The poison idea is an excellent one. This guide is awesome just for reminding us that poison is good.
As for the update, just one correction. For Brutal Scoundrels, you recommend getting some Con.
My opinion? No way in hell. Every Con point detracts from your Str and Dex, and reducing your damage output is almost anathema to a BS. Maybe if they come as a freebie from some race, but investing points in them is a bad idea. In general, it's a better idea to pump your dex sky high to reduce the amount of blows you take. Not to mention, there's a big plus in not putting points in Con: Since Str can handle fortitude, you're going to have an excellent fort defense, so the bonuses con can give you are:
A) Some extra HP, which can be obtained via Toughness.
B) One or two healing surges, which are obtained by Durable.
The only other important use for Con I can see is Steady shooter, but the bonus it gives is one-upped by the Str bonus.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
The poison idea is an excellent one. This guide is awesome just for reminding us that poison is good.
As for the update, just one correction. For Brutal Scoundrels, you recommend getting some Con.
My opinion? No way in hell. Every Con point detracts from your Str and Dex, and reducing your damage output is almost anathema to a BS. Maybe if they come as a freebie from some race, but investing points in them is a bad idea. In general, it's a better idea to pump your dex sky high to reduce the amount of blows you take. Not to mention, there's a big plus in not putting points in Con: Since Str can handle fortitude, you're going to have an excellent fort defense, so the bonuses con can give you are:
A) Some extra HP, which can be obtained via Toughness.
B) One or two healing surges, which are obtained by Durable.
The only other important use for Con I can see is Steady shooter, but the bonus it gives is one-upped by the Str bonus.
You raise a good point. I wouldn't suggest much Con, maybe a 12 at most.
And the poison is awesomeness. Can't wait to write that up.
I dont know that I would use con as a dump stat; but tend to agree that it shouldnt be a priority as a rogue with most builds. If you cant tell; I'm of the opinion that you should be hidden AT ALL TIMES. Naturally, eventually you will fail a stealth check or come up against a foe with crazy Perception; Thats where your Dex stat should come in and enhance your AC.
So in order these are your "LINES OF DEFENSE!" 1.Hidden-If your hiding and none of the monsters have enough perception to match your Stealth; your hard to hit. 2.Light Armor+Dex Mod This should be enough to avoid a few hits 3.IF your a Gnome, you have Fade away, which will get you back into hiding when your finally hit. 4.Hit points. See how this is number 4 on the list? thats why constitution and its healing surges arent that important to a rogue.
Ditto On the poison... Hadnt even occured to me. I look forward to seeing vikings assesments of the monstrous races
Here, the feats are rather lackluster. They're intended to complement powers in minor ways, not to be significant. Still, there are some jewels that just can't be passed up.
Rated in order, in a scale from one asterisk (*) to three (***).
Action Surge (***): AWESOME! This gives a real incentive to spending action points, as all of sudden, that extra power is much more likely to land. If you can, always try to save the big daily powers or the most powerful encounter powers to use with an action point, so that you'll get this juicy bonus.
Alertness (**): The perception bonus is nice, but it'll be a cold day in hell before you are surprised. Get this if you have spare feats, but not in any other circumstances.
Armor proficiencies (*): It's not that they're BAD, per se, but they ask for stats you simply don't have. It's a pity, since hide would be pretty nice, but c'est la vie.
Backstabber (*************...you get the idea): Incredible is the only word that can describe this feat. With a scaleup only surpassed by Power attack, you want this feat, and you want it NOW. It will probably be your first feat, or at most, your second one.
Blade opportunist (**): Brutal scoundrels might want this one, but only after getting the essential feats.
Combat reflexes (*): It's a castrated Blade opportunist. The bonus is so minor even Artful dodgers should ignore it, unless feats are burning a hole in your pocket.
Defensive mobility (** or *, for Brutal Scoundrels and Artful Dodgers, respectively): For brutal scoundrels, this is one of the "pick up if you have spares" feats. For artful dodgers, this one is summarily ignored, as the CHA bonus already makes the chance of an enemy landing an attack incredibly low.
Dodge giants (*): Would be nice, but dwarves suck as a rogue race. Skip it.
Dragonborn frenzy (*): Dragonborns do not make good rogues (Not having a Dex bonus is a travesty), so, even if the feat is quite good, skip it.
Dragonborn sense (*): Completely useless by itself, and it requires a bad race. Skip it, or if it chases you, kill it with fire.
Durable (*** or **, depending on the party composition and encounters): An excellent feat. If you have a Warlord or Cleric friend who will trigger Healing surges for you, this feat can be really good. I rank this as the number one feat to pick up once you have the essentials.
Dwarven Weapon Training (*): Bad race, bad feat for rogues, and if it didn't suck so much for the class, it'd be singing Bad To the Bone.
Eladrin Soldier (*): The race isn't THAT bad, but the feat is incompatible with rogues, so it's a slightly less sucky companion to the feat above.
