|
5 years ago ::
Jul 31, 2008 - 3:52PM
#21
|
|
|
1. STOP ARGUING RIGHT NOW. It's getting very ridiculous.
Welcome to the Internet.
2. Adslahnit, you have trolled this thread and by your continual arguing have discouraged actual constructive criticism of this interesting idea.
Beyond his first post he has provided constructive criticism.
If you want to talk about 'superior builds,' why bring up Orb of Imposition?
It's suggested in the first post that this character should focus on stunlocking, but the lack of Orb of Imposition is counterproducent for what this build is good at, which is resource preservation.
Or perhaps I should burst in and bring up the Blood Mage brokenness and insist that it's completely better than this build as well?
Why not? Because that's not what this thread is about!
OP started an argument about Blood Mages, didn't he?
3. Criticizing a build as weak because it's not the strongest build there is is not only disingenuous, it's rude and stupid. As was already said, this build is an attempt to innovate, and provide a wizard build that is not the usual boring orb wizard. I personally don't like orb wizards because I don't like boosting Wis. Will you insist that all my builds are terrible for that?
I was just pointing out that, as presented, this build would work better if it focused on other things than stunlocking. But I guess that's rude and stupid, isn't it?
Stop trolling the thread and examine the build on its own merits, or get out.
People are providing suggestions and alternatives based on gameplay experience. Stop flaming a legitimate argument about whether this build is hurt at its intended function by the lack of a cornerstone ability. Or something like that 
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Jul 31, 2008 - 4:31PM
#22
|
Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
|
Response by means of quotes:
Pick as many vs will daily and encounter powers as you can. Pump dex and int, 13 wisdom, have 12 charisma
Note that the build is based on having a low Wis score to start, so you'd have to redo the starting stats with an Orb build, which would spread through the whole tree.
I'm sorry, but this is just a very bad build.
Okay, he has a right to say that if it's legitimately worthless...his reasoning?
Not only is the Wand of Accuracy the worst of the three Arcane Implement Masteries beause going Dexterity/Intelligence going to make your Fortitude and Will go down the drain, but you're also missing out on the one big thing that makes paragon-tier and epic-level wizards so overpowered: Orb of Imposition. Seriously, Prismatic Spray and Legion's Hold, anyone?
So the build is "very bad" because it dares to choose Wand of Accuracy instead of Orb of Imposition? The nerve!
His reasoning that it is a bad build isn't based on the build's playability, but rather on how intensely powerful a completely different build is.
The build you have accomplishes its goal of getting high attack rolls at the epic levels, which ensure that your dailies hit and give you a relatively high chance of getting them back. However, I don't think that goal practical, because by the time you get to the epic levels, the only reason why your epic-level dailies are actually good is because they can be Orbed. Prismatic Spray and Legion's Hold have much less of an impact without that major save penalty from the Orb.
I'm not sure about whether or not Destructive Salutation works for Orb of Imposition, because it's not actually a wizard spell. So you'll have to wait till level 25 for Prismatic Spray till you get your first stun (save ends) wizard spell.
Here again, it's all about being an Orb wizard. He even goes so far as to insist that endgame wizards aren't even good without the Orb(seriously, if you think the Orb is the only reason Legion's hold is good, you shouldn't be playing a wizard).
The rest of the argument is back and forth about orb versus not-orb.
Now to your post:
Welcome to the Internet.
I've heard that one a few times, and it continues to fail to impress me. If you think being on the internet justifies being rude, stay on 4chan please.
Beyond his first post he has provided constructive criticism.
1. As you imply, his first post was not constructive criticism. Oddly enough, the rest of his posts are simply supporting the claims of the first one.
2.His 'constructive criticism' is rejecting the entire idea based on a different type of wizard build. There's no analysis of the particular feats involved, no suggestions as to what feats or powers might improve the concept. Instead, every post is proposing the OP abandon the entire idea and stick with the 'orthodoxy' of the Orb of Imposition.
