Table of Contents: Wherein I Say What I Am Going To Say
[list=1]
The Basics and Links: All That Buggering Introduction Stuff
Races: Otto's Choice
Archery or TWF? Just Like 3.5E
Powers: All Praise Jonathan Coulton
Skills and Feats (Emphasis on the Latter)
Equipment: Huge Piles of Cash
Build Options: An Expansion on Archery vs. TWF
Combat Tactics: Alone and Alongside
Table of Contents: Wherein I Say What I Am Going To Say[list=1][*]The Basics and Links: All That Buggering Introduction Stuff[*]Races: Otto's Choice[*]Archery or TWF? Just Like 3.5E[*]Powers: All Praise Jonathan Coulton[*]Skills and Feats (Emphasis o
The Basics and Links: All That Buggering Introduction Stuff
With the release of 4E, we've seen eight new classes and four defined roles for them to fill. There's the Defender, designed to pin down enemies and take their hits; this is also known as the Tank (MMO) or Big Stupid Fighter (TML20) role. There's the Controller, intended to screw around with the battlefield and the enemies' positions within it; you may have heard of this as God (TML20) or the Crowd Controller (MMO). There's the Leader, who gets to improve things for his allies as an inversion of the Controller; this is arguably a variant on God (TML20) or the Buffer (MMO).
And then there's the role shared by the Ranger, the Rogue, and the Warlock: the Striker. They're the ones capable of bringing the offense to a single monster, whether directly or indirectly, and have also been called Glass Cannons (TML20 and MMO). All three are capable, far more so than the other classes in 4E, of dealing large piles of damage at a consistent rate. The Ranger's particular shtick, unlike that of the Rogue and Warlock, is less mobility than Lots of Attacks and Lots of Damage. Seriously, many of the Ranger Powers grant multiple attacks at a time, something no one else gets. It still does have mobility to help it keep up with its foes, however. A number of its powers suffice as well to hold enemies in place. But if you're playing a Ranger, your goal is first and foremost to deal Lots of Damage.
So as a Ranger, what ability scores should you focus on? Depends on whether you're playing a predominantly melee or ranged character. If you go with melee, you'll want to focus most on Strength; most if not all of the melee Powers you'll get depend directly on it. You'll still want some Dexterity, both for weapon-specific feats (more on that later) and for Reflex and initiative. If you go with ranged, you'll instead want to focus on Dexterity; as with melee, most if not all of your ranged powers use that ability score. Depending on your setup, you may wish to employ Strength as a secondary ability or instead dump it in favor of Constitution. Either way, Wisdom is a secondary ability score you'll want to care about. Not only do half of your available Trained Skills depend on it, but it's also a secondary variable in several of your Powers (melee or ranged) and it shores up your otherwise lower Will defense.
Key: I'll be grabbing Dictum Mortuum's style here for grading options; the effects are rather obvious and pleasing to the eye. Red: A poor choice, and likely a trap. Stay from it. Purple: Still a poor choice, but less bad than Red. It might still be useful in some circumstances, but such will likely be situational. Black: In the middle, mediocre, neither particularly good nor particularly bad. Your choice, really, though it's useful for providing flavor. Blue: A good choice, and one you'll want to make if you can fit it in. Which may or may not be easy, depending on the circumstances. Sky Blue: Awesome. Take it like your life depends on it; your character's life certainly will.
Links: Weapon Mastery and You (Titanium Dragon): An analysis of the weapon groups based on exclusive feats and powers. How Badly Have I Screwed Up My Ranger? (Moody Loner): Not a guide, but a good first discussion on the subject. -More to come, likely-
The Basics and Links: All That Buggering Introduction StuffWith the release of 4E, we've seen eight new classes and four defined roles for them to fill. There's the Defender, designed to pin down enemies and take their hits; this is also known as the
To complement the eight classes in the Player's Handbook, WotC made up eight races. Six are old stalwarts; only the gnome and half-orc didn't make it. 'Course, the gnome still shows up in the Monster Manual, and the half-orc had vicious delusions about being a regular orc and thus was assimilated. (Half-elves have at least had the excuse of being popularized by Tolkien.) But neither was known for exploits or statistics related to Rangers, so that's no big loss. Rounding out the pack are Dragonborn and Tieflings. The former are some amalgam of draconic characters from all sorts of sources, though I can't understand for the life of me why the females of a reptilian have to have breasts. In any case, they're good for tanking. The latter were instead yanked directly out of Planescape and fitted with some new "Bael Turath" origin; it's still better than Planescape.
Dragonborn: Yes, I know I called them tanks above. That doesn't mean that they don't make decent melee rangers. With +2 Strength and +2 Constitution, you'll be capable of dealing damage and taking it too. The other benefits aren't as good, however. The skill bonus applies to stuff you're NOT looking for, and Dragonborn Fury and Draconic Heritage are more suited to dedicated tanks. (You're a secondary tank AT BEST.) Dragon Breath doesn't help, either, considering that it's an AoE. AoE is not your job, and other classes - especially Wizards and Clerics - can do it MUCH better than you can. Stick to evisceration.
Dwarf: Again with the stuff more suited for tanking! They're not Red, but most of the features of Dwarves are incidental to your role. They get +2 Constitution and +2 Wisdom, which doesn't help directly but does increase your hit points and boost the secondary effects of your Ranger powers. (It's not worth as much as +1 attack/damage, though.) The skill bonuses are neat, being associated with actual class skills. But the rest? Pshaw. Cast-Iron Stomach is highly situational - how often will you be poisoned, hmm? Dwarven Weapon Proficiency is worthless (you're ALREADY proficient with both weapons). Encumbered Speed shouldn't matter, considering that you're not the bugger in Plate. (The speed reduction doesn't help either.) And Stand Your Ground shouldn't matter for you considering that TANKING IS NOT YOUR JOB.
Eladrin: Oh, look, more useful benefits! Getting +2 Dexterity is good for any Ranger, regardless of focus. +2 Intelligence doesn't matter, but you take what you can get. The skill bonuses look poor...until you consider that Eladrin also get an extra trained skill. And trust me, you'll want all the skills you can get. Eladrin Weapon Proficiency is of course useless for the same reason as Dwarven Weapon Proficiency. Eladrin Will helps to shore up your otherwise poor Will defense. Fey Origin and Trance are situational, but Eladrin get SO MANY features (incidental or not) that you won't really care. And Fey Step? Hey, you're supposed to be mobile; teleportation is thus rather nifty.
Elf: One of the top two races for Rangers. They've got both +2 Dexterity AND +2 Wisdom; getting a boost to two associated ability scores is a feature unique to Elves. (In the PHB, at least.) There's also the speed boost, unlike the speed reduction of dwarves, that aids in mobility. And the skill bonuses (both in Ranger skills), Wild Step, Elven Accuracy, Group Awareness...what's not to like about Elves?
Half-Elf: You'd think that if Elves were Sky Blue, and so were Humans (see below), then Half-Elves would at least be Blue, right? WRONG. None of the features of Half-Elves relate to Rangers at all. +2 Constitution and +2 Charisma is useless for you, Dilettante is a waste of space (you'll want to focus on your own at-wills for the attacks, not someone else's), Dual Heritage is simply not worth it when you've got other good feats to choose from as well...really, Half-Elves are better suited to tanking than to being Rangers.
Halfling: Halflings have a similar relation to the Ranger as Dragonborn did. Except that more of their abilities synergize with the class. +2 Dexterity is always nifty; +2 Charisma is sort of like the +2 Intelligence for Eladrin. They're small, so they can't wield longbows or bastard swords, but shortbows and scimitars (Scimitar Flurry!) are arguably good enough for them. Both Nimble Reaction and Second Chance are great for mobile characters like Rangers; while not directly related to it, they're good at keeping you from being hit and subsequently pinned down. The skill bonuses (one associated, one not) and Bold aren't as nifty, but Halflings still may be better Rangers than Dragonborn.
Human: ...And this is the other fantastic PHB race. No, you don't get two associated ability scores, but you do get to CHOOSE your one associated one. Plus, you get another skill (score!), another feat (score!), a bonus to your non-AC defenses (score!) and an extra at-will power (for versatility). Not much more to say, really; Humans are at least a Blue choice for every class in the game.
Tiefling: Once again, we have an example of some bastard offspring of humanity that retains none of its versatility or applicability to the Ranger class. As with Half-Elves, none of their features relate to the class, being better suited to the trifecta of W-classes.
Note: I'm a bit iffy on declaring Dragonborn Black but Halflings Blue; if someone convinces me one way or the other I might change that opinion.
The Player's Handbook has eight races, so given past precedent we might expect, say, six races in the Monster Manual?
Well, no, instead we got SIXTEEN - double that in the Player's Handbook. And that's rather nifty.
Bugbear: Bugbears get both +2 Strength and +2 Dexterity, which is VERY GOOD on its own for a Ranger. And then with Oversized (more damage per attack!) and Predatory Eye (*coughSneakAttackcough*)...Bugbears are rather mean Rangers.
