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SeamusJ wrote:

Well, if you actually want to be a defender, then the first obvious challenge is going to be your low number of healing surges.

I hadn't added in the Durable feat, so that would be a good start. Obviously, there's not much room for it during Heroic Tier (due to all the multiclass feats).

On the other hand, aren't there a lot of Fighter builds that don't focus on having a high CON? Do those builds survive by using the Durable feat, or are there other ways to add survivability?

joemama1512 wrote:

I think the problem is the lack of damage.
A fighter is generally regarded as a Defender with some Striker built in.

Huh, I had always considered the fighter as a Defender with some Controller built in (although options like Tempest Fighter certainly lean towards Striker). Regardless, this particular build is intended to be a close-blast Controller with some Defender built in.

joemama1512 wrote:

I think the problem is the lack of damage.
As is, your fighter has NO IMPLEMENT and would at least need quickdraw to bust out a wand or whatever.

This build uses the Star of Corellon as an implement. Sorry, I meant to make that clear in the comments. I'll update the initial post. The Star of Corellon occupies the Holy Symbol slot (which the Fighter-Wizard wasn't using anyway) but can be used as an arcane implement. So there's no need to switch between wand and weapon.

ironpoet wrote:

On the other hand, aren't there a lot of Fighter builds that don't focus on having a high CON? Do those builds survive by using the Durable feat, or are there other ways to add survivability?

There's a few different common builds that don't focus on CON:
Glaive fighters use reach and combat superiority to survive: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1048360

Some builds are essentially strikers capable of being a backup defender: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php? … stcount=41

But if you are the group's main defender, your group is basically done for the day when you run out of surges.

SeamusJ wrote:

There's a few different common builds that don't focus on CON:
Glaive fighters use reach and combat superiority to survive: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1048360

Some builds are essentially strikers capable of being a backup defender: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php? … stcount=41

But if you are the group's main defender, your group is basically done for the day when you run out of surges.

Fair enough. I updated the build to take Durable at level 6. Of course, 12-13 healing surges still may not be enough, but encounter-long utilities like Blur and Stoneskin should at least help with survivability.

joemama1512 wrote:

Yeah, but without cleric or pally multiclassing, you cannot actually wear a Symbol as far as I know.

Well, you CAN wear it, but it does nothing.

That's certainly interesting. I wasn't aware of that problem. Looking at the "Holy Symbols" section (PHB p. 232), it looks like the Properties of Holy Symbols really are off-limits to non-Cleric/Paladins. So unless they add a feat that lets you access Holy Symbol properties, the build needs to change.

Are there any rules objections to wielding a Spiked Gauntlet while holding an Implement? If not, I'll update the build using that.

ironpoet wrote:

Fair enough. I updated the build to take Durable at level 6. Of course, 12-13 healing surges still may not be enough, but encounter-long utilities like Blur and Stoneskin should at least help with survivability.

What do you use STR for after level 11? Have you considered pumping INT and CON instead of INT and STR?

SeamusJ wrote:

What do you use STR for after level 11? Have you considered pumping INT and CON instead of INT and STR?

You still have multiple Fighter Powers until late in Epic Tier (when all your low level powers have been replaced). If you start a campaign at a higher level, you could focus more on CON. If the character is going to be playable from levels 1-30, then you probably need to focus on STR as well as INT.

I suppose, once you reach Epic Tier, you could use your last two attribute bumps on CON (or maybe WIS) instead of STR. I wasn't sure about some of the final choices at Epic Level, so those would be interesting options.

PiggyK wrote:

It takes away the fey aspect, but a Warforged could get an embedded/attached implement (don't remember which one allows it to not take a slot - I think the former, but I'm at work and don't have access to the article).

You could easily hit all the same stat requirements with a Warforged (Str 16/Con 12/Dex 14/Int 16/Wis 13/Cha 8 comes to mind).

I could have sworn I had a reason for not using a Warforged, but I can't remember what it was. (I may have been trying to maintain a starting INT of 17 at that point, so I needed a race with an INT bonus.)

A warforged would definitely work for this build. I'm still not sure how implements embedded in your arms or chest interact with magic items in your "arms" slot or "holy symbol" slot. But even if you had to give up a magic shield, it would probably still be worth it.