It's suggested in the first post that this character should focus on stunlocking, but the lack of Orb of Imposition is counterproducent for what this build is good at, which is resource preservation.
Once again, it's telling the OP to abandon his idea, with no analysis of the workability of the original build.
Here's an example of real constructive criticism: If the Orb is required for stunlocking, then it might be a good idea to focus on tactics other than stunlocking(followed by a list of powers that can be useful in other ways).
The best part about this:
I was just pointing out that, as presented, this build would work better if it focused on other things than stunlocking. But I guess that's rude and stupid, isn't it?
There you go, so you did provide constructive criticism(I'll take you on your word that you were actually point that out)!
However:
My post was directed primarily at Adslahnit. Your posts, while somewhat argumentative and perpetuating Ad's foolishness, are somewhat less objectionable.
People are providing suggestions and alternatives based on gameplay experience. Stop flaming a legitimate argument about whether this build is hurt at its intended function by the lack of a cornerstone ability. Or something like that
1. Constructive criticism based on the build at hand is good. Inasmuch as you did give any, that is a good thing.
2. Ridiculing or rejecting a build idea entirely based not on playability but instead based on the power of an alternative build is a bad thing. Inasmuch as this is what Adslahnit was doing, I regard him as a troll.
Now, the point about focusing on things other than stunlocking is a good idea: maybe you could suggest some of those other things? I'm afraid my wizard experience in the epic range is less than comprehensive...
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Jul 31, 2008 - 4:56PM
#23
|
Date Joined:
Sep 18, 2007
|
@Alpha: If a druid in 3.5 didn't take Natural Spell, did you get annoyed when people told them to? This is almost the same thing for the discussion they're having (epic tier battles.) Not having the orb is a serious power drop in epic.
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Jul 31, 2008 - 4:58PM
#24
|
|
|
Trickster's Disposition says "If you roll an 18 or higher on the d20 when making the first attack roll for an encounter or daily attack power, that power is not expended". This means the legality of using the Divine Oracle's rolling twice when attacking Will, your Elven Accuracy reroll, and your Sly Fortune's Favor rolls for triggering Trickster's Disposition is very disputable.
Possibly. But its fairly clear its referring to the first monster you attack. And not the first d20 you roll. Especially because your first "attack roll" has a value equal to "what you roll after all is said and done". Technically Elven Re-roll would give me two extra d20s, but its easier to just figure one. Only the ET level 21 re-roll power doesn't since it re-rolls d20s.
Specifically. The first attack roll is equal to the number that is added after everything is all said and done. So if you are rolling twice per attack and taking the highest, or replacing that attack roll with something else. The replaced value or highest value is the one you are comparing to the ability that lets us keep the powers.
Also, why do you keep on bringing up the Blood Mage when both your main build (the wizard/cleric/Divine Oracle/Deadly Trickster) and our traditional orbizard build don't use Blood Mage?
Because the guy who came in here and said "omg this sucks" referenced Legions hold, when the real thing you have to worry about is Destructive Salutation. Its more reliable and you get it earlier.
Though the "second form" of the build does use Blood Mage, its a bit more difficult to see because if you forgo your vs will attacks, DO becomes a less advantageous position. The Blood Mage will have for two encounters/day two confusions and thunderclap, plus 1 daily zone + 1 daily AoE stun and/or 1 wall. I.E. if you forgo using the stun all powers then you want to take the terrain modification zones instead and if you do that then you might as well not take DO and instead run a wizard PP.
This of course was mentioned as a secondary way to do it, because the primary idea was maximizing what you can get out of the Deadly Trickster ED.
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Jul 31, 2008 - 5:06PM
#25
|
Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
|
@Alpha: If a druid in 3.5 didn't take Natural Spell, did you get annoyed when people told them to? This is almost the same thing for the discussion they're having (epic tier battles.) Not having the orb is a serious power drop in epic.
