequation, we have S - q.

y is trickier, and it changes based on probability to hit, and critical hit chance.

For every weapon die, the shortsword does 1 points more damage, and for every critical hit chance, the shortsword adds 2 points more damage, assuming the same crit chance for both (not taking Daggermaster into account, which complicates both sides of the equation more)

It's therefore equal to Pq + 2Cq.

So if S - q > Pq + 2Cq, use the dagger.

S > Pq + 2Cq + q
S > q(P + 2C + 1)

S is equal to the damage dice of the weapon (3.5), plus other bonus damage.

qs + b > q(P + 2C + 1)

b > q(P + 2C + 1 - s)

b/q > P + 2C + 1 - s now plug in the damage die for s

b/q > P + 2C + 1 - 3.5

b/q > P + 2C - 2.5

b/q - 2C > P + 2.5 P is 21 - the number you need to roll to hit with shortsword, R.

b/q - 2C > 21 - R + 2.5

R > 23.5 + 2C - b/q R is the Defense - attack bonus, D - A

D - A > 23.5 + 2C - b/q

D > 23.5 + 2C + A - b/q

The reason b is divided by q is very simple. b or bonus damage is only an advantage to the dagger for one outcome, that being the one where the dagger hits and the shortsword misses. q, on the otherhand, is applicable to -every- outcome where both the dagger and the shortsword hit. This means that the higher q is, the less that bonus matters. The bonus damage doesn't apply as much to the difference in DPR as you think it does. It isn't as important to the success of a dagger as the probability to hit is, but it is still important enough to weigh the equation down towards the dagger. The weapon dice, however, weigh the equation back up towards the shortsword, as it should be.

Another way of looking at it. Bonus damage only makes a difference between the two's DPR once, and therefore it is additive. Weapon dice makes a difference every time a shortsword would hit, and is therefore multiplicative.

Aside, your formula should take into account that when they both need a 21+, the shortsword wins again (but not when a shortsword needs a 21 and a dagger needs a 20)

That's a trivial case, however, and no equation necessary. If the swortsword needs a 21 to hit, and the dagger a 20, the base equation becomes

S < D, use the dagger.

Where S is the damage of the shortsword on a hit, and D is the damage of a dagger on a crit.

3.5q + b < 4q + b + d
-0.5q < d q is a positive integer, therefore -0.5q < 0. d is a non-negative real number, therefore 0<=d
-0.5q<0<=d
0<=d
Therefore, if your bonus critical damage is greater than or equal to 0, use a dagger in this situation.

Verifying that would be simple enough... plugging into a quick sheet for DPR
(19 - (AC - AtkBonus) / 20) * (WAvg * W + DmgBonus+SneakAttack) + .05 * (WMax*W + DmgBonus + MaxSneakAttack)

where:
AtkBonus = 10 or 11
WAvg = 3.5 or 2.5
DmgBonus = 8
SneakAttack = 9
MaxSneakAttack=16
WMax = 6 or 4

1W
AC SS Dagger
13 17.90 17.98
14 16.88 17.00
15 15.85 16.03
16 14.83 15.05
17 13.80 14.08
18 12.78 13.10
19 11.75 12.13
20 10.73 11.15
21 9.70 10.18
22 8.68 9.20
24 6.63 7.25
25 5.60 6.28
26 4.58 5.30
27 3.55 4.33
28 2.53 3.35
29 1.50 2.38

At AC 12, obviously enough the shortsword wins. So that works out.

For 2W, it's
AC SS Dagger
13 21.00 20.30
14 19.80 19.20
15 18.60 18.10
16 17.40 17.00
17 16.20 15.90
18 15.00 14.80
19 13.80 13.70
20 12.60 12.60
21 11.40 11.50
22 10.20 10.40
24 7.80 8.20
25 6.60 7.10
26 5.40 6.00
27 4.20 4.90
28 3.00 3.80
29 1.80 2.70

For 3W, it's
AC SS Dagger
13 24.10 22.63
14 22.73 21.40
15 21.35 20.18
16 19.98 18.95
17 18.60 17.73
18 17.23 16.50
19 15.85 15.28
20 14.48 14.05
21 13.10 12.83
22 11.73 11.60
24 8.98 9.15
25 7.60 7.93
26 6.23 6.70
27 4.85 5.48
28 3.48 4.25
29 2.10 3.03

Hopefully that information should help you track down the initial error.