Doppelganger: It's more of the "nothing that benefits Rangers" deal here.
Drow: Drow have +2 Dexterity and +2 Charisma, which is neat. (Again, the latter is incidental.) Lolthtouched is also fun for stomping some nearby enemy (Cloud of Darkness is arguably better), but Drow suffer from simply not having enough racial features to run with. (Maybe the 4E FRCS will change things.)
Githyanki: I'm not rating them Red due to Danger Sense, Githyanki Willpower, and Telekinetic Leap. All three still aren't worth a bonus to Strength or Dexterity, however.
Githzerai: Unlike their brethren, Githzerai make rather good Rangers. They're pushing Sky Blue, but they simply don't have enough features that link directly to the Ranger to solidly hit it. The skill bonuses are fun, along with Danger Sense and Iron Mind, but they're not quite good enough IMO. Perhaps some other text will expand on them; then they'd be Sky Blue.
Gnoll: Gnolls are better Rangers than you might think. Not only do they have +2 Dexterity (+2 Constitution is always nice as a secondary score), but they have a speed boost as well. No one else in the Monster Manual does. The other features are more suited for tanking, but those two alone are fun.
Gnome: Gnomes are not Red only due to Reactive Stealth and Fade Away. Even then, those powers are better suited to Rogues than to Rangers.
Goblin: Despite having +2 Dexterity, Goblins are iffy for Rangers. Goblin Tactics is the best feature they get otherwise, and it's still quirky in that it triggers on a miss rather than an attack. (If you're a ranged Ranger - which you'll likely be with +2 Dexterity - being attacked in melee means that you have bigger problems.)
Hobgoblin: Yeah, nothing that relates to the Ranger class here. Moving along.
Kobold: They're the Small equivalent of Gnolls. Really, just take a look at that +2 Dexterity and Shifty. Dancing around in melee is so much fun with one of Pun-Pun's kin.
Minotaur: This is another iffy judgement. Minotaurs get the same ability bonuses as Dragonborn (+2 Strength, +2 Constitution), but also have associated skill bonuses (better than Dragonborn) and Oversized (better than Dragonborn). So they might be as good as Halflings.
Orc: Exactly the same situation as Dragonborn. They get the same ability bonuses and nothing else related to Rangers. Solid Black.
Shadar-Kai: They've got the same ability bonuses as Eladrin, and share similar sorts of boosts. In fact, Shadow Jaunt is better than Fey Step, considering that you're insubstantial (half damage) for a turn.
Longtooth Shifter: With +2 Strength and +2 Wisdom, what's not to like? They've also got associated skill boosts and Longtooth Shifting. While the latter requires you to be bloodied for activation, being a Ranger is all about DAMAGE; a small boost (along with scaling regeneration) is nice (but not fantastic) for a melee Ranger. They don't have enough benefits to be Sky Blue, but the 4E ECS will likely change that.
Razorclaw Shifter: Like their cousins, the Razorclaw Shifters have a couple good features but arguably aren't QUITE good enough to be Sky Blue.
Warforged: Wait, why are they Blue but similar folks (Dragonborn, Minotaurs, Orcs) aren't? Because there's more going for them, that's why. The Monster Manual is not the only word on Warforged; WotC actually realized a web enhancement of sorts here. Which means that Warforged can wield various component items. Like, oh, Warsoul weapons. (If in doubt with a Warforged character, always go with Warsoul weapons; each grants a stacking +2 bonus to initiative.) Embedded components are also fun if you find yourself needing to swap between a lot of weapons; you may want to start out with two Warsoul weapons (+4 initiative) before dropping them and Quick Drawing your embedded stuff. Some of the feats are fun too. While most rely on boosting Warforged Resolve, all such feats give some small benefits to it. Warforged Tactics is also fun, as it's a bonus to attack rolls (and such are very rare).
Races: Otto's Choice[sblock=Player's Handbook Races]To complement the eight classes in the Player's Handbook, WotC made up eight races. Six are old stalwarts; only the gnome and half-orc didn't make it. 'Course, the gnome still shows up in the Monste
More people should list Keirsey or Myers-Briggs types in their profiles instead of those stupid "The test says I'm a LF Elven Paladin" things.
They, you know, actually say something about who you are.
ENFP Champion, Idealist here :D I've found I usually get along great with you rationals. It's the Guardians I absolutely cannot stand. We're just oil and water. We're philosophical, flexible, and creative...they're...boring and simple minded :p
In fact, I should put that in MY signature.
More people should list Keirsey or Myers-Briggs types in their profiles instead of those stupid "The test says I'm a LF Elven Paladin" things. They, you know, actually say something about who you are. ENFP Champion, Idealist here :D I've found I u
As long as this is deviating off topic in this manner... I'm also an INTJ, at least most of the time. The I is close to the I/E boundary though.
Looking forward to another handbook, especially as I *haven't even read the ranger class yet*, and having an idea about what the good powers are going in will make my life easier. =)
As long as this is deviating off topic in this manner... I'm also an INTJ, at least most of the time. The I is close to the I/E boundary though.Looking forward to another handbook, especially as I *haven't even read the ranger class yet*, and having
They, you know, actually say something about who you are.
This is very nearly exactly why I don't. Just sayin'.
As far as the topic goes - I am so not a CharOp expert. I am, on the other hand, perfectly willing to throw stat blocks and feat progressions out for y'all to debate and improve.
And as Ranger is the one class that I've actually played and beat on a character concept (see How Badly Have I Screwed Up My Ranger?) I actually have some starting points for y'all here.
As far as races - definitely elf or human on the top tier, with Dwarf being a strong contender for a melee ranger.(call them tier 1.5, as they give a bonus in one stat needed and Con, which you can work with.) Halfling and Dragonborn would work for the second tier, and Tiefling and Half-Elf on the bottom. Not saying you can't make them work, but with no stat bonuses in applicable stats besides Con, you'll have to work at it. In my non-expert opinion, of course...feel free to coreect my misapprehensions.
Feats will obviously depend on the build and paragon path - Stormwarden, Battlefield Archer, or multiclassing into fighter and taking Pitfighter. There is also the interminable light/heavy armor debate - I would suggest heavy armor for the Pitfighter build and light armor for the archer and Stormwarden builds - Stormwarden since you're pumping Dex anyway for Blade Storm/Twin Blade Storm, and archer to encourage you to stay the hell out of melee.
I can start throwing some stat blocks out too, but this is getting long and I need coffee.
This is very nearly exactly why I don't. Just sayin'.As far as the topic goes - I am so not a CharOp expert. I am, on the other hand, perfectly willing to throw stat blocks and feat progressions out for y'all to debate and improve.And as Ranger is th
Looking forward to this, I have already done a lot of poking and prodding with Ranger builds and it will be great to see all of them critically compared to each other.
Right now I am very partial to TWF Stormwarden builds for a few reasons:
1. Great offensive power with great consistancy The build deals 2*Dex mod damage with no attack roll. It deals Dex mod damage on each miss. It has a powerful Encounter stance. It can do damage at both melee and range. This build is not just about doing damage, but doing it all the time.
2. Good versatility. Seeing as you are pumping both Str and Dex, you have the ability scores to still use your Bow. Getting chewed up in melee? Drop back and start making pin cushions.
The biggest problem I see for this build is cash, actually.
Looking forward to this, I have already done a lot of poking and prodding with Ranger builds and it will be great to see all of them critically compared to each other.Right now I am very partial to TWF Stormwarden builds for a few reasons:1. Great of
Looking forward to another handbook, especially as I *haven't even read the ranger class yet*, and having an idea about what the good powers are going in will make my life easier. =)
Yeah, I figured that it needed to be done, and that I should look at the Ranger class myself instead of ogling at the Wizard. I'm arguably learning as much as you folks here.
@ Moody Loner: I'd take a bit of issue with the Dwarf at Tier 1.5. The problem is that Wisdom is a secondary ability for all Rangers; none of the class's attacks rely directly on it, though it's used for a couple of secondary effects. I'd instead argue that Dwarves are at the same level as the Halfing and Dragonborn; while the latter get singular boosts to the Ranger's primary ability scores, the Dwarf gets boosts to Wisdom (the Ranger's secondary) and Constitution (everybody's tertiary). It's a tradeoff, really. I'll also be mentioning the MM1 races, though in a separate section. (There are a couple of good races in it.)
Oh, and interesting thread; I'll post a link to it in the first post when I can.
@ Unearth: Yeah, that's one concept I was thinking of. I hadn't looked at Stormwarden itself much, but I had seen Scimitar Dance and wondered if there was anything else that functioned similarly.
One thing I was thinking of, actually, was to see whether the use of thrown weapons was a viable strategy in order to use both melee and ranged powers. The section on magic items specifies that all magic thrown weapons automatically return to you after being thrown (page 232). Problem is, however, that either your feat options for specializing in said weapons are tough to get (Axes and Hammers require significant Constitution) or the weapons themselves don't have high damage dice (both available Light Blades deal 1d4 each).