Not quite the best comparison. Orb of Imposition pretty much requires a higher Wis mod. That's a bigger difference than Natural Spell. If the only difference were changing implements, they would have just suggested he take Second Implement. In other words, if the choice of implement were the ONLY problem Adslahnit has with the build, he would have just suggested he take a specific feat instead of going off about how very bad the build is.
Myself, I don't like the Orb much. Why? Because I don't like putting lots of points in Wisdom. Thunderwave and the Orb are the only wizard abilities that are in any way affected by Wis. By lowering Wis, that frees up points to spend elsewhere. The problem is that it's easy to figure out what the Orb's impact on the game would be(screw over 1 monster per encounter), but far more difficult to figure out the impact of a higher Int or other ability. It's a stylistic choice. I know I'll draw flak for it, but that's my opinion.
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Jul 31, 2008 - 5:16PM
#26
|
Date Joined:
Sep 18, 2007
|
Not quite the best comparison. Orb of Imposition pretty much requires a higher Wis mod. That's a bigger difference than Natural Spell. If the only difference were changing implements, they would have just suggested he take Second Implement. In other words, if the choice of implement were the ONLY problem Adslahnit has with the build, he would have just suggested he take a specific feat instead of going off about how very bad the build is.
Myself, I don't like the Orb much. Why? Because I don't like putting lots of points in Wisdom. Thunderwave and the Orb are the only wizard abilities that are in any way affected by Wis. By lowering Wis, that frees up points to spend elsewhere. The problem is that it's easy to figure out what the Orb's impact on the game would be(screw over 1 monster per encounter), but far more difficult to figure out the impact of a higher Int or other ability. It's a stylistic choice. I know I'll draw flak for it, but that's my opinion.
And Dex for the Wand gives you....? Really, what are you going to spend the rest of your points on.
And yes, I know it wasn't a perfect analogy, (it was an exaggeration to make a point) but it's a decent one.
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Jul 31, 2008 - 5:57PM
#27
|
Date Joined:
Mar 13, 2005
|
I think that it is a better choice than the Demi-god or Archmage. The trickster and Archmage will both, in the end, end up with roughly the same amount of daily powers available. But the trickster will be able to dictate a 1 to his enemies. Use epic trick in a more beneficial manner if he so chooses, and get re-rolls 3/day. Which is a terribly strong ability. Until you hit the cap-stone power, the Trickster is a LOT better.
The Demi-god only really compares once you hit the capstone as well, and it only cycles encounter powers. Its good, but a wizard is defined by his dailies and how they shape the battlefield. A ED that doesn't focus on these is losing out.
I would agree that Trickster was better if it didn't have the stat requirement of 21 (Dex or Cha). The opportunity cost of Trickster for a control wizard kills the Trickster advantage as few Wizard want 21 Dex or 21 Cha
The real advantage of Demigods is the stat boosts. Wizards don't choose Demigod for Divine Miracle or the defensive abilities
The wizard/warlock(or other way around) is also a nice option. Probably better to go warlock/wizard since the wizard part of this build is less dependent on its class features than many others.
It depends on whether you want a controller or a striker that can do some contolling
The wizard primary has
Orb (-5 to -6) to one target's saving throws from wizard spells (if Prismatic spray target has to take lower of 2 saving throws)
All other targets gets -2 to saving throw (If Prismatic Spray targets take lower of 2 saving throws)
Ritual caster and free rituals
An at will attack with the psychic keyword (with psychic lock target gets -4 to next attack roll)
An close or area at will
Cantrips
Warlock Primary has
Warlock's curse
Prime Shot
Shadow Walk
More Hitpoints/healing surges
Better skills
Free Leather Armor Proficiency
Wizard spells have targets get -2 to saving throws (If Prismatic Spray targets take lower of 2 saving throws)
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Jul 31, 2008 - 7:16PM
#28
|
|
|
The real advantage of Demigods is the stat boosts. Wizards don't choose Demigod for Divine Miracle or the defensive abilities
If the real advantage of Demigods is the stat boosts, then its a trap. +1 attack/dmg, secondary ability is not nearly as powerful as 20% more daily powers/day(first level archmage ability). which can be things like walls which don't even need attack rolls.
