Community

I grow tired of the following:

"Dwarves suck as fighters, they don't get a str bonus."
"Warlords NEED 18 str!"
"A wizard should go 18 int, maybe even 20."

There are uncountable threads and builds like this. The basic argument seems to be as follows:

1. Hitting is better than missing.
2. Hit bonuses are hard to find in 4e.
3. Therefore, A bonus to hit is the best possible benefit, and outweighs all other concerns.

1 and 2 are true. 3 is for crazy people. Characters are a gestalt, focusing on a single factor to the detriment of others results in sub-standard builds.

"But hitting is most important! If you miss you get nothing from your powers!"

Yes, but the choice is not between hitting and missing. This argument is over 2 attribute points, a 1 point of modifier. A 5% difference in hit chance. A character with a 16 primary attribute hits only one less time in twenty than a character with an 18. In exchange you gain 7 build points. That's enough to give your character a 15, qualifying them for weapon mastery in epic tier. Or just boosting their defenses and secondary attributes. In 4e most characters need two attributes and quite a few need 3. There are no more half-orc barbarians.

I freely admit, there are some builds well served by 18 primaries. Those builds are: Artful rogue, Most rangers, Warlocks, MC hammer, laser clerics, blaster wizards... notice a theme? All of those builds are built for damage. Hitting is staggeringly important to increase your damage. Each point is essentially a 5% multiplier to your total damage (ignoring things like hammer rhythm, which you really shouldn't ignore). However, if damage isn't your job, that 5% hit bonus is a minor concern. With action points, elven rerolls, wands of accuracy, and so on powers which need to hit, can. Leave consistent damage output to the strikers.

Here are a few builds I think really benefit from taking a 16 in their primary.

Tank: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1062073
Master of puppets: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1039126
Polearm cleric: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1046708

I'd also suggest any non-gensai tac warlord build and charisma pallies who want HBO.

So please stop this. Not everyone needs the damage, some builds focus on doing other things well. 18 is nice, but 16 in a primary attribute is fine.

Dwarves are the exception because Second Winding is "cheaper" for them (Minor instead of a Standard). But in most cases, not having a good score in the attribute that is used most often does hurt.

Especially Wizards since Reflex and Fortitude aren't that much lower than AC (sometimes 1, but at low levels it isn't unusual for them to be the same) so they are attacking the same stat without a proficiency bonus.

And Dwarves make fine Fighters if they focus on Reliable powers. Missing with a Daily is terrible when it isn't reliable.

"Reliable daily powers must be the scariest thing to monsters because it if hits, they take a lot of damage, but if it misses, the monster just knows what the next standard action is going to be!" -Anthony D. on Reliable Powers and Monsters

Rothe wrote:

The "it is only 5%" argument is very subjective and misleading. If the basic assumption is 50-50, then getting +1 means hitting 10% more often.

this is not true. your to-hit has just gone from 50 to 55 so there really is only 5% different. sure, your hit to miss margin has changed by 10%, but this is really irrelevant. all that counts is % to-hit - and that changes by just 10%.

i like 16s and even 15s (secondary for multiclass) as a starting point, but you can't deny that 18 looks sexy. there are only few classes out there that can focus on an 18(w/o racials) and not get penalized by it in other values, like defenses, HP or AC.

as for dwarven fighters, whoever said that has no clue. wis 18 can be important, too. and it's really cheap to get as a dwarf.

Lokathor wrote:

The thing is.... something like half the time the class is already setup so that you don't really need more than two stats.

Examples from the 3 characters I play:
Warforged Hellock: 14, 18, 11, 14, 14, 8
Bugbear Fighter: 18, 13, 16, 8, 14, 10
Elf Ranger: 10, 11, 20, 8, 16, 10

and still, you did not take many 18s without racials. and where you did, the ranger has a base fort defense of 11. everything that targets fort will hit this elf.

whitebaron wrote:

this is not true. your to-hit has just gone from 50 to 55 so there really is only 5% different.

No.

55 is 1.1*50. In other words, 55 is 110% of 50, which - guess what - is a 10% increase.

A change from 50% to 55% is a 5 point difference.