Yeah, I figured that it needed to be done, and that I should look at the Ranger class myself instead of ogling at the Wizard. I'm arguably learning as much as you folks here.@ Moody Loner: I'd take a bit of issue with the Dwarf at Tier 1.5. The probl
I think the weapons are too lackluster without even looking into the feats. If you consider that you should only be behind 1 magic level behind in bonuses, then you would likely be better off with an at level bow and either using scimitar (which does damage whether you hit or not) or bastard sword (+1 hit to offset the lower magic bonus).
I think the weapons are too lackluster without even looking into the feats. If you consider that you should only be behind 1 magic level behind in bonuses, then you would likely be better off with an at level bow and either using scimitar (which does
I'm thinking of making an elf ranger archer with no Str-based melee capacity. Dex >= Wis > Con >> rest.
The part I'm having a deuce of a time figuring out is which PP to go for. Here's what I've short listed so far - do you have a recommendation? Battlefield Archer Stormwarden Daggermaster Divine Oracle
I'm vastly more interested in the at-will and encounter powers than dailies. I hate resource management intensive characters, and would prefer something I can rely on every fight.
I'm thinking of making an elf ranger archer with no Str-based melee capacity. Dex >= Wis > Con >> rest.The part I'm having a deuce of a time figuring out is which PP to go for. Here's what I've short listed so far - do you have a recommendation?Bat
On topic: What most people here seems to be chattering about when I hear Ranger is Blade Cascade. I'm trying to build an Old Master type ranged Ranger, mostly Dex and Wis, so I'm much more interested in the ranged abilities.
I'm going to go give them another readthrough and see if there are many gems.
Off Topic: I'm INTJ as well, Rational Mastermind.On topic: What most people here seems to be chattering about when I hear Ranger is Blade Cascade. I'm trying to build an Old Master type ranged Ranger, mostly Dex and Wis, so I'm much more interested i
I'm thinking of making an elf ranger archer with no Str-based melee capacity. Dex >= Wis > Con >> rest.
The part I'm having a deuce of a time figuring out is which PP to go for. Here's what I've short listed so far - do you have a recommendation? Battlefield Archer Stormwarden Daggermaster Divine Oracle
I'm vastly more interested in the at-will and encounter powers than dailies. I hate resource management intensive characters, and would prefer something I can rely on every fight.
Is there a reason Daggermaster or Divine Oracle is there? I don't really see how they benefit your main focus at all.
Battlefield Archer is...alright. To be honest, I'm overly thrilled by the PP. Archer's Action is ok, Battle Surge is meh, and Battlefield Experience is decent. It is nice being able to tag multiple quarrys so you don't have to run up to the guy if he is in the back. The +1 attack is very nice though. The powers are good though, the best you'll find for an archer anyway.
Stormwarden seems poor for someone who doesn't focus on strength. At first you might think 'Hey, I can pick up scimitar dance and deal a bunch of dex mod damage even without pumping strength!' Sure, but you won't get your Hunter's Quarry damage, and the Scimitar Dance really isn't that good when your hit chance is in the floor. Sure, you'll do damage, but it's only good when you are also dealing good damage when you are hitting too.
One unlikely PP I'd look into is...Pit Fighter. ... No, really. Yes, you can't use the two attack powers at all. But the abilities you get are really, really, good.
Armor Optimization: This one is pretty good, +1 AC, who can argue?
Extra Damage Action: Now this one is a pretty awesome ability. Not only do you add half your level in damage, you add it to every attack made with a standard action this turn. Imagine a round where you use a triple attack with your extra action and then a double attack. That's 5 attacks each doing a lot of damage. At level 15 (first level you can do this), this is a possible 35 damage bonus if all of your attacks hit. It actually makes a good case for being Human and getting Action Surge.
Dirty Fighting: Add Wis mod to damage to every attack, when we have a plethora of 2/3 attack powers? Yes, please! There are few ways for archers to increase their damage so significantly. It is worth considering.
Is there a reason Daggermaster or Divine Oracle is there? I don't really see how they benefit your main focus at all.Battlefield Archer is...alright. To be honest, I'm overly thrilled by the PP. Archer's Action is ok, Battle Surge is meh, and Battlef
Might as well post what I'm doing with my ranger. It's human, so 18s and 16s were a little too rich for my blood.
Right now: Stats: Str 14, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 10 Initiative +5 Class abilites: as ranger. I choose the TWF path. Sneak attack +2d6 Hp 32 bloodied 16 healing surge value 8, healing surges per day 8 Trained Skills: Acrobatics, Athletics, Endurance, Nature, perception, Stealth, and Thievery. Feats: Quick-Draw and Sneak of Shadows Weapons: Scimitar + 4 d8+2 Short sword +5 d6+2 Dagger +3 d4+2 Long bow +5 d10+3 Crossbow + 5 d8+3
Armour = Leather Ac: 15, Fort 14, Reflex 15, Will 13,
My Plan: Feats: Skill training Bluff, Skill focus Bluff, Skill focus Stealth, Improved initiative, (Pp) Size the moment, Secret Stride, Sly hunter, Steady Shooter, ???, Haven't really planned much beyond 20th. Paragon Path: path finder.
State boost plan: (4)Cha/Str, (8)Cha /Str, (14)Str/Dex, (18)Str/Dex,
Might as well post what I'm doing with my ranger. It's human, so 18s and 16s were a little too rich for my blood. Right now:Stats: Str 14, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 10Initiative +5Class abilites: as ranger. I choose the TWF path.Sneak att
Might as well post what I'm doing with my ranger. It's human, so 18s and 16s were a little too rich for my blood.
Right now: Stats: Str 14, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 10 Initiative +5 Class abilites: as ranger. I choose the TWF path. Sneak attack +2d6 Hp 32 bloodied 16 healing surge value 8, healing surges per day 8 Trained Skills: Acrobatics, Athletics, Endurance, Nature, perception, Stealth, and Thievery. Feats: Quick-Draw and Sneak of Shadows Weapons: Scimitar + 4 d8+2 Short sword +5 d6+2 Dagger +3 d4+2 Long bow +5 d10+3 Crossbow + 5 d8+3
Armour = Leather Ac: 15, Fort 14, Reflex 15, Will 13,
My Plan: Feats: Skill training Bluff, Skill focus Bluff, Skill focus Stealth, Improved initiative, (Pp) Size the moment, Secret Stride, Sly hunter, Steady Shooter, ???, Haven't really planned much beyond 20th. Paragon Path: path finder.
State boost plan: (4)Cha/Str, (8)Cha /Str, (14)Str/Dex, (18)Str/Dex,
This is absolutely disgusting. Your character is not only not optimized, it's darn near unplayable in how bad it is.
Why take an offhand weapon as a TWF ranger? Why boost Cha at all? Why The stat array that leaves all of your attacking options weak with no real benefit? Why the crossbow/steady shooter? Why Bluff? Why leather and not hide? etc.
Why gimp your character so horribly?
This is absolutely disgusting. Your character is not only not optimized, it's darn near unplayable in how bad it is.Why take an offhand weapon as a TWF ranger? Why boost Cha at all? Why The stat array that leaves all of your attacking options weak wi
This is absolutely disgusting. Your character is not only not optimized, it's darn near unplayable in how bad it is.
Thats a pretty strong statement, especially considering that unplayable is almost impossible in 4e, and you don't actually back anything you say up with any evidence.
Strategy_Rose wrote:
Why take an offhand weapon as a TWF ranger?
??? Your not serious are you? Practically all melee ranger powers require an off hand weapon. A short sword allows me to deal sneak attack damage. Why the TWF route? Two reasons, 1) It gives me 5 extra HP per trier which is better then a situational +2 AC boost. 2) I need it to qualify for my Paragon path...You have gotten your books right?
Strategy_Rose wrote:
Why boost Cha at all?
Why to boost my bluff, of course.
Strategy_Rose wrote:
Why The stat array that leaves all of your attacking options weak with no real benefit?
Str melee attacks. This is lower becuase when I am in melee I try to be flanking, or have combat advantage, which allows +2 to hit. That makes up for a 4 point of str. Dex at 16, I couldn't afford a 16 or 18 with the 22 point buy. I suppose I could have gone with a 16 in dex modified to an 18, but +2 to attack and damage for 5 hp and 2 healing surges didn't really seem worth it, especially since I could make up the dex later, and get an enhanced weapon. Also I plan on getting combat advantage a lot which will make for the +2 to hit. Con at 15, lets see HP and healing surges...If I have to explain their importance you have no business offering any kind of optimization advice. int dump state, no real use. Wisdom, good for secondary effects and half my skills, why not? Charisma, why for bluff of course.
Strategy_Rose wrote:
Why the crossbow/steady shooter?
For sneak attack at range!? You do know that sneak of the shadows is the rogue MC feat right? You also know that sneak attack requires certain weapons, don't you? As for steady shooter, backstabber would be a better choice.
Strategy_Rose wrote:
Why Bluff?
I see you haven't actually read this skill, I'll enlighten you. Bluff allows me two things each once per encounter: 1) I can fain in combat which gives me combat advantage. (please tell me i don't have to explain combat advantage.) 2) It allows me to distract an opponent, which then allows me to hide in plain sight, making me practically invisible!