And, once again, even if shortsword performs, say, .02 better than dagger, rather than worse... hitting is more important than that miniscule amount of damage. A rapier can compare to a dagger, but not a shortsword except under autohit circumstances.

Actually I didn't track down the error (tho I see where there might be one), but I managed to reformulate the equation using a simpler method. And hitting is more important if the secondary effects of the hit are important, otherwise, if the shortsword/shuriken does more damage, it, well, does more damage.

It also doesn't take into account Miss: Half Damage situations, which alter the math as well, albeit, in favor of the Shuriken.

Now to figure out when miss: Half applies.

Bonus damage is halved on a miss, except sneak attack damage. When the dagger and a shortsword both miss, that damage weighs in neither direction, so the dagger only does subtracts 1/2 damage per shortsword miss. However, during the one probability point that the dagger does the sneak attack and the shortsword missies, the difference in damage is z + b - 1/2 b or z + 1/2 b, where z is sneak attack damage and b is other bonus damage

x = S - q + z - 1/2 b
y = Pq + 2Cq - (20-P)1/2q
= Pq + 2Cq - 10q +1/2Pq
= 1.5Pq + 2Cq - 10q

x > y
S - q + z + b/2 > 1.5Pq + 2Cq - 10q

S + z + b/2 > 1.5Pq + 2Cq - 9q

S + z + b/2 > (1.5P + 2C - 9)q
qs + b + z + b/2 > (1.5P + 2C - 9)q

3b/2 + z > (1.5P + 2C - 9 - s)q
3b/2 + z > (1.5P + 2C - 12.5)q
(3b + 2z)/2q > 3P/2 + 4C/2 - 25/2

(3b + 2z)/q > 3P + 4C - 25

25 -4C + (3b + 2z)/q > 3P

P < 25/3 - 4C/3 + (3b + 2z)/3q

P < 8.33 - 1.33C + (3b + 2z)/3q

D < A + 8.33 - 1.33C + (3b + 2z)/3q

draconbitz wrote:

So on one side of the inequation, we have S - q.

Yep, where S = avg shortsword damage and q is # of W (...why not W?). Anyhow on sight through things mostly looked good, thanks for the explanation!

S is equal to the damage dice of the weapon (3.5), plus other bonus damage.

Where really the only error earlier was in not including sneak attack before, right. Though my results still ended up slightly off from yours, hrmm. And the divide by q makes sense not because you're actually dividing bonus damage by W, but just cause everything else is multiplied. Good, good - another thing, shortsword is _worse_ for any case where dagger is equal, as well, so you should probably favor the equation in that way (they don't tie often, but it happens and dagger just wins ties if damage is equal cause it's better at killing blows (like minions) and better at landing effects)

b/q > P + 2C - 2.5 ... b/q - 2C > P + 2.5 P is 21 - the number you need to roll to hit with shortsword, R.

You inverted the sign on the 2.5 by mistake. Should stay -2.5 above... which gives:

D > 18.5 + 2C + A - b/q

So, plugging in C=1, A=10, b=17

Dagger better when D>= 18.5 + 2 + 10 - 17/q or
1W = 13.5
2W = 22
3W = 24.833

which is still 2 too high. So... you're closer. If you take 2 off, that is totally correct. But I don't have time to find the error right now. First suggestion is that maybe the 21 - is a 19 -, if you're assuming one crit earlier on.

No, you're right about it being 19.5.

Your dpr calculation doesn't take extra crit damage into effect, by the way.

I see one error, 2Cq should be Cq, as 2Cq puts a shortsword 3 points above dagger at every crit (1 for the Pq outcomes that crit, and 2 for the Cq on top of that)

So that accounts for one point....

I'll re-examine it closer later.

My dpr calculation wasn't for magic weapons so it didn't have to - was just a level 1 test I just wanted a nice smooth easily referred to set of stats that I knew were valid so I could compare the formulae to it.

That's okay, magic weapons don't factor into the comparison anyways... hense why it factors out in my equation.

Figured out where the other 1 point of difference came from.

Your formula is off by one.

You used (20 - (AC - Attack Bonus) - Crit Rate)/20 as your probability calculation.

That's not correct, according to that, if your attack bonus is equal to the defense minus one you'd have a 95% chance to hit, when, in fact, it's 100%.

Another way to check if it's wrong. If you need a 10 to hit, your hit rate should be 55%, due to the fact 11 outcomes out of 20 are successful hits.