Elven Precision (***): The elven answer to Action Surge. Get it and never look back. One of the first feats you should get.
Enlarged Dragon Breath (*): Awful, but it's not the feat's fault. The race is the problem.
Escape artist (*): Or how to make a feat out of fail and lose. It's almost as bad as Dilligent was in 3.5, but acrobatics is a good skill.
Far shot (**): Neat, but not essential. Get it as one of the last spares.
Far Throw (*): Same thing as above, only worse.
Fast runner (*): If you have to run or charge, you're doing it wrong.
Ferocious rebuke (*): Tieflings are so-so, and this feat honours the race.
Group Insight (**): Very meh, but it stacks with Improved initiative if the group took it. If you made the mistake of being a half elf, the feat is at least salvageable.
Halfling Agility (***): While not quite on the insane level of Elven precision and Action surge, this is a pretty good feat, and an excellent choice for the most excellent halfling race.
Hellfire blood (*): You have no fire or fear powers, and you don't want a fire weapon for reasons explained below. We savvy here?
Human Perseverance (***): Notice it is Saving throws, not save defenses. This means this feat works for the death saving throws, and with those "save ends" powers and abilities, and the like. Since it's one of the few ways to make ending those nasty status effects more likely, this feat ranks high in the "spares" list.
Improved Initiative (***): The day this feat stops being useful, meteors will fall from the sky. Get it after the other essentials.
Jack of all trades (**): Seems really useless, but it's very nice for those untrained rolls. If you put your spare point in Int after maxing your key stats, you'll be able to get this feat at epic by retraining something. It's not that much by then, but reducing the gap between trained and untrained skills never hurt anybody.
Light Step (*): Pretty fluffy. +1 to Stealth and Acrobatics is nice, but not enough to warrant spending a feat.
Linguist (*): You have no use for this. Let the wizard take it.
Long Jumper (**): Could come pretty handy. Get it if you like the jump powers as a spare feat.
Lost In The Crowd (***): While being adjacent to more than one enemy is bad, almost anything is larger than you, so getting an extra edge against those big oafs is invaluable. Excellent as a spare feat.
Mounted Combat (*): You probably won't use mounts, so it's not too useful.
Nimble Blade (***): An awesome feat. More AB is always handy. One of the essentials for anyone who doesn't use crossbows.
Power Attack (*** or *, depeding on being a BS or not): Brutal scoundrels want this feat to add excellent damage, Artful Dodgers can't get it without sacrifices. Simple as that, for BS's, this one is essential.
Powerful Charge (*): You do not charge or run. Period.
Press The Advantage (**): Comes in handy for Artful Dodgers, though it's probably retrainable by the paragon tier.
Quick Draw (*): Doesn't stack with improved initiative, so it's pretty useless.
Ritual caster (*): You do not have the stats to cast rituals. Skip it unless it's for fluff purposes.
Shield feats (*): You do not want shields. Skip it.
Skill focus (**): "'Cause sonny...when you want to succeed, there's skill focus". Essentially, it boosts your chances of succeeding at a skill check enormously. I'd get it for Thievery as a spare, but not for anything else.
Skill training (Unrated): Depends on the group.
Sure Climber (*): Too situational. You're probably not going to do many climbs in combat.
Surprise Knockdown (***): Eat your heart out, Artful Dodgers, Brutal Scoundrels got a better version of your lame Press The Advantage!
Toughness (***): Awesome. You're squishy, so when an attack finally lands, you REALLY want this one to help cushion the blow.
Two weapon fighting feats (*): If you're not going to multiclass into ranger, skip 'em.
Weapon Focus (***): Take this one. The bonus really adds up.
Weapon Proficiency (Unrated): I'd take the rapier if I were a BS, but otherwise, I'd refrain from it.
Wintertouched (Either * or ***, see explanation): This one seems useless, but if you take a Frost weapon (And you should, it's an awesome enhancement), and combine this one with Lasting Frost in the paragon tier, you're making sure to get Combat advantage each turn against enemies who aren't resistant to cold.
I'll do the paragon and epic feats later.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Nicely Done Armisael! Your evaluation of the heroic tier feats has inspired me to give the skills a similar treatment. I hope you do not mind If I borrow your Rating system.
Acrobatics[**]- This depends entirely on your DM, it does alot of useful stuff, and has alot of great potential RP use, but many dms are never going to use it. The powers for acrobatics are an odd mix, but seem kinda so so. Acrobatics Powers: 1.Tumble: Useful, but honestly,seems inferior to other utility powers. 2.Ignoble Escape: Lets you escape from a mark once per encounter... honestly if you get marked your doing something wrong. 3.Certain Freedom: This would make an awesome Encounter power... too bad its a daily. 4.Close Qaurters: only works on large or bigger targets. AND inflicts a penalty on you AND prevents you from hiding...not worth a +4 AB. 5.Dazzling Acrobatics: ABSOLUTELY AMAZING! this one is great! Note that you cant get it til lvl 22.