Strategy_Rose wrote:
Why leather and not hide? etc.
Well lets look at this. Leather offers me +2 AC costs 25gp, has no check penalty, and weighs 15lb. Hide offers me a +3 AC bonus costs 30gp, has a check penalty of -1 and weighs 25lb. So for 5 more gp, a -1 to three skills, and 10 more pounds of weight I get a hole +1 to AC...I'm not seeing how this is the uber goodness, especially when I currently have more HP then our paladin.
Strategy_Rose wrote:
Why gimp your character so horribly?
Well what would you suggest?
Thats a pretty strong statement, especially considering that unplayable is almost impossible in 4e, and you don't actually back anything you say up with any evidence.??? Your not serious are you? Practically all melee ranger powers require an off h
The fact that you put your level up ability boosts into a -10- is strictly sub-optimal. There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it. I'd recommend reading some of the handbooks for other classes to get a general idea of how to optimize and hopefully you can extrapolate from both that and this guide, once it is finished.
For starters, how about this for stats:Str 16+2Con 12Dex 16Int 08Wis 12Cha 10The fact that you put your level up ability boosts into a -10- is strictly sub-optimal. There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it. I'd recommend reading some of the handbooks
Bluff allows me two things each once per encounter: 1) I can fain in combat which gives me combat advantage. (please tell me i don't have to explain combat advantage.) 2) It allows me to distract an opponent, which then allows me to hide in plain sight, making me practically invisible!
Seems like a huge investment (and sacrifice of alternatives) for Encounters which are opposed (one of which is opposed by all that can see you).
Seems like a huge investment (and sacrifice of alternatives) for Encounters which are opposed (one of which is opposed by all that can see you).
Thats a pretty strong statement, especially considering that unplayable is almost impossible in 4e, and you don't actually back anything you say up with any evidence.
Oh, but it's accurate considering you won't be hitting well and won't be doing much damage when you do. As a striker, that's kind of terrible.
??? Your not serious are you? Practically all melee ranger powers require an off hand weapon. A short sword allows me to deal sneak attack damage.
I mean of course why take a weapon that has the "Off-Hand" property, being thus, an off-hand weapon. A short sword allows you to deal sneak attack damage once per encounter. You might pick up a second scimitar so that after that you are capable of dealing better damage.
Why the TWF route? Two reasons, 1) It gives me 5 extra HP per trier which is better then a situational +2 AC boost. 2) I need it to qualify for my Paragon path...You have gotten your books right?
You do realize I never asked why you went TWF right?
Why to boost my bluff, of course.
Which you shouldn't be taking anyway. It wastes a feat to get training in it, provides almost no boost because you have better ways of gaining combat advantage and concealment that don't require you to give up your standard action (especially as a ranger), and forces you to grab some Charisma wasting points to be of any value. Terrible skill here.
Str melee attacks. This is lower becuase when I am in melee I try to be flanking, or have combat advantage, which allows +2 to hit. That makes up for a 4 point of str.
No it doesn't. With a 14 in Strength you won't be hitting as often or as hard. 1) Strength mod gets added to damage each attack on most of your powers, that's more damage your giving up than in other builds. 2) Combat advantage alone does not make it up. As a striker to be doing your job you need a high main attack stat+combat advantage to be doing decent enough damage. Anything below a 16 in your main attack stat is absolutely terrible.
Dex at 16, I couldn't afford a 16 or 18 with the 22 point buy. I suppose I could have gone with a 16 in dex modified to an 18, but +2 to attack and damage for 5 hp and 2 healing surges didn't really seem worth it, especially since I could make up the dex later, and get an enhanced weapon.
Again you seem to think hitting is as easy as in 3.5. Newsflash, it's not. A 16 is good for a secondary attack stat though. This can be left alone.
Also I plan on getting combat advantage a lot which will make for the +2 to hit.
No it doesn't. Combat advantage as a striker should be strived for every or nearly every round along with having a high attack stat, not instead of. To hit is a huge factor in 4ed.
Con at 15, lets see HP and healing surges...If I have to explain their importance you have no business offering any kind of optimization advice.
This is a waste. A huge waste. You have no need for Constitution to be up at 15, especially when your Strength is only at 14. You can drop it down to 12, get 4 points back, and lose very little. Your Fort is actually better because you'll be boosting Strength, your HP will be down by 3 total... wow, that was a huge loss. And your number of surges and surge value is fine for your role. The fighter should be taking the hits, 12 con is plenty for you.
int dump state, no real use.
Agreed.
Wisdom, good for secondary effects and half my skills, why not?
This is alright, but again, that Strength absolutely needs to be higher. It can probably be dropped to 12, but you can keep it at 14 if you really really want to.
Charisma, why for bluff of course.
Which as noted above is a huge waste of resources and time for very little reward for this character.
For sneak attack at range!?
Alright, so you use up your one sneak attack per encounter from range, and now that short sword was doing what again? Taking Steady Shooter for +3 damage on one attack each encounter is absolutely terrible. Another wasted feat. You shouldn't need to sneak attack at range, because you only get one per encounter, and hopefully you'll be in melee with combat advantage with the guy you want to do massive damage to. This is a waste.
You do know that sneak of the shadows is the rogue MC feat right? You also know that sneak attack requires certain weapons, don't you? As for steady shooter, backstabber would be a better choice.
Yes, I know what sneak of shadows is. Have you read it? You do realize you get one sneak attack per encounter, right? Answer me something, is it worth wasting a feat to gain +1, +2, or +3 damage total per encounter (what steady shooter and backstabber would do)? The correct answer is, no.
I see you haven't actually read this skill, I'll enlighten you. Bluff allows me two things each once per encounter: 1) I can fain in combat which gives me combat advantage. (please tell me i don't have to explain combat advantage.) 2) It allows me to distract an opponent, which then allows me to hide in plain sight, making me practically invisible!
I see you in your excitement only skimmed the power, and didn't read it carefully. Both actions can only be done once which you correctly caught. What you missed is that each takes a standard action. There are better ways to gain combat advantage or concealment without having to waste your standard action. This is a terrible skill that you're wasting way too much effort on.
Well lets look at this. Leather offers me +2 AC costs 25gp, has no check penalty, and weighs 15lb. Hide offers me a +3 AC bonus costs 30gp, has a check penalty of -1 and weighs 25lb. So for 5 more gp, a -1 to three skills, and 10 more pounds of weight I get a hole +1 to AC...I'm not seeing how this is the uber goodness, especially when I currently have more HP then our paladin.
10 pounds of weight is negligible for a Str-based ranger (again, it needs to be higher) as with a 16 you can carry 160 pounds, and for an 18 you can carry 180. The +1 AC makes a large difference in your survivability, especially as a melee striker, and the armor check penalty means far, far less.
Also, that's partly an issue with your con being too high to be worthwhile and your paladin not being tanky enough.
Well what would you suggest?
I would suggest that you take a starting array of either
Str 18 Con 12 Dex 16 Int 8 Wis 12 Cha 10
or
Str 16 Con 13 Dex 16 Int 8 Wis 14 Cha 10
with a preference to the first one.
Drop the crossbow and use your longbow exclusively for ranged attacks. Pick up another scimitar for use with Quickdraw after your one sneak attack. Take hide armor. You can keep the dagger, but it's mostly meaningless. Drop skill focus bluff and skill training bluff. Drop either Quickdraw or Improved Initiative (they don't stack). Take skill focus thievery in late paragon, not early heroic. Without Skill training bluff, skill focus bluff, steady shooter, and either II or QD you have 4 more feats open. Take Blade Opportunist, Action Surge, Two weapon fighting, and two weapon defense.
Work from there.
Oh, but it's accurate considering you won't be hitting well and won't be doing much damage when you do. As a striker, that's kind of terrible.I mean of course why take a weapon that has the "Off-Hand" property, being thus, an off-hand weapon. A short
Is there a reason Daggermaster or Divine Oracle is there? I don't really see how they benefit your main focus at all.
Thanks for the reply, Unearth! I simply forgot to take Daggermaster off the list. At one point I was thinking of trying a hybrid ranger/melee, then scrapped it for archery. Pit Fighter is awesome. Flat out. Thanks for pointing it out!
So my revised short list is now Battlefield Archer, Divine Oracle, Pit Fighter.
Battlefield Archer pros: 2 good abilities, two good encounter powers (which I prefer to dailies), can get good Dex, Wis, and Con right off the bat, which will help get Hide Specialization for +1 AC early, wide open multiclass choices, can focus totally on bow/ranger/elf feats and focus is good. Battlefield Archer cons: Battle Surge doesn't make me jump up and down, and I'd have to take the blechy archery path.
Divine Oracle pros: two good abilities, one decent encounter power, multiclassing cleric leverages high Wis very well, gives me access to attacks against a different defense, more options at every level if I sink feats into multiclass, access to healing, can take TWF track for Toughness. Divine Oracle cons: two meh dailies, one meh ability, lots of cleric Wis vs Will powers want Cha that I don't have here, feats spent on multiclassing means less available for archery.