(20 - (D - A) - Crit Rate)/20
(20 - (A + 10 - A) - Crit Rate)/20
(20 - 10 - Crit Rate)/20
(10 - Crit Rate)/20
(0.5 - Crit Rate/20)

If it were correct, it would have come out 0.55 - Crit Rate/20

So that accounts for the other point of discreprency.


But it -does- bear out the adjusted formula, which is now

D > 19.5 + C + A - b/q

draconbitz wrote:

Your formula is off by one.

Included it for a reason, good good.

That's not correct, according to that, if your attack bonus is equal to the defense minus one you'd have a 95% chance to hit, when, in fact, it's 100%.

Well, it's actually 95%. 1 always misses. I apparently just overapplied that principle.

So that accounts for the other point of discreprency.

Yep...

But it -does- bear out the adjusted formula, which is now D > 19.5 + C + A - b/q

Nope - 21 - 2.5 = 18.5

And it's still D>= because you only want to use a shortsword if it does more damage than a dagger. Dagger still wins ties. If you could put a value on "kills minions better" "lands effects better" and "can be thrown more effectively" you could even complete the equation. So in theory someone could plug those in I suppose.

D>= 18.5 + C + A - b/q
appears to work for the values I tested. Cheers.

Yeah the 1 always missing is

And thanks again for catching that math mistake. 2 in the morning, just got back from work. Tired. Heh.

As an aside, you should see how I deconstructed Power Attack at ENWorld some time.

A question:
Is using Intimidate in combat really practical?

Consider a level 4 artful dodger with with a charisma of 18. Training in Intimidate + 4 (ability) + 2 (1/2 lvl) gives you +11 to intimidate, not including racial bonus.
Monsters around lvl 4-6 generally have a Will defense of 16, give or take a few points. If you're using Intimidate against them in combat, they'll most certainly be hostile, boosting their Will defense against Intimidate to 26 (+/- a few points). That's less than a 50% chance to successfully cow a bloodied monster. It might be better to just attack the monster instead.

What do you guys think?

Denouema wrote:

A question:
Is using Intimidate in combat really practical?

Consider a level 4 artful dodger with with a charisma of 18. Training in Intimidate + 4 (ability) + 2 (1/2 lvl) gives you +11 to intimidate, not including racial bonus.
Monsters around lvl 4-6 generally have a Will defense of 16, give or take a few points. If you're using Intimidate against them in combat, they'll most certainly be hostile, boosting their Will defense against Intimidate to 26 (+/- a few points). That's less than a 50% chance to successfully cow a bloodied monster. It might be better to just attack the monster instead.

What do you guys think?

50% chance of not haveing to hit them again? lat I remember you can intimidate everyone that can hear you so if there is 4 monsters on bloodied thats a 2 mobs down
in short yes. dear god yes

Actually, unless you have a +2 racial bonus to intimidate, it's going to average to less than 50% chance. If the monster doesn't speak your language, you tack on -5 to your check, further reducing your chances of success.

To chime in on the dagger vs. rapier discussion: Both are valid, depending on what you want to do with your rogue, i.e. your power choice.

If you look at the rogue encounter and daily powers, you'll notice that there are two types: Those with lots of [W], and those with one, sometimes two [W] but either against many enemies or with a very good status effect.

Obviously, if you go for the many [W], the rapier is better, as its +2 damage per [W] is hard to make up for in extra hit chance.
If you take lots of multiple target and status effect powers, the dagger rules, as weapon damage is a secondary thought. You're out to take out minions, and weaken enemies so the whole party can beat them up.

The mathematical model is pretty simple. First, we assume that with a +3 (rapier, short sword) proficiency, we have a 50% chance to hit, and with +4 (dagger) 55%. This means that roughly 10 attacks out of 20 hit with the rapier/shortsword, and 11 out of 20 with the dagger, which means 10% more hits.
There is no need for complication as the system is balanced toward that hit chance in an average encounter. As harder to hit enemies favor the dagger, and easier to hit enemies favor the shortsword/rapier, it balances out over several encounters.

According to the easy equation above, if we look at the sheer damage for 1 [W] attacks without taking any other factor into consideration, a dagger is on par with the short sword if it deals 10 damage on average: (1d4 + 7.5)*110% = 1d6+7.5. To be equal to the rapier, it would have to deal 20 damage on average, or 1d4 + 17.5.