Then, at level 26 its 40% more dailies for the archmage. Then at level 30 its 120% more dailies.
The advantage of Demigod is its capstone ability, because now your encounter powers are effectively at will. And that is pretty huge for anyone. Especially if one of those encounter powers lets you control the enemy and have him attack for you.
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Jul 31, 2008 - 7:35PM
#29
|
|
|
I've heard that one a few times, and it continues to fail to impress me. If you think being on the internet justifies being rude, stay on 4chan please.
So you think arguing is the same as being rude. Because that's what you were talking about, and what I answered to.
My post was directed primarily at Adslahnit. Your posts, while somewhat argumentative and perpetuating Ad's foolishness, are somewhat less objectionable.
Well, the way your post was written, only one point was directed at him. Being one of the people posting on this thread, I think it's normal that the rest was read as directed at me too. Right?
2. Ridiculing or rejecting a build idea entirely based not on playability but instead based on the power of an alternative build is a bad thing. Inasmuch as this is what Adslahnit was doing, I regard him as a troll.
Well, I'm telling you that he's making his claims based on his ingame experience. He might not have played one, but he has seen his two Wizard players fool around with different stunlocking and disabling strategies through the paragon and epic tiers, so he knows what he is talking about, and he does know how much of a difference an orb makes there. You might not agree with the way he wrote his post - and you shouldn't -, but his point is still there: a hit with a stun is not enough. in fact, getting a hit is more than enough trouble at epic and the proposed strategy is based around hitting reliably every turn (it can't even with Divine Oracle, and to make things worse, Will is usually a high defense). If you go through all the trouble of almost guaranteeing a hit, you might as well orb it so that you don't have to do it again. Even with only a -5 to the saves of a single enemy it's too good to pass up.
Now, the point about focusing on things other than stunlocking is a good idea: maybe you could suggest some of those other things? I'm afraid my wizard experience in the epic range is less than comprehensive...
Well, for example, this guy could be awesome if he focused on Necrotic Web and Evard's. And like I said before, going nova with Epic Trick (probably with Time Stop and walls) could possibly take care of an entire encounter once per day, given the right circumstances. I'd go Warlock instead of Cleric though, you get better defenses, an extra reroll and you'll get leader bonuses for your Will-attacking stuns anyway. Get Orb of Imposition as soon as you reach the required Charisma score, +5 or +6 Wisdom mod is more than enough is more than enough for what you want in this build, and you need to be able to push enemies around with Thunderwave.
(As a re-roll is not a new roll, but alters an existing roll, it should certainly still qualify, just so we can put that argument to rest).
Keep in mind the context here: it's directly under a reroll ability, so I wouldn't be that sure if it's "first" in the Blade Cascade sense or not.
If the real advantage of Demigods is the stat boosts, then its a trap. +1 attack/dmg, secondary ability is not nearly as powerful as 20% more daily powers/day(first level archmage ability). which can be things like walls which don't even need attack rolls.
While I also don't agree with +2 to two stats being the only reason to choose Demigod, you are yet again severely underestimating the difference between -10 to a save and -11 to a save.
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Jul 31, 2008 - 7:50PM
#30
|
|
|
While I also don't agree with +2 to two stats being the only reason to choose Demigod, you are yet again severely underestimating the difference between -10 to a save and -11 to a save.
One enemy/encounter goes from an effective "removed from the fight entirely" to a total "removed from the fight entirely". Or for a solo its the difference between saving 75 or 80%. Which isn't a big deal any way because you have so many encounter stuns available anyway.
I mean, what do you care if the one enemy saves after an average of 10 rounds or never? 10 rounds is as good as never. You will have run, or everything will be more or less dead by the time he saves. And if he does save, the archmage can dump another daily on him since he gets an extra daily/day. (another daily/day which will hit every other enemy there as well, greatly increasing your efficiency).
|
|
|