Pit Fighter pros: three awesometastic abilities, can focus on bow/ranger/elf feats, can take TWF track for Toughness, and might even be able to use melee powers with the +1 to hit from fighter multi feat. Pit Fighter cons: Str required takes away from Con, which lowers Fort and delays or prevents access to Hide Specialization, multiclass feat is useless and precludes a useful multiclass, two useless powers and the other is a daily, best ability doesn't come until 16th which is getting late (I like my awesome now!).
This requires more thought. (And input! ) -blarg
Thanks for the reply, Unearth! I simply forgot to take Daggermaster off the list. At one point I was thinking of trying a hybrid ranger/melee, then scrapped it for archery. Pit Fighter is awesome. Flat out. Thanks for pointing it out!So my revi
You know, it seems like TWF rangers have a bit of a problem with drawing actions...
You need a minor action to draw both weapons, and a minor action to mark a target. So at the start of combat you can either spend your entire turn marking and drawing, or make a charge attack and not mark the target, sacrificing 3.5 damage.
Without the second weapon you'd still be able to charge after marking.
Quickdraw is perhaps a good idea?
You know, it seems like TWF rangers have a bit of a problem with drawing actions...You need a minor action to draw both weapons, and a minor action to mark a target. So at the start of combat you can either spend your entire turn marking and drawing
Quick Draw would only allow a Ranger to draw both weapons in a single attack if his/her/its attack was a Twin Strike.
I can't find speeds for drawing weapons, though. Can I get a page number?
-- Griffinhart
Quick Draw would only allow a Ranger to draw both weapons in a single attack if his/her/its attack was a Twin Strike.I can't find speeds for drawing weapons, though. Can I get a page number?-- Griffinhart
Or any other power that utilized two weapons. Then again, if he was only attacking with one weapon, he wouldn't need the second weapon anyways.
As to where rules on drawing weapons are, I have no idea. I'm pretty sure it's a minor action though.
Or any other power that utilized two weapons. Then again, if he was only attacking with one weapon, he wouldn't need the second weapon anyways. As to where rules on drawing weapons are, I have no idea. I'm pretty sure it's a minor action though.
16, 16, 12, 12, 10, 8 - Total modifiers +7 Excellent choice! The "16 16" array is optimal for a class or build that requires two primary abilities. The optimal total of modifiers is also excellent at +7. (If desired, the extra 12 can neutralize the 8 penalty, while maintaining the mod total and defenses optimization.)
This would be my stat block option of choice for a melee or missile specialist. Sure, you can crank Strength or Dex, but unless you're going Pit Fighter and heavy armor you're going to want a decent Dex. Strength isn't as important for missile rangers, and a high Strength might even tempt them into that awful, awful melee...but having a good Wisdom would come in very handy for a missile ranger - especially for those "slide x + Wisdom modifier" mobility exploits to get you out of melee.
But if you want to be able to do both, as I am trying to do...may I advocate:
16, 14, 14, 13, 10, 8 - Total modifiers +7 Excellent choice! The "16 14 14" array is the best choice for a "MAD" (multiple-ability dependency) class or build, that must invest in three or four abilities. The array supplies one primary, two secondary, and even an auxiliary ability. The total modifiers +7, also benefits a well-rounded and robust generalist character.
With the elf mod, that gives you 16s in Strength, Dex, and Wisdom - not super in any of them, but the generally accepted minimum in your attack stats and a 16 Wisdom as well. Humans can pull a 16 in Str and Dex, and a 14 in Wis. Not stellar, but capable in both roles and with mobility. Yes, I am well aware I didn't do this with my ranger - might have been more optimal had I done so.
As far as feats - how's this progression for a multi-role ranger? (from my post in Multi-Role Ranger Build)
0. Toughness 1. Quick Draw 2. WF Bows 4. WF Heavy Blades 6. TWF 8. TWD 10. Elven Precision 11. Heavy Blade Opp - Retrain something for Scimitar Dance 12. Scimitar Dance if I can't bear to retrain, otherwise Combat Anticipation 14. Alertness 16. Running Shot 18. Uncanny Dodge 20. Danger Sense 21. Armor Specialization: Hide 22. Evasion 24. Defensive Advantage 26. Don't know. 28. Heavy Blade Mastery 30. Two-Weapon Flurry
See what you can do with that.
I said yesterday that I'd provide some stat blocks and feat progressions, and didn't get to it.For stat blocks, let's take a look over at Haldrik's Point-Buy Ability Array Optimization thread.Allow me to quote:This would be my stat block option of ch
For your second given array, you can also do 16, 16, 14, 11, 10, 10 if you're insane like me and can't bear having an ability penalty. Also, if you're a melee Ranger, putting that 13 (or 11, if you go my way) into Con opens up Scale armor (at Epic, if you go my way).
As for your feats, what about non-Elves? Human would probably take Human Preserverance in place of Elven Precision. Dunno 'bout any others.
Also, Epic Resurgence for 26? Unfettered Stride (for non-Elves)?
-- Griffinhart
For your second given array, you can also do 16, 16, 14, 11, 10, 10 if you're insane like me and can't bear having an ability penalty. Also, if you're a melee Ranger, putting that 13 (or 11, if you go my way) into Con opens up Scale armor (at Epic, i
Yes, my feat progression was for an elf - swapping out for race-specific feats would be assumed.
This is also assuming a scimitar-weilder that uses missle weapons as well, but uses two-weapon melee as the starting build.
Yes, my feat progression was for an elf - swapping out for race-specific feats would be assumed. This is also assuming a scimitar-weilder that uses missle weapons as well, but uses two-weapon melee as the starting build.
I would like to apologize to On_the_wings_of_TPK. I still believe that the content of my posts were accurate, but my tone was highly aggressive an unnecessary. We should work toward optimization, and that tone won't do anything other than make people angry.
I maintain that my build advice is sound, but apologize for the method in which I presented it.
Hope your character does well.
I would like to apologize to On_the_wings_of_TPK. I still believe that the content of my posts were accurate, but my tone was highly aggressive an unnecessary. We should work toward optimization, and that tone won't do anything other than make people
It's a shame Charisma is completely pointless for Rangers - I'd like to play a Dragonborn TWF Ranger (twin battleaxes, whee!) and it feels like the second racial ability boost is going to waste. Ah well!
Most of the axe powers are based on Con or Str, right?
It's a shame Charisma is completely pointless for Rangers - I'd like to play a Dragonborn TWF Ranger (twin battleaxes, whee!) and it feels like the second racial ability boost is going to waste. Ah well!Most of the axe powers are based on Con or Str,
@Wraith235: I don't think WF Anything is a prereq for anything. I could be wrong though. I haven't memorized the weapon feats yet, 'cuz they're so different this time around.
@WombleHunter: Yes.
@Moody Loner: I'm not so sure if the Weapon Focus feats are really worth it. They only confer +1 damage, and even though in 4E damage dealt/taken is a lot lower, it's still only +1 damage...
ETA: Also, TWFlurry is basically useless for a TWF Ranger. Heavy Blade Opportunity is far superior.
Unless you want to abuse a potential infinite loop to generate attacks when an enemy provokes an Opportunity Attack...
-- Griffinhart
@Wraith235: I don't think WF Anything is a prereq for anything. I could be wrong though. I haven't memorized the weapon feats yet, 'cuz they're so different this time around.@WombleHunter: Yes.@Moody Loner: I'm not so sure if the Weapon Focus feats a
WF = +1 to 3dam/attack. That can mean +6DPR with Twin Strike, +9DPR with three-in-one shot, or easily +100DPR or more with Hail of Arrows and a lot of minions.
Lethal Hunter is a flat +1.05DPR to your Quarry (1d6/2=3.5, 1d8/2=4.5, plus 5% crit).
(Math thanks to Ziana)
WF is good with Rangers Exploits.WF = +1 to 3dam/attack. That can mean +6DPR with Twin Strike, +9DPR with three-in-one shot, or easily +100DPR or more with Hail of Arrows and a lot of minions.Lethal Hunter is a flat +1.05DPR to your Quarry (1d6/2=3.5
Lethal Hunter is per Quarry die, though. So at Epic, it's also granting +3.15DPR. Also, it still has the potential for dealing much more damage than WF. (+24 > +18 > +3/attack)
Though yeah, that doesn't beat flat +3DPAttack. Guess I know what I'm taking for my melee-only (or as close to as possible) Ranger...
-- Griffinhart
Lethal Hunter is per Quarry die, though. So at Epic, it's also granting +3.15DPR. Also, it still has the potential for dealing much more damage than WF. (+24 > +18 > +3/attack)Though yeah, that doesn't beat flat +3DPAttack. Guess I know what I'm taki
Other thing with HQ is that it's only once per round on a successful attack, not on every successful attack. I fail to see where HQ would do less damage than WF, though. Both deal a minimum of 1 extra damage (or 2, or 3, depending on your tier).
WF just does it more frequently and is guaranteed to do it every time you hit (unless you're somehow denied Feat bonuses).