That 7.5 extra damage is easy to achieve, as Sneak Attack in its basic configuration already does 2d6 = 7.
At paragon level, even that 17.5 is possible:
10.5 [3d6 Sneak Attack] + 6 [22 Dex] + 3 [Magic Weapon] + 3 [Cha Sly Flourish or Str Brutal Scoundrel] = 22.5

The more [W] in a power the more the dagger loses out...

Does nobody see any value in Master Infiltrator? I think the abilities are pretty nice, and the powers seem to create a solid package of a guy that is there and then gone again. I am honestly having a hard time deciding between that and Shadow Assassin for my Tiefling Rogue/Warlock.

Timlagor wrote:

The DC for pickpocketing is based on target's level while your skill only goes up every two levels.

This was errata'd

mkill wrote:

To chime in on the dagger vs. rapier discussion: Both are valid, depending on what you want to do with your rogue, i.e. your power choice...

There doesn't seem to be any reason to go rapier when you can go double sword, same damage, counts as both light and heavy blade, and +1 AC.

You're responding to stuff that was written before the stuff you are talking about (Errata and Double Sword). I think this thread is pretty much dead now.

Timlagor wrote:

You're responding to stuff that was written before the stuff you are talking about (Errata and Double Sword). I think this thread is pretty much dead now.

I found it a very helpful resource, except for that one bit of misinformation, so I figured you might want to change it, that's all.

(Please correct me if I'm wrong).

I noticed that neither this guide, nor any of the other rogue guilds have any information from Martial Power. If any of the authours would like power descriptions for their guides (not for use, but for rating, and so on), I'd be happy to give them, because powers like Disheartening Strike and Precision Incision seem like they'd be great additions (I only mention 1st level powers here as an example).

> What do you guys think?

I think I'm going to pull a black stick out of my robes, tell my allies "Everyone stand back!", point it at my target, and go "Pew pew pew!"

With any luck they are too busy running away to notice the stick is mundane...

The Q was, roughly, "how useful could Intimidate be to a scrawny rogue, in combat without developmental time to role play a conversation?" If the Q was not that, I think I have a good answer anyway. (-:

Jan 18, 2010 -- 1:14PM, Phlip_ wrote:

> What do you guys think?

I think I'm going to pull a black stick out of my robes, tell my allies "Everyone stand back!", point it at my target, and go "Pew pew pew!"

With any luck they are too busy running away to notice the stick is mundane...

I've been reading the rogue builds so far and the main discussions I was able to see was about Daggermaster sadly beeing the only way to go on PP and about the use of daggers or rapiers. Within this concepts still, I have noticed the abscence of 2 points that can somehow make a difference for a diferent rogue build.

1st - Have anyone considered the usefullness of a rapier with Flash of The Blade feat?
 I mean, with FotB feat, you may deal your sneak attack dmg dice withou the need of having combat advantage against a creature as long as you are the only creature adjacent to that target. At first sight you may say "omg, what a complete WASTE of feat!" based on the fact that you stick with your defender and use your outstanding mobility to beeing able to flank at every single moment. But here comes a diferent point of view: you are a striker with great mobility, so why stick around your fighter if you can rush behind the enemy lines and make yourself a living hell of the lives of their leaders/controllers? Even if you are not that safe against OAs as an artfull dodger, you have encounter powers that let you shift your speed or half of it, so it is really easy for you to let the primary line of enemies with your party and rush your way through them right up to the face of that annoying debuff priest and make him pay for beeing that far from the battlefield. Now what's left for him to do instead of sit and cry?

2nd - Okay, but if I dont use daggers, where should I go on PP, since other options aren't that viable?
I would say Shadow Assassin, but IMHO, its utility power is so bad that it crashes the entire PP. A daily that does the same thing as a Swift Parry (with something about 4 more AC if you are an Artfull Dodger) and unleashes around 12 dmg? And have you wasted a moment to read its conditions? It has to be the very first strike that enemy does to you in that encounter. So that means you cant even save it for that devious strike or to try to cancel a crit on a 20 roll. Bad Idea Friend is the worst utility power you'll ever find in your life, so yes, it breaks the entire class. All 3 SAs passive powers are great but your encounter isn't better than the 1st lvl one Opening Move and your 20th daily isn't that great if you can free yourself from the illusion of the 5W.

