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5 years ago ::
Jul 31, 2008 - 10:01AM
#11
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You can't use an Orb of Inevitable Continuance on a (save ends) effect. And the effect you'd achieve would be insignificant when compared to an epic level Orb of Imposition anyway. I insist, your build is great for going nova in one encounter, but if you want to stunlock or take care of more than one enemy at a time there are better ways of doing it.
You don't use it on the save ends effect. You use it on the "until the end of your next turn effect". I.E. the stun. You've got 2-3 encounter stunning powers, and 3 AoE save ends. The AoE save ends are for groups, the single targets are for ones you miss and for solos.
Against a single enemy you only need a few of these to come back, and at least one will.
Then you can Epic Trick ALL of your dailies back. Even the utility powers.
Legion's Hold hits the entire battlefield with the possibility of rolling twice per opponent. So yes, it was strictly better there.
Uhhh, no its not. Strictly better would mean its better in every way. Its not. Making legions hold roll twice means you don't get access to both legions and DS...
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5 years ago ::
Jul 31, 2008 - 10:20AM
#12
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Two Orbizards were the cause of a 5-man party being able to defeat a pair of Orcuses in a level 30 combat playtest I ran  . Anyway, you're underestimating just how bad a save penalty the orb can impose, sirrah. Since you seem to be focused on the epic-level stuff a wizard can do, let's examine that. A level 28 elf wizard/cleric/Divine Oracle/Demigod can reasonably have 28 Wisdom (16 base + 2 elf + 8 level ups + 2 Demigod) and Spell Focus. Thus, that imposes a -11 save penalty with Orb of Imposition.
A standard monster that gets Orbed with that potency literally has no chance of making the save at all. A standard monster has only a 10% chance of saving, and a solo has a 25% chance. These chances get even lower with a Doomsayer in the party. A Taclord in the party makes sure that your stun power actually hits.
Two staffizords with 8 int can stunlock three orcuses(probably more) for 12 rounds. OH NOES!
I am not underestimating how bad a penalty they can impose, its -12. Enough to get a Solo to fail 85% of the time, really impressive actually.
But getting a solo to fail 85% of the time is unnecessary because you have stunning powers coming out of your ass as a high level wizard, so long as they hit(hello re-rolls!), and you can keep them.
I mean, take a pair of any divine oracle/demigod elfs which burn through their encounter powers as fast as they can. They get 3 rolls per attack and when they hit each orcus will attack the other. You don't even need the orb, the wizards just have the two solos kill each other with encounter powers. You barely even need other players.
The question should not be "can it kill a solo?" yea, it can. All of these can, pretty darn easily too. The question is "how does it perform against groups of enemies over the course of an adventure?"
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5 years ago ::
Jul 31, 2008 - 10:29AM
#13
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Orb is not nearly as strong as you think it is.
Oh, I missed this comment before. Sorry, but having to roll a natural 21 on a d20 to save is not what I would call normal or balanced. I (or Ads for that matter) don't have to think about whether it is powerful or not either, because we have seen enough of it in action.
The AoE save ends are for groups, the single targets are for ones you miss and for solos.
The point is, you'll have to keep using your AoE powers, becauses enemies WILL save. You are severely underestimating the ability to forget about one opponent.
Uhhh, no its not. Strictly better would mean its better in every way. Its not. Making legions hold roll twice means you don't get access to both legions and DS...
With a 99.75% plus EA chance of hitting and an extra opponent affected it was a strictly better choice there. In. That. Situation. Get it.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 31, 2008 - 10:43AM
#14
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Oh, I missed this comment before. Sorry, but having to roll a natural 21 on a d20 to save is not what I would call normal or balanced. I (or Ads for that matter) don't have to think about whether it is powerful or not either, because we have seen enough of it in action.
I didn't say it wasn't strong. I said it wasn't as strong as you think it is.
The point is, you'll have to keep using your AoE powers, becauses enemies WILL save. You are severely underestimating the ability to forget about one opponent.
The point is, you can keep using your AoE powers. Because enemies will save whether or not you have the orb. Stunning everyone for 4 rounds > stunning 1 guy for 10 rounds and everyone for 2 rounds. You have encounter powers that you can use to keep that 1 or 2 guys continually out of the fight.
With a 99.75% plus EA chance of hitting and an extra opponent affected it was a strictly better choice there. In. That. Situation. Get it.
O.K. so now we are only talking about powers that are being used after a taclord buffs you with a fear guy in the party while being surrounded with no friendlies in sight?