So yeah, if you have to pick between LH and WF, go with WF.
-- Griffinhart
Other thing with HQ is that it's only once per round on a successful attack, not on every successful attack. I fail to see where HQ would do less damage than WF, though. Both deal a minimum of 1 extra damage (or 2, or 3, depending on your tier).WF ju
Other thing with HQ is that it's only once per round on a successful attack, not on every successful attack. I fail to see where HQ would do less damage than WF, though. Both deal a minimum of 1 extra damage (or 2, or 3, depending on your tier).
WF just does it more frequently and is guaranteed to do it every time you hit (unless you're somehow denied Feat bonuses).
So yeah, if you have to pick between LH and WF, go with WF.
-- Griffinhart
LH does have the benefit that it applies no matter what weapon you use, and it gives double the benefit if any of your attacks crit (going from maxed d6 to maxed d8). Generally still worse than weapon focus but it is still better under specific circumstances.
LH does have the benefit that it applies no matter what weapon you use, and it gives double the benefit if any of your attacks crit (going from maxed d6 to maxed d8). Generally still worse than weapon focus but it is still better under specific circu
I have been trying to figure out a hammer-wielding ranger (I CANT FRICKING STAND SCIMITARS) template, but am coming across the MAD problem. In most ways it is strictly inferior to a scimitar dance ranger (why the hell did they have to go and make scimitar dance weapon specific?) due to the number of feats you need to blow to shore up weaknesses.
Would need the following: Max Str 19+ con 15+ dex Prof Chainmail Prof Scale Mail Spec Scale Mail (without being able to max dex you will need something to compensate for your bad ac) as well as all the standard dps-raising feats.
anyone got any good suggestions for a build?
I have been trying to figure out a hammer-wielding ranger (I CANT FRICKING STAND SCIMITARS) template, but am coming across the MAD problem. In most ways it is strictly inferior to a scimitar dance ranger (why the hell did they have to go and make sc
With the large number of multiple attack powers that rangers have, my damage calculator may be handy in figuring average damage per round, using HQ, chances to hit at least once, etc.
With the large number of multiple attack powers that rangers have, my damage calculator may be handy in figuring average damage per round, using HQ, chances to hit at least once, etc.http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1047425Could make rankin
I have been trying to figure out a hammer-wielding ranger (I CANT FRICKING STAND SCIMITARS) template, but am coming across the MAD problem. In most ways it is strictly inferior to a scimitar dance ranger (why the hell did they have to go and make scimitar dance weapon specific?) due to the number of feats you need to blow to shore up weaknesses.
It's a conspiracy. That, or one of the designers is dating Driz'zt's sister.
As far as your request..no, it's all I can do to cover Str/Dex/Wis...hmm, unless....
Race: Dwarf
we go 16 14 14 13 10 8:
Str 16 Con 14+2=16
Dex 13 Int 10
Wis 14+2=16 Cha 8
TWF build. Boost Str and Con and Wis, take heavy armor feats, and go Pitfighter.
There's a thread around here somewhere about it (probably better than this) but I can't find it pre-coffee.
It's a conspiracy. That, or one of the designers is dating Driz'zt's sister.As far as your request..no, it's all I can do to cover Str/Dex/Wis...hmm, unless....Race: Dwarfwe go 16 14 14 13 10 8:Str 16 Con 14+2=16Dex 13 Int 10Wis 14+2=16 Cha 8TWF buil
0. Toughness 1. Quick Draw 2. WF Bows 4. WF Heavy Blades 6. TWF 8. TWD 10. Elven Precision 11. Heavy Blade Opp - Retrain something for Scimitar Dance 12. Scimitar Dance if I can't bear to retrain, otherwise Combat Anticipation 14. Alertness 16. Running Shot 18. Uncanny Dodge 20. Danger Sense 21. Armor Specialization: Hide 22. Evasion 24. Defensive Advantage 26. Don't know. 28. Heavy Blade Mastery 30. Two-Weapon Flurry
been doing some thnking on this build a lot .... and honestly ... I think trying to Double Spec is a bad Idea .... but at the very least it gives a good basis ... I think I would change the following 0. Toughness 1. Quick Draw -->Change to Hunter quary 2. WF Bows --->Change to quick Draw 4. WF Heavy Blades
been doing some thnking on this build a lot .... and honestly ... I think trying to Double Spec is a bad Idea .... but at the very least it gives a good basis ... I think I would change the following0. Toughness1. Quick Draw -->Change to Hunter quary
Yeah, I keep going back and forth between the WFs and Lethal Hunter too.
I really think you should get both - trade out the WF in the progression that you're not specializing in and use that for LH. That, however, screws us generalists.
Any input?
Yeah, I keep going back and forth between the WFs and Lethal Hunter too.I really think you should get both - trade out the WF in the progression that you're not specializing in and use that for LH. That, however, screws us generalists.Any input?
I don't have the books with me, but doesn't WF and HQ stack?
With LH, you doing more damage 25% of the time with HQ, but is that 25% of the time really worth losing a +1 from WF. And WF isn't reliant on having to target only your quarry.
I don't have the books with me, but doesn't WF and HQ stack? With LH, you doing more damage 25% of the time with HQ, but is that 25% of the time really worth losing a +1 from WF. And WF isn't reliant on having to target only your quarry.
Hunter's Quarry isn't a feat. it's a Ability you get, for free from being a Ranger. You might be thinking of Lethal Hunter, though.
At least my intent was understood
if your going Ranged then IMHO the WF> LH but for Melee I would think LH > WF Ranged heres why ...
Quarry States that its the nearest enemy that gets the quarry
now again IMHO as a ranged specalist Ranger you would be trying to focus on Healers / Control / Ranged strikers
so I would guess its all based on where you see yourself more often .... in back plinking away .... or in someones face
I personally in the few games I have played have noticed a tendancy to have that Range Gap closed fairly quickly
At least my intent was understoodif your going Ranged then IMHO the WF> LH but for Melee I would think LH > WF Ranged heres why ...Quarry States that its the nearest enemy that gets the quarry now again IMHO as a ranged specalist Ranger you would be
Well, the other difference between Lethal Hunter and WF is how often they can be used. LH is 1/round. WF is 1/hit.You can see more of the math on LH HERE.
the average difference in damage from LH and Standard HQ with a 1[w] attack 1 point difference with 2x 1[w] attacks it drops to .5
so for a Straight Generalist I dont think LH is Worth it but for a more Melee intensive Ranger LH + WF Heavy Blades + TWF and TWD are a better choice since your looking at a 2.5 point average difference with the mainhand and a 1.5 average difference with the offhand (this is whe using Twin attack)
NOTE - Only dealing with Heroic Levels ATM
ya I was filling out an edit and it didnt takethe average difference in damage from LH and Standard HQ with a 1[w] attack 1 point differencewith 2x 1[w] attacks it drops to .5so for a Straight Generalist I dont think LH is Worth it but for a more Mel
Here is my take on a TWF. I plan on going Bastard Sword, because I think it will work better with Cascade, and also because a lot of people will probaby be playing with scimitars, and I want to be different. I do provide a slightly different feat progression afterwards for scimitars. Any help making him better would be appreciated.