Athletics[* for dodger, *** for brute] This is a useful skill for brutes as they will be better at it, it does Climb, Jump,escapes from grabs, and swim. The powers are ok providing a couple of Super jumps, and a very nice dodge at higher levels. Athletics powers: 1.Nimble Climb: Climb at full speed instead of half. Ok I guess. but as far as utility powers go not that great. 2.Great Leap: Basically Super jump, Seems ok but not useful in combat. 3.Leaping Dodge:A reaction skill that prevents you from being hit,this one is GREAT 4.Cloud Jump:Double Jump anyone? Seems a little excessive. No obvious combat use.
Bluff[***] This is a must have skill for Artful Dodgers,on a succsesfful check it will allow you to hide without cover once per encounter, and it can also give you CA on a sucsessful check. Thats TWO opprotunities for a sneak attack, and thats just the distinct combat abilities it gives you. It's got a myriad of out of combat uses too. In addition it has a pretty decent set of powers. Bluff Powers: 1.Master of Deceit: Lets you reroll a bluff check. No influence on the value of bluff as a skill since you need bluff for it to be useful. 2.Slippery Mind: +2 to a single will save; Not bad. Not Great either. 3.Raise the stakes:Your critical hit range goes up,but so does your enemys...Risky but potentially useful.
Dungeoneering
Its wisdom based, and handles things like monster Identification. No Powers Here.
Insight
Again, Its wisdom based, useful out of battle, but not so much in battle. No Powers here Either.
Intimidate[***] The ability to make bloodied creatures surrender seems pretty good. Its Charisma based, which means as an Artful dodger you should be pretty good at it. Only one Power, and it seems to have pretty limited applications. Intimidate Power: 1.Mob mentality lets you improve your allys CHA attacks. Seems kind of specific for an encounter power.
Perception[**] Its listen Spot and Search all rolled into one. UNFORTUNATLEY, Its also wisdom based.... No Powers for Perception.
Stealth[*************************************************************************] You get this no matter what but I cant emphasize enough how important it is; ITS SOOOOOOOO important that "Skill Focus: Stealth" is totally worth taking as a feat. Stealth Powers: All rogues will have access to these so Im not going to discuss them in a ROGUE guide they are more of a concern for multiclass rogues.
Streetwise
Only serves one real purpose: Its the New Gather Information, this is rarely a terribly important skill, it usually results in more fluff, and little else. No Powers.
Thievery[***] This one you get for free,but it bears mentioning anyway. Lets face it Open lock and Disable trap are basically your primary purpose outside of combat. Pickpocket is pretty pathetic in 4e. Sleight of hand is OK. Thievery Powers: All rogues will have access to these so Im not going to discuss them in a ROGUE guide they are more of a concern for multiclass rogues.
My Final Judgement: Stealth and thievery are your two freebies, but theres almost no question that Stealth is important enough to warrant a skill focus feat. If your going for a combat optimization then we have to look at Brutal and artful Seperatley
For Brutal:Athletics and acrobatics seems Like good choices, after that its really up to your stat array, wisdom has a definite use here, it would be nice to take intimidate and bluff, but your almost never going to make the intimidate check for surrenders without a pretty stellar charisma; and the bluff checks arent going to be easy either. So if your wisdom is higher go that route..the checks are easier...
For Artful:Acrobatics, is still a good bet, but your GOOD at intimidate and bluff, and they both give you more power in combat and you shouldnt pass that up. that leaves on free spot, If you have a decent wisdom score (How did THAT happen?) thenyou can pick one of the wisdom based skills. If not, you might as well take streetwise, its not usually a terribly useful skill, BUT its better than a crippled skill that you cant make the DC for.
In 4E Skill choices matter in combat FAR more than in 3.5. That bluff or intimidate check can be the difference between winning or losing; or more often the difference between a fight thats over in 3 rounds, or one that drags on for 7 or 8 rounds and reduces your parties limited resources.
EDIT 1: Suggestion to viking: after going through the skills it looks like the artful dodger winds up with Better scores on a better number of skills thank to his high charisma. That seems to give him a slight edge in that department. Might be worth mentioning in the Artful vs Brutal section.
EDIT 2: There we go pretty sure I got all of the skill dependant powers in there..totally open to any disagreements about the value of the skills based on the powers they grant you access to.
Edit 3: straightened out references to powers as skills...sorry about that not enough sleep......
Sometimes you cant hit the target you want to from your place of hiding because you dont have line of sight. If you take deft strike you can step out of hiding make a sneak attack, then use fleeting ghost to move back into a Cover position and hide again.
And I forgot to mention that this doesn't work anyway. As son as you stop hiding it stops giving you CA and you lose all your damage (well some of it anyway).
Deft strike is a decent pick anyway -thought I prefer Piercing and Sly for a Dodger- but this is not a reason why.