I may write that up that build and post it here as well. Thanks!

joemama1512 wrote:

I think the problem is the lack of damage.
I personally like the Tempest Fighter approach with a Staff of Ruin. It is just a lot more elegant.
You ALWAYS have an implement, starting from level 1. Furthermore, your weapon is just as good as any other fighter...
Its a 1d8/1d8 double weapon that gives you +1AC. You get a nice damage bonus to your spells via Ruin, and d10 crits with weapon AND spell attacks.

Your high INT lets you stay in light armor and get tempest bonuses to your attacks.

Stats-wise, a Storm Genesai is looking at:

STR 18
DEX 10
CON 11 (yuck)
INT 18
WIS 13
CHA 8
(you can lower STR or INT to fill out other stats as desired)

I forgot to respond to this earlier. Tempest Fighter with a staff is definitely a good approach as well, and I'd love to see a full build to see how it stacks up (I think it's weapon defense would be a slightly higher, but it's overall defense would be slightly lower).

Honestly, the main reason I didn't go this route is that Staff Fighting is a Dragon Magazine feat, which (a) Many DM's don't allow, (b) I don't have access to anyway (although I can pretty much guess the details).

(Also, I was trying to maintain the Tide of Iron + Polearm Momentum combination at Epic Tier, but it turns out that won't work without using a Warforged.)

joemama1512 wrote:

I just wish the original build was a bit more viable. I mean...it will work, but it just has issues with the whole implementation/weapon thing.

WotST fixes it but then you lose the power swaps. Without it, you are stuck with a kludgy system for casting wizard spells... or going without an implement which really sucks.

Still, hopefully your DM will let you free action to hold the sword offhand or quick sheathe it, then Quickdraw a Wand/Staff/Orb to use a wizard power... and vice versa.

I guess I don't understand what issues you're referring to - I thought we'd solved the weapon/implement problem.
- You can wield a spiked gauntlet and an implement simultaneously.
- You can wield a spiked shield and an implement simultaneously.
- A warforged can wield a longsword simultaneously with an embedded implement.
- A Fighter can gain Tempest Fighter benefits from a staff implement using Staff Fighting (if your DM allows Dragon Magazine feats)

None of these require weapon switching or quickdraw, and I don't think any of them would be considered kludgy. Am I missing something?

joemama1512 wrote:

*The tempest fighter with staff works great.

*Warforged I suppose works fine as well with the built in implement thing.

Yeah, I should really post a build of the tempest fighter as well.

joemama1512 wrote:

*The spiked gauntlet thing I am not sure about. You would use Shield and Spiked Gauntlet/Implement? Wouldnt that be rather underwhelming as far as attack damage goes?

That just seems wrong, beating on people with a spiked glove while carrying a fragile Orb or wand... or a long staff!

I don't know - I don't have a huge problem picturing it (well... except for punching someone with an orb in your hand - that does sound weird). I'd probably try to punch somebody in the face if they tried to grab my wand. Out of the four options, it's probably the hardest to picture, though.

As for damage, it's definitely a little low (in fact, you'd probably want to stick with a longsword during most of Heroic Tier). On the other hand, we're mainly using the weapon for opportunity attacks and the occasional at-will attack, where the difference between 1[1d6]+STR and 1[1d10]+STR isn't huge. We've replaced most of multiple [W] attacks with Wizard powers, and the remaining dailies are all Stances (that add regeneration or an auto 1[W] damage to adjacent enemies).

I admit that low weapon damage is a liabilty for this build (which is why the Tempest or Warforged options are probably superior if your DM allows Dragon Magazine feats or races). On the other hand, the focus of the build isn't on high damage, but rather on throwing a -3 attack penalty onto as many opponents as possible (i.e. lowering overall enemy damage rather than killing them quicker).

(I suppose the shorter version of that is that there's a reason I called the build a "Front Line Controller" instead of a "Front Line Defender".)

joemama1512 wrote:

*Ditto with the spiked shield. You would carry a heavy shield, then a light spiked shield with an implement?

If carrying a light shield you cannot wield anything with that hand. You can only HOLD an implement. So I don't see how that would work.

No heavy shield - the spiked shield would double as both shield and weapon. So you would carry an implement in your main hand, then a spiked shield in your off-hand. You would lose some defense vs. the heavy shield, but you'd still qualify for Shield Specialization. Plus, you wouldn't give up your hands slot (like you would with the Spiked Gauntlets), and you'd still have access to Fighter powers requiring a shield.

