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Rogue: Dagger or Rapier?
2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2008 - 8:20AM #1
Wyrmnax
Posts: 219
Date Joined: 11/12/07
At first, Dagger hands down, because of the attack bonus. that much i know.

But it seems that at later levels, a lot of the damage on your attacks will come from the [W] modifiers on the powers. So, using a weapon that has a higher [W] will have much more effect on a power that does, lets say, 5[W].


Is the dagger able to keep up with it? Even if i take daggermaster, will the crits on 18-20 be better than having double the base damage?

Even more so, when i crit a power that does 3[W] damage with a dagger, how much damage will that give me? 12? or 4 + 2d4?
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2008 - 8:25AM #2
Armisael
Posts: 8,492
Date Joined: 09/17/07
A crit maximizes all of your weapon damage roll. In other words, you do 12 + modifiers there.

In general, Brutal Scoundrels seem to be better served by taking a rapier and a PP other than Daggermaster (Plus Light Blade Mastery, of course), while artful dodgers are pretty pidgeonholed into daggermaster to increase their threat range.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2008 - 8:44AM #3
Wyrmnax
Posts: 219
Date Joined: 11/12/07
But is it really needed to raise your threat range?

I mean, scoundrels will do it anyway since they can easily pull it off.

but for Artful, even on a 3[W] attack, a 1d8 weapon will do more average damage than a critted 1d4 weapon. And you still have the chance to crit those 3d8 ( low, but its there. )
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2008 - 8:46AM #4
Lokathor
Posts: 1,514
Date Joined: 02/14/03
Most magic weapons do gobs of extra damage on a crit (often +1d6 per plus of the weapon), so it's fairly important.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2008 - 8:54AM #5
Saitou
Posts: 32
Date Joined: 06/05/05

Wyrmnax wrote:

But is it really needed to raise your threat range?

I mean, scoundrels will do it anyway since they can easily pull it off.

but for Artful, even on a 3[W] attack, a 1d8 weapon will do more average damage than a critted 1d4 weapon. And you still have the chance to crit those 3d8 ( low, but its there. )


You're trading off a bit more average damage for triple chances to crit. Not to mention a reroll for an action point. And an encounter attack that deals 3[W] with a minor action to a mook you just crit'd. And increasing your d4s to d6s once per day. And, and, and.

It's a pretty tight race until you realise you can also light throw daggers, although this is suboptimal if you're banking more on ranged attacks.

Not to mention 17 STR for Light Blade Mastery is quite a lot when you're not really using it for anything. The best effect Brutal Scoundrel gives you is adding STR to attack... for a couple powers or so. Not to say Artful Dodger is better, though.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2008 - 8:59AM #6
Timlagor
Posts: 1,218
Date Joined: 06/26/04
I believe Daggermaster pays off handsomely for ADs.
LBMastery makes it much less sure for Brutes but remember that LBM comes along 10 whole levels later.

Couple of important factors:
- every magic weapon deals extra dice on a crit
- dagger master can increase daggers to d6 (some of the time)

EDIT: the best effect Brutal Scoundrel gives you is +Str to damage on your sneak attack!
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2008 - 9:13AM #7
Saitou
Posts: 32
Date Joined: 06/05/05

EDIT: the best effect Brutal Scoundrel gives you is +Str to damage on your sneak attack!


Attack bonus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Damage bonus. You're a Rogue, you should be piling damage on like crazy without a +2 or +3 to your Sneak Attacks anyways.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2008 - 9:27AM #8
Strategy_Rose
Posts: 136
Date Joined: 04/13/08
Alright, the math works out like this:

Let's say that you hit with a rapier on a roll of 11 or better, and thus with a dagger on a roll of 10 or better. Your critical hit range with a dagger is 18-20 and your critical hit range with a rapier is just 20. The hitting on an 11 and 10 is done for every trial, regardless of magical bonus to the weapon. Assume that your targets AC scales likewise.

Dagger:
45% = 0
40% = 2.5 AD
15% = 4
Total = 1.6 ADPR

Rapier:
50% = 0
45% = 4.5 AD
5% = 8
Total = 2.425 ADPR

It seems obvious that a rapier is the better choice, but this is misleading. Take a look at what happens when you use a magical +6 dagger and a magical +6 rapier (no special bonuses on critical hits other than the standard +1d6 per plus).

Dagger:
45% = 0
40% = 8.5 AD
15% = 31 AD
Total = 8.05 ADPR

Rapier:
50% = 0
45% = 10.5 AD
5% = 35 AD
Total = 6.475 ADPR

Well, obviously by this level the dagger is better. This is with just a regular magic dagger, we could throw in a vicious comparison (+1d12 on a crit per plus), but you should be able to tell where that one goes.

Now let's consider +6 weapons when the rapier user has light blade master (crits on a 19 or 20)

Dagger:
45% = 0
40% = 8.5 AD
15% = 31 AD
Total = 8.05 ADPR

Rapier:
50% = 0
40% = 10.5 AD
10% = 35 AD
Total = 7.7 ADPR

Even with light blade mastery the dagger comes out on top here, not to mention that by taking light blade mastery and the rapier that you've burned through two feats. Plus the dagger can be thrown at a range of 5/10 when necessary and any magical dagger will return on its own at the end of the attack.

Daggers sure sound pretty nice right about now.

Then again, we weren't being fair again. We only compared the two at no magical bonuses and at +6. I'm sure you're wondering where the cutoff of where the dagger becomes better than the rapier is. Well without light blade mastery the two are just about even at a +2 weapon:

+2 Dagger:
45% = 0
40% = 4.5 AD
15% = 13 AD
Total = 3.75 ADPR

+2 Rapier:
50% = 0
45% = 6.5 AD
5% = 17 AD
Total = 3.775 ADPR

Here the rapier is better on average by .025 average damage per round. The dagger can still be thrown.

The thing is, you won't be getting weapon mastery until you get +5 weapons, so how does a +5 rapier with light blade mastery stack up against a +5 dagger?

Dagger:
45% = 0
40% = 7.5 AD
15% = 26.5 AD
Total = 6.975 ADPR

Rapier:
50% = 0
40% = 9.5 AD
10% = 30.5 AD
Total = 6.85 ADPR

The dagger is slightly better, and you have both feats still.

Remember, all of that was done with standard +1d6 on critical hit weapons. If you get your hands on a +1d8 weapon or a +1d12 on per plus on a critical hit weapon, the dagger outshines the rapier even more.

Throw in synergies with critical hit effects such as epic resurgence, symbol of victory, various powers like Crescendo of Violence, etc. and the fact that you can throw a dagger and I'd prefer to be a dagger wielder myself.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2008 - 9:56AM #9
Neitherman
Posts: 91
Date Joined: 05/30/08
Nicely done rose!
Now we just need to figure what the rapier is actually good for.
Any ideas?
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2008 - 10:00AM #10
Lokathor
Posts: 1,514
Date Joined: 02/14/03
If and only if you really do take the Daggermaster path.

Between the X[w] attacks and the other paragon paths, a case can be made for Rapier over Dagger.
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