R: Elven Accuracy (E) CF: Fighting Style: Two-Blade Fighting Style CF: Hunter's Quarry CF: Prime Shot B: Toughness (+5 HP/tier) 1: Quick Draw (free action; +2 Init) 2: Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) (+1 dmg/hit) 4: Two-Weapon Fighting (+1 dmg/hit with Main weapon) 6: Two-Weapon Defense (+1 shield bonus: AC; Reflex) 8: Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade) (+1 dmg/hit; +2/+3 11/21) 10: Elven Precision (+2 Attack after miss/encounter) 11: Danger Sense (2 init rolls) 12: Seize the Moment (combat advantage over enemy with lower init) 14: Evasion (Reflex; AC; No damage from miss) / Iron Will (+2 feat bonus to Will defense) 16: Defensive Advantage (+2 AC with Combat Advanatage) 18: Heavy Blade Opportunity (at-will with opportunity attack) 20: Blood Thirst; Retrain at 21 to Armor Specialization (Hide) (+1 feat bonus to AC; reduce ACP by 1) 21: Heavy Blade Mastery (Critical hit w/ heavy blade melee attack roll of 19/20) 22: Epic Resurgence (Regain encounter attack power on critical hit) 24: Blind-Fight (Adjacent creatures aren’t concealed or invisible to you) 26: Uncanny Dodge (No +2 Attack Bonus against you with Combat Advantage) 28: Two-Weapon Flurry (Make opportunity attack with off-hand melee weapon) 30: Alertness (No Combat Advantage during surprise; +2 feat bonus to Perception)
Powers (W-At Will; E-Encounter; D-Daily; U-Utility) 1: Twin Strike (W); Hit and Run (W); Dire Wolverine Stike (E); Sudden Strike (D); (2/1/1/0) 2: Yield Ground(U/E); (2/1/1/1) 3: Cut and Run(E); (2/2/1/1) 4: 5: Two-Wolf Pounce(D); (2/2/2/1) 6: Evade Ambush(U/D); (2/2/2/2) 7: Sweeping Whirlwind(E); Retrain: Fox's Cunning(E) (Lose: Dire Wolverine Strike) (2/3/2/2) 8: 9: Attacks on the Run(D); (2/3/3/2) 10: Expeditious Stride(U/E); (2/3/3/3) 11: Blade Storm (Stormwarden); Stormstep Action (Stormwarden); Clearing the Ground (Stormwarden-E); Retrain: Hawk's Talon(E) (Lose: Sweeping Whirlwind) (2/4/3/3) 12: Throw Caution to the Wind(Stormwarden-U/E); (2/4/3/4) 13: Pinning Strike(E); (Lose: Fox's Cunning) (2/4/3/4) 14: 15: Blade Cascade(D); (Lose: Two-Wolf Pounce) Retrain: Armor Splinter(E) (Lose: Pinning Strike) (2/4/3/4) 16: Twin-Blade Storm (Stormwarden); Evade the Blow(U/D) (2/4/3/5) 17: Two-Weapon Evisderate(E) (Lose: Hawk's Talon) (2/4/3/5) 18: 19: Wounding Whirlwind(D) (Lose: Sudden Strike) (2/4/3/5) 20: Cold Steel Hurricane (Stormwarden-D); Retrain: Cruel Cage of Steel(D) (Lose: Wounding Whirlwind) (2/4/4/5) 21: Sly Fortune's Favor (Deadly Trickster) 22: Hit the Dirt (D) (2/4/4/6) 23: Blade Ward (E) (Lose: Cut and Run) (2/4/4/6) 24: Trickster's Control (Deadly Trickster) 25: Not Replacing (D) (Bloodstorm; Tiger's Reflex; Unstoppable Arrows) 26: Epic Trick (Deadly Trickster-U/D) (2/4/4/7) 27: Death Rend(E) (Lose: Two-Weapon Eviscerate) (2/4/4/7) 28: 29: Weave a Web of Steel (D) (Lose: Attacks on the Run) (2/4/4/7) 30: Trickster's Disposition (Deadly Trickster) --------- Weapons: Scimitar(2), Longbow, Daggers(2)
R: Elven Accuracy (E) CF: Fighting Style: Two-Blade Fighting Style CF: Hunter's Quarry CF: Prime Shot B: Toughness (+5 HP/tier) 1: Quick Draw (free action; +2 Init) 2: Two-Weapon Fighting (+1 dmg/hit with Main weapon) 4: Two-Weapon Defense (+1 shield bonus: AC; Reflex) 6: Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade) (+1 dmg/hit; +2/+3 11/21) 8: Elven Precision (+2 Attack after miss/encounter) 10: Lethal Hunter (+1 dmg/round more at 11/21) / Blade Opportunist (+2 bonus to Opportunity Attack rolls with heavy/light blades) 11: Danger Sense (2 init rolls) 12: Scimitar Dance (Dex modifier damage on miss) / Seize the Moment (combat advantage over enemy with lower init) 14: Evasion (Reflex; AC; No damage from miss) / Iron Will (+2 feat bonus to Will defense) 16: Defensive Advantage (+2 AC with Combat Advanatage) 18: Heavy Blade Opportunity (at-will with opportunity attack) 20: Blood Thirst; Retrain at 21 to Armor Specialization (Hide) (+1 feat bonus to AC; reduce ACP by 1) 21: Heavy Blade Mastery (Critical hit w/ heavy blade melee attack roll of 19/20) 22: Epic Resurgence (Regain encounter attack power on critical hit) 24: Blind-Fight (Adjacent creatures aren’t concealed or invisible to you) 26: Uncanny Dodge (No +2 Attack Bonus against you with Combat Advantage) 28: Two-Weapon Flurry (Make opportunity attack with off-hand melee weapon) 30: Alertness (No Combat Advantage during surprise; +2 feat bonus to Perception)
Here is my take on a TWF. I plan on going Bastard Sword, because I think it will work better with Cascade, and also because a lot of people will probaby be playing with scimitars, and I want to be different. I do provide a slightly different feat p
Under each of these we'll discuss the following items: A. Races B. Attributes C. Weapons D. Armor E. Feats F. Skills G. MultiClass possibilities
1. Battlefield Archer A. Races - You'll want a race that has bonuses to Dexterity, and possibly bonuses to Wisdom, Strength, or Constitution. The ideal race for this build is an Elf, followed closely by Human, Eladrin, and Halfling. The Elf has Dexterity and Wisdom, so it the best race for this build. The Halfling has to use a shortbow, so that limits the damage somewhat. B. Attributes - DEX, WIS, Con, Str, Cha, Int. Dexterity is the most important attribute, as it will be your only Attack attribute, and more points should go to this attribute than any other, and this attribute should be raised at every opportunity. Start with a minimum of 16, but 18 or 20 would be optimal. Wisdom is the second most important attribute, as it will adding conditions to the effects of your attacks. Constitution is less important, but it should be kept in mind. Hide Specialization requires a 15 to use by Paragon levels, so if you can afford a 14 at character creation, then you should. Str, Cha, and Int are not used for any attacks, as your Strength will not be raised except at the tier levels, it will not be useful in melee attacks. Otherwise, look at feats that you may want, and see what you need to qualify for them. NOTE: There are some Archer builds that emphasize STR as the secondary attribute, so that if melee is forced upon the archer, they won't stink at it. If you choose to go this route, then put STR as the secondary attribute, and raise it every chance that you get. C. Weapons - Longbow. You don't care about any other weapons. A Frost Longbow provides good synergy with the Wintertouched and Lasting Frost feats at Paragon levels. D. Armor - You want movement to get to the right spot to shoot. Any of the light armors will provide this. Look to get Hide Specialization at Paragon levels for the best light armor with any penalties. E. Feats - Weapon Focus(Bows), Lethal Hunter, Far Shot, Improved Initiative or Quick Draw Racial Feats: Elven Precision(Elf), Action Surge(Human) All of your feats should improve one of several things: Initiative, To Hit, Damage, AC. Unless you are needed to fill a different party role, as in 4E, group optimization often comes ahead of Character Optimization. F. Skills - Stealth and Perception should be the main skills of an Archer. These will help you gain combat advantage on opponents, while not being surprised yourself. Then Nature, Dungeoneering, Acrobatics, Athletics. Endurance can be useful if your GM likes environmental challenges. And if you have no leaders in the party, then Heal might be useful. G. MultiClass possibilities - The two ideal multiclass feats for an archer are Initiate of the Faith or Sneak of Shadows. If the healing in the party is limited, Initiate of the Faith might provide just enough healing to get the party out of tight spots. If the party has healing, but no rogue, then Sneak of Shadows with Thievery is just the feat you want. Your perceptions means that you will find more traps than a single-classed rogue, and you can disarm them. And if you pick up some daggers, you can get sneak attack once an encounter. If you choose the STR route, then Soldier of the Faith or Student of Battle might be helpful.
More discussion on the other builds to come.
I've seen 3 major Ranger builds that seem to work that emphasize the Ranger.1. Battlefield Archer2. TWF Pit Fighter3. TWF StormwardenUnder each of these we'll discuss the following items:A. RacesB. AttributesC. WeaponsD. ArmorE. FeatsF. SkillsG. Mult
I'm looking at how whether it is possible to build a decent hybrid ranger and I keep running into the problem that it seems really hard to keep up magic items in two weapons AND a ranged weapon. The only way I can see dodging that is to avoid powers that require off-hand attacks or to use a throwing weapon instead of a bow but...
Is it just me, or is that fairly crippling?
I'm looking at how whether it is possible to build a decent hybrid ranger and I keep running into the problem that it seems really hard to keep up magic items in two weapons AND a ranged weapon. The only way I can see dodging that is to avoid powers
I'm looking at how whether it is possible to build a decent hybrid ranger and I keep running into the problem that it seems really hard to keep up magic items in two weapons AND a ranged weapon. The only way I can see dodging that is to avoid powers that require off-hand attacks or to use a throwing weapon instead of a bow but...
Is it just me, or is that fairly crippling?
That would be one of the problems that I see with creating a "Both" TWF Ranger.
That being said, I think it is possible to create a TWF Ranger/Stormwarden/Trickster that pumps STR/DEX that would be decent with a bow. But I think your weapons would probably end up looking like this:
1. Main Weapon (Bastard Sword or Scimitar): Level + 1 2. Off-Hand Weapon (Bastard Sword or Scimitar): Level 3. Longbow: Level - 1 4. Armor: Level - 1
So, your longbow would probably be -2 compared to you main weapon (in magical pluses). What I would envision is that the Ranger would be scouting ahead of the party, using their excellent Stealth and Perception. They spot the enemy at range, and use their Longbow to get some hits in without totally leaving the rest of the party. Let their party and the enemy close on them while continuing to use Stealth and the Longbow, and then when the enemy finally closes on the Ranger, they switch to TWF. And, in a wilderness area, the ranger doesn't have to stay where he was as the enemy and the defenders close on each other, he can go to a flanking position, and either get flanking on the enemy's frontlines, or go after their backline squishies. At least, the damage that the Ranger is getting in would be additional damage, as they may not have wanted to get that far ahead of the party.