Great, fat lot of good that did us.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 31, 2008 - 11:25AM
#15
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Date Joined:
Jan 22, 2007
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The core of the issue:
1 re-roll/encounter
3 re-rolls/day.
Every time you use a power that attacks will(which will be all of them) you roll twice and take the best.
Every time you roll a 18,19, or 20 on one of those powers that you are rolling twice for, you do not lose the ability.
Trickster's Disposition says "If you roll an 18 or higher on the d20 when making the first attack roll for an encounter or daily attack power, that power is not expended". This means the legality of using the Divine Oracle's rolling twice when attacking Will, your Elven Accuracy reroll, and your Sly Fortune's Favor rolls for triggering Trickster's Disposition is very disputable.
Uhhh, no its not. Strictly better would mean its better in every way. Its not. Making legions hold roll twice means you don't get access to both legions and DS...
Also, why do you keep on bringing up the Blood Mage when both your main build (the wizard/cleric/Divine Oracle/Deadly Trickster) and our traditional orbizard build don't use Blood Mage?
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5 years ago ::
Jul 31, 2008 - 11:41AM
#16
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I didn't say it wasn't strong. I said it wasn't as strong as you think it is.
I repeat that I don't need to assess the power of Orb of Imposition based on conjectures, I have seen enough encounters with and without it.
The point is, you can keep using your AoE powers.
Then you aren't using your Orbs of Inevitable Continuance.
Because enemies will save whether or not you have the orb.
False.
Stunning everyone for 4 rounds > stunning 1 guy for 10 rounds and everyone for 2 rounds. You have encounter powers that you can use to keep that 1 or 2 guys continually out of the fight.
First of all, 50 is 5 times greater than 10 (let's assume that save ends effects disappear after 5 minutes). Second, enemies have move actions too, they won't be together just so that you can hit them easily. Third, you have to hit each enemy that saves each round. Fourth, your stun encounter powers don't target Will, so you will lose them 85% of the time. And last, your statement is only true for homogeneous encounters.
O.K. so now we are only talking about powers that are being used after a taclord buffs you with a fear guy in the party while being surrounded with no friendlies in sight?
Great, fat lot of good that did us.
I don't even get what you are saying here - this has nothing to do with Prismatic Spray lockdown if you are implying that. Look, if you can't understand that this is a screenshot of actual gameplay, that's fine for me.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 31, 2008 - 1:01PM
#17
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
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1. STOP ARGUING RIGHT NOW. It's getting very ridiculous.
2. Adslahnit, you have trolled this thread and by your continual arguing have discouraged actual constructive criticism of this interesting idea. If you want to talk about 'superior builds,' why bring up Orb of Imposition? Why not just talk about the Demigod epic destiny instead? Or perhaps I should burst in and bring up the Blood Mage brokenness and insist that it's completely better than this build as well?
Why not? Because that's not what this thread is about!
3. Criticizing a build as weak because it's not the strongest build there is is not only disingenuous, it's rude and stupid. As was already said, this build is an attempt to innovate, and provide a wizard build that is not the usual boring orb wizard. I personally don't like orb wizards because I don't like boosting Wis. Will you insist that all my builds are terrible for that?
Stop trolling the thread and examine the build on its own merits, or get out.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 31, 2008 - 1:24PM
#18
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I honestly don't see why the build couldn't be an elf orb wizard... Wand just seems like an arbitrary choice here.
Basically, Epic Trickster gets a better version of Epic Resurgence as an ED feature. This power can be used for awesome, but questions about *how awesome* that is relative to other builds shouldn't just be dismissed out of hand.
(As a re-roll is not a new roll, but alters an existing roll, it should certainly still qualify, just so we can put that argument to rest).
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5 years ago ::
Jul 31, 2008 - 2:23PM
#19
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Date Joined:
Mar 13, 2005
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Well if you wanted to play a Elf Orb Trickster
Str 8
Dex 16
Con 11
Int 16
Wis 16
Cha 12
At Levels 8,14,18, 28 +1 Int/Dex
At Levels 4, 24,+1 Int/Wis
Ending Up with
Str 10
Dex 22
Con 13
Int 24
Wis 20
Cha 14
Not all that great compared to the Elf Orb Archmage or Demigod
Another option for a wizard trickster is
Tiefling Wizard/Warlock/Doomsayer/Trickster
Starting
Str 8
Dex 10
Con 13
Int 16
Wis 16
Cha 16
+1 Int/Cha every stat increase
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5 years ago ::
Jul 31, 2008 - 2:29PM
#20
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Date Joined:
Jul 24, 2008
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