But if not DM and SA, then what? Okay, now you got me and I don't know the answer myself. That's why I'm posting this on. In MP2 you have access to a new PP called Red Cloak and this one is just the flea behind my ear. The main thing about the RC PP is that none of its powers wastes an action. RC is based entirely on immediate reactions whether an enemy hits or misses you with melee attacks. With the passive Roof Runner you become just the master of mobility since you can shift 2 as an IR whenever an enemy misses you with an attack. This helps you in getting yourself into a flanking position, saving your skin or even in making your way to the leader through the enemy lines and you can move out of most enemies' threathening area with a shift 2. Crimson Brutality is just beatifull, period. As a rogue, I assume you have Slaying Action and CB just turns this feat into love of your life as it maximizes the dmg of your Sneak Attack when using an Action Point. Red Cloak Reaction does not shine like the other 2 but can give you the chance of using your At-Will or your RR when you miss with an IR attack. It's very situational, I know, that's why it doesn't shine.
But now we have an encounter power that deals 3W when an enemy hits you in melee. Okay, he has to HIT you, but as a rogue, you know it always happens sooner or later, so you have a way to punish the bastard that did hurt you. Your utility is an At-Will that gives CA to any enemy that misses you in melee. Now an enemy can think twice before attempting to hit you since giving you the chance of including +3d8's with a +2 to hit in your dmg output is something to fear more than receiving an automatic 6 dmg (except for minions, of course). Your daily deals 4W (1W less than SAs) but it is an IR against Reflex and knocks the target prone with the additional that it can't stand until it's next turn so you AND your allies can kick the bastard's body to death for a round.
But now you cry: RC need you to WASTE a feat (a real BIG WASTE) with the Red Cloak Student that does nothing but give a small bonus to Riposte Strike (wich is one of the worst rogue At-Will powers IMO) and that's all. Yes, big waste. Does it break the class like SAs utility power?

3rd - Yes! Now I can have a rogue that does not uses daggers and still owns?
Not quite, and it's because of a weapon called Kukri. Kukri is a dagger and considered a dagger by all means, even rogue weapon talent. By using a kukri you'll have -1 to hit than using a normal dagger, since it's proficiency bonus is +2 instead of +3. So, inside the "To Hit" category, the Kukri just drawns with the rapier. Then why Kukri if it hits less? Kukri has a dmg dice of d6 AND is Brutal (meaning you can reroll any 1 on the W dmg dice). With Meditation of the Blade, a Kukri's dmg dice can be brought up to d8 with Brutal 1 bringing itself WAY ahead of the Rapier. There's a topic in this forum that is still discussing the Rapier vs Dagger issue leading to something we can call an "almost draw", but if you bring the Kukri to the point, I'm sure the Rapier will fall down into the abyss. Since you can be a Daggermaster, use a d6 weapon that will reroll any 1 on your W dices, AND you will crit with 18-20 dealing your maximun d6 dmg thrice in about 20 hits. Yes, cry.


Now, the major question that I really can't solve myself:
Is the Kukri Daggermaster really WAY ahead of all other rogue's PPs. Or does the Red Cloak Rapier rogue with a wasted feat has a chance?

I agree that rapiers are a very viable option for a rogue.  My build sells it soul for +AC and you would give up the ability to have a ranged attack (rapier shield, or rapier parrying blade), or lose 1 to AC with a dagger offhand. 

If my build wasn't an Artful Dodger I would seriously consider the Red Cape, that path is sick as hell.  Its powers are simply better than Daggermasters and Shadow Assassin's (I admit the powers are just bad).  The real strength of Shadow Assassin is Shadow Assassin's Reposte, this power alone does soo much damage its not even funny.  Of course my whole rogue's idea is to jump right into the middle of things and have the defenses and payback for anyone who does. 

So, you can have a very very strong build with Red Cloak and a Rapier.  I will look a little bit more closely at Red Cloak, I'm just not sure its a great Halfling path.

Mar 2, 2010 -- 9:57AM, Locke.Cole wrote:

Kukri is a dagger and considered a dagger by all means, even rogue weapon talent.

A Kukri is only considered a dagger for the purposes of Rogue Weapon Talent, nothing else. Wielding a Kukri will sadly not allow the Daggermaster's dagger-dependent effects to function. Having to use a plain ol' dagger is the price you pay for an otherwise ridiculous PP.

Mar 2, 2010 -- 3:22PM, Philip wrote:

If my build wasn't an Artful Dodger I would seriously consider the Red Cape, that path is sick as hell.