GH
That would be one of the problems that I see with creating a "Both" TWF Ranger. That being said, I think it is possible to create a TWF Ranger/Stormwarden/Trickster that pumps STR/DEX that would be decent with a bow. But I think your weapons would
Not to range too far off topic, but I haven't seen anyone mention Kensai as a path for the Ranger. The bonus's from Pit Fighter are well documented, but Ultimate Parry and especially Weaponsoul Dance seem quite useful and fluffy for the Ranger.
Am I just missing something?
Not to range too far off topic, but I haven't seen anyone mention Kensai as a path for the Ranger. The bonus's from Pit Fighter are well documented, but Ultimate Parry and especially Weaponsoul Dance seem quite useful and fluffy for the Ranger.Am I
Not to range too far off topic, but I haven't seen anyone mention Kensai as a path for the Ranger. The bonus's from Pit Fighter are well documented, but Ultimate Parry and especially Weaponsoul Dance seem quite useful and fluffy for the Ranger.
Am I just missing something?
I could see a STR/DEX TWF Ranger going for Kensei. A lot would depend upon the mix of encounters that you normally see. The Stormwarden would be better against encounters with minions or similar type mosters, whereas a Kensei would be better against Solo or a few elites.
The big question that I have is concerning Kensei Focus. When it mentions a melee weapon of your choice, does it mean, for example, using any Bastard Sword, or does it mean using a specific Bastard Sword (unique). It looks like the consensus is in the more general form (any Bastard Sword).
There was also a Paragon Path thready that had debates over Kensei vs. Stormwarden. It looks like both paths are pretty close and it depends upon flavor, which one you want to take.
GH
I could see a STR/DEX TWF Ranger going for Kensei. A lot would depend upon the mix of encounters that you normally see. The Stormwarden would be better against encounters with minions or similar type mosters, whereas a Kensei would be better again
Ok, can you guys help me optimize this guy. I'm pretty much stuck with the Level 1 stuff and attributes, though I am asking my DM for permission to rearrange the attributes since this character was created in about 15 minutes when I was DMing to cover the fact that one PC didn't make it to the game session. Obviously, it's a work in progress.
The idea is to boost STR/CON to work with Hammer Rythm, and rely on feats (Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will) and armor (Plate) to make up for the low DEX and Willpower defense..
Ok, can you guys help me optimize this guy. I'm pretty much stuck with the Level 1 stuff and attributes, though I am asking my DM for permission to rearrange the attributes since this character was created in about 15 minutes when I was DMing to cove
Ok, can you guys help me optimize this guy. I'm pretty much stuck with the Level 1 stuff and attributes, though I am asking my DM for permission to rearrange the attributes since this character was created in about 15 minutes when I was DMing to cover the fact that one PC didn't make it to the game session. Obviously, it's a work in progress.
If your GM does let you rearrange some minor things here is what I would do.
Cha 9->8 Con 14->15 This will make it easier to get the hammer feats.
Careful Strike -> Hit and Run. Careful Trap is a trap, as Twin Strike is better than it 19/20 times.
And you'll probably want to look at some of the higher level powers, and exchange some of your lower levels for them.
GH
If your GM does let you rearrange some minor things here is what I would do.Cha 9->8 Con 14->15 This will make it easier to get the hammer feats. Careful Strike -> Hit and Run. Careful Trap is a trap, as Twin Strike is better than it 19/20 times.
Has anyone considered doing a ranger/rogue/daggermaster to be a hybrid melee/ranged character? I don't see anything that stops you from using thrown weapons for the ranger's ranged powers, you wouldn't have to switch weapons out to benefit from the one sneak attack per round, you'd only have to maintain two magic weapons (instead of three for a hybrid that used a bow), and then there's the criticals. The lovely, lovely criticals. With twice the number of attacks and three times the threat range of other characters, you should be critting six times as often. Pick up some feats that trigger on a crit. Say, surprise knockdown and precise hunter; surprise knockdown works particularly well will wintertouched and lasting frost if at least one of your daggers is frost (they can both be, to take advantage of the frost vunerability and increase your chances of having hit with a frost weapon in the last round, or one can be frost and another can be vicious or the like to take advantage of the high crit), allowing you to be constantly knocking down and giving bonuses to hit foes. Add agile hunter and whoever you're attacking will have a hard time attacking back- if you crit, they're on the ground from surprise knockdown and you can shift away from agile hunter... meaning that they have to spend a move to stand and then can't follow you. Probably won't do as much damage as a scimitar dancing stormwarden still, but certainly worthwhile when you consider the things you can start triggering regularly when you crit so often AND you can still make use of ranged powers. As usual, the bugbear will be the best damage dealer with this build; two d6 daggers will be as damaging as a normal scimitar wielder.
Has anyone considered doing a ranger/rogue/daggermaster to be a hybrid melee/ranged character? I don't see anything that stops you from using thrown weapons for the ranger's ranged powers, you wouldn't have to switch weapons out to benefit from the
Has anyone considered doing a ranger/rogue/daggermaster to be a hybrid melee/ranged character? I don't see anything that stops you from using thrown weapons for the ranger's ranged powers, you wouldn't have to switch weapons out to benefit from the one sneak attack per round, you'd only have to maintain two magic weapons (instead of three for a hybrid that used a bow), and then there's the criticals. The lovely, lovely criticals. With twice the number of attacks and three times the threat range of other characters, you should be critting six times as often. Pick up some feats that trigger on a crit. Say, surprise knockdown and precise hunter; surprise knockdown works particularly well will wintertouched and lasting frost if at least one of your daggers is frost (they can both be, to take advantage of the frost vunerability and increase your chances of having hit with a frost weapon in the last round, or one can be frost and another can be vicious or the like to take advantage of the high crit), allowing you to be constantly knocking down and giving bonuses to hit foes. Add agile hunter and whoever you're attacking will have a hard time attacking back- if you crit, they're on the ground from surprise knockdown and you can shift away from agile hunter... meaning that they have to spend a move to stand and then can't follow you. Probably won't do as much damage as a scimitar dancing stormwarden still, but certainly worthwhile when you consider the things you can start triggering regularly when you crit so often AND you can still make use of ranged powers. As usual, the bugbear will be the best damage dealer with this build; two d6 daggers will be as damaging as a normal scimitar wielder.
You still have to use your Dex modifier to attack at range, and your Str modifier to attack at melee range. That's the biggest weakness of hybrid builds.
You still have to use your Dex modifier to attack at range, and your Str modifier to attack at melee range. That's the biggest weakness of hybrid builds.
You still have to use your Dex modifier to attack at range, and your Str modifier to attack at melee range. That's the biggest weakness of hybrid builds.
If you go with a Str/Dex race, like bugbears, you can have 18s in both and pump both. The weakness, then, is the low Wisdom that results so you can't take as much advantage of the secondary effects of your powers. You could also do this build as a ranged only or melee only build and still reap the benefits of multiple hits combined with a high crit range if having a higher wisdom is more important to you.
scrollreader, I wouldn't recommend relying on rogue abilities to attack with dex, because that removes the benefit of going daggermaster with a ranger: the increased number of attacks so that you crit even more often. Either focusing on both dex and str or only picking melee or ranged (with the option to switch to the other; a melee ranger/daggermaster who's unable to close to melee range this round can still use twin strike as a ranged attack with his daggers to have a chance of doing damage and setting up wintertouched/lasting frost) is a better option.
If you go with a Str/Dex race, like bugbears, you can have 18s in both and pump both. The weakness, then, is the low Wisdom that results so you can't take as much advantage of the secondary effects of your powers. You could also do this build as a
Well, the guy who started this thread hasn't posted anywhere on WotC in about 3 weeks. If we want to have all of the juicy bits at the beginning, someone may have to start a new thread.
GH
Well, the guy who started this thread hasn't posted anywhere on WotC in about 3 weeks. If we want to have all of the juicy bits at the beginning, someone may have to start a new thread. GH
the question is, who out there is willing to put all the bits and pieces of ranger optimization in one spot.
still, i hope someone finishes this project, be it in this thread or another. he would deff have my thanks.
the question is, who out there is willing to put all the bits and pieces of ranger optimization in one spot.still, i hope someone finishes this project, be it in this thread or another. he would deff have my thanks.
the question is, who out there is willing to put all the bits and pieces of ranger optimization in one spot.
still, i hope someone finishes this project, be it in this thread or another. he would deff have my thanks.
If someone would PM me on how to create those spiffy Hide buttons, I might be willing to do it. If someone else does it, I'll definitely be contributing.
GH
If someone would PM me on how to create those spiffy Hide buttons, I might be willing to do it. If someone else does it, I'll definitely be contributing. GH
I've been tested 4 times over 20 years and come out an INTJ every time, so I figure that's pretty solid.