Weapon damage still sucks, though!

Ander Spectacular wrote:

I think in certain ways you go out of way to take more and more wizard powers when you really shouldn't be. Especially powers Eternal Seeker. Your level 22 Utility should probably be Own the Battlefield(Warlord 22). That is wonderful control. I would also look at things like Blast of Cold(damage + slow on a miss), Elemental Maw, Illusory Wall(Utility 10 from Dragon). I think you need some actual weapon attacks too.

The power selection is definitely something I'm interested in tweaking.

- Illusory Wall is a great suggestion. It causes an attack roll against opponents trying to get through the wall, so it marks while it's defending. Great choice for this build!
- Blast of Cold and Elemental Maw are also good choices, but I don't know if I could give up Prismatic Beams and Prismatic Spray. Close Burst 5, enemies only, and they attack all three NAD's? That's pretty amazing.
- Own the Battlefield is an interesting suggestion. I'm not sure exactly how I would use it for this build (especially since we already have so many pushing options.) Also, I chose the level 22 Utilities with particular combos in mind:

Shadow Band + Forest Ghost = Encounter-long, Unbreakable Invisibility
Since multi-marking is going to make you a target, this combo will give enemies a -5 penalty to hit you (as long as they're not using blast powers).

Chain Lightning/Legion's Hold + Clarion Call of the Astral Sea = Full Healing, plus Unescapable Attack Penalty
One of the weaknesses of marking is that enemies can ignore the penalty by either attacking you, or making an area attack that includes you. If you're close to death, you can make a huge area attack that marks as many enemies as possible, then cast Clarion Call of the Astral Sea to take you off of the battlefield for a turn. Since you can't be targetted, enemies can't negate the -3 attack penalty.

- I'm interested in hearing suggestions about which weapon powers you would keep. I had been working under the assumption that Arcane Reach, Spell Accuracy, and a decent number of "Enemies Only" powers would make the single-target powers unnecessary. Which ones would you keep?

Ander Spectacular wrote:

Optimization wise, I think warforged is the way to go... Without Warforged you are just as good going human as anything else, though Eladrin or any + int race is good too.

I agree that the Warforged is looking like the best choice right now, since it has the most flexibility in weapon and implement choices.

I had originally chosen Eladrin because the +Dex made it possibly to qualify for Arcane Reach and Shield Specialization. I'm still not sure how important Arcane Reach is to this build, but I feel like it would add a huge amount of options for where and how to use your powers.

On the other hand, if you wanted to drop Dexterity, you could pump CON up to at least a 14 starting value, giving you more healing surges and qualifying you for Armor Specialization (Plate) in Paragon Tier. A better starting CON might make the Battlerage Feature a decent choice as well... I may have to play with that option a bit to see how it compares.

Ander Spectacular wrote:

The warforged build has Shield Spec twice and doesn't need toughness. Toughness sucks and Inescapable Force isn't necessary or that helpful.

Thanks for catching the typo - it should be fixed now.

You're right that Inescapable Force isn't that useful. Honestly, I only added it because I'd chosen a Force Weapon to use with the Solid Sound feat, so I figured I might as well add the other Force-related feat as well. All the Epic Level feats (other than Spell Accuracy and Arcane Mastery) were chosen pretty arbitrarily. I was tempted to just take the trio of Iron Will, Great Fortitude, and Lightning Reflexes, but that felt kind of boring. I'm definitely open to any suggestions on feat choices, since I'm not sure what else to add at Epic Level. (Heroic and Paragon Tier feats are mostly set in stone, though.)

As for toughness, I chose it to make the character more durable, but I'm open to changing it. What would you recommend?

TheMormegil wrote:

Don't know if this was mentioned, but Eternal Seeker does not allow to swap utility powers...

Wow... I had completely missed that.

PHB p. 175
Seeker of the Many Paths (21st level): When you gain a class encounter or daily power by gaining a level, you can choose your new power from any class.

I'll update the build. Howl of Defiance is a level 22 Fighter utility that's kind of custom-made for this build anyway. I'll have to decide which of the current powers I drop.

Thanks for letting me know!