My rogue is human and an Artful Dodger (since I like the mobility to run around the battlefield without beeing so scared) and I'm trying to figure out the usefulness of the Red Cloak PP in an Artful Dodger build since you just throw a feat inside the very depths of the ultimate trash with the ubber-useless Red Cloak Student feat, wich gives you +1 AC and reflex when you attack with one of the most useless rogue At-Will powers against a target you have combat advantage from. IMO Riposte Strike isn't good even in Brutal Scoundrels, since you have Deft Strike, Sly Flourish and Piercing Strike to choose from. You also get +2 to acrobatics but wth!?

Mar 2, 2010 -- 3:29PM, Nisungam wrote:

A Kukri is only considered a dagger for the purposes of Rogue Weapon Talent, nothing else. Wielding a Kukri will sadly not allow the Daggermaster's dagger-dependent effects to function. Having to use a plain ol' dagger is the price you pay for an otherwise ridiculous PP.

I was already warned about that, thanks. Point taken.

After looking over Red Cloak a bit more, I'm not sure I would take if I wasn't planning on using a Brutal Scoundrel with Reposte Strike.  Its lvl 16 ability and feat seem to really help out Reposte Strike.  I know as a rogue I have about 4 or 5 immediate reactions and anything that gave me an ability to keep them would be decent. 

As an Artful Dodger Shadow Assassin I could care less about shifting, I prefer to move and draw an OA if possible, my biggest fear is the enemies not taking OA's (which would mean I could move whereever I wanted with no fear, not too bad for a fear).  I think you are grossly underestimating the affect of Shadow Assassin's Reposte, it either is adding 6-10 damage per enemy attack or causing you to completely avoid being attacked all together when moving.  Basically if all the enemies attack you, you can do damage if they miss, and if none of them attack you are good too.

If I where to go Red Cloak, I would definately go Brutal Scoundrel and try to either discourage enemies from attacking me, due to immediate reaction attacks, or invite enemy attacks so that I could swing back.

Holy thread resurrection, Batman!

Why are you bothering to post here? This has been dead since long BEFORE I took my leave, and THAT was almost a year ago. I don't think the OP is even on the Boards anymore (he sure isn't on this one). Promote MatthiasKaiser's thread instead.

Mar 2, 2010 -- 5:07PM, lordduskblade wrote:

Holy thread resurrection, Batman!

Why are you bothering to post here? This has been dead since long BEFORE I took my leave, and THAT was almost a year ago. I don't think the OP is even on the Boards anymore (he sure isn't on this one). Promote MatthiasKaiser's thread instead.

This had me a bit confused as well. The reason is probably that the wiki doesn't show which handbooks are still active.

The inactive ones should be deleted if you ask me. No point in putting out outdated info.

Mar 2, 2010 -- 5:15PM, lordduskblade wrote:

The inactive ones should be deleted if you ask me. No point in putting out outdated info.

Go for it. I don't think many would disagree.

Mar 2, 2010 -- 5:07PM, lordduskblade wrote:

Holy thread resurrection, Batman!

Why are you bothering to post here? This has been dead since long BEFORE I took my leave, and THAT was almost a year ago. I don't think the OP is even on the Boards anymore (he sure isn't on this one). Promote MatthiasKaiser's thread instead.

I was just looking at The Complete Collection of Character Builds when I found myself in here.
Where should I post then?

Mar 2, 2010 -- 5:26PM, Locke.Cole wrote:

Mar 2, 2010 -- 5:07PM, lordduskblade wrote:

Holy thread resurrection, Batman!

Why are you bothering to post here? This has been dead since long BEFORE I took my leave, and THAT was almost a year ago. I don't think the OP is even on the Boards anymore (he sure isn't on this one). Promote MatthiasKaiser's thread instead.

I was just looking at The Complete Collection of Character Builds when I found myself in here. Where should I post then?

That's what we were talking about. You were fine - it's our fault for not keeping that list updated.

Matthias_Kaiser's is the most up to date.

Sorry but do you have a link? I couldn't find any Matthias_Kaiser entry in the forum's search engine.

Mar 2, 2010 -- 5:34PM, Locke.Cole wrote:

Sorry but do you have a link? I couldn't find any Matthias_Kaiser entry in the forum's search engine.

It's called "Swashbucklers and Sneak-Thieves: A Rogue Handbook", and was posted by Matthias Kaiser.  

The link is: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

It's not quite done yet, but is (slowly) shaping up to be a complete resource for rogues with material from all available sources.  

Thanks a lot.