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Careful Attack, It's a trap!
2 years ago  ::  Jun 07, 2008 - 4:15PM #1
Strategy_Rose
Posts: 136
Date Joined: 04/13/08
Careful Attack makes itself seem like the At-Will you should take when you really need to hit something. This is rarely true, and extremely situational. Twin Strike is nearly always better. For example:

Assuming an 18 in your main stat (for a +4 bonus), and taking a Goblin Blackblade as a sample lv 1 creature (AC 16) you hit on a 10 or higher (because of +2 proficiency) or 9 or higher with prime shot or a +3 proficiency bonus weapon. Ignoring Prime shot since you shouldn’t be that close you do an average damage of:

Longbow/Battleaxe/1d10 weapon with a +2prof:

Twin Strike
20.25% = 0 AD
49.5% = 5.5 AD
30.25% = 11 AD
Total = 6.05 ADPR

Careful Attack
35% = 0
65% = 5.5 AD
Total = 3.575 ADPR

With two Longswords

Twin Strike
16% = 0 AD
48% = 4.5 AD
36% = 9 AD
Total = 5.4 ADPR

Careful Attack
30% = 0 AD
70% = 4.5 AD
Total = 3.15 ADPR

What do you notice here? Careful attack is always worse in this situation. It has worse average damage per round, and while it has a 70% chance of connecting for an average of 4.5 damage, twin strike has an average of connecting for at least 4.5 damage 84% of the time.

So when does careful attack become better than twin strike? If you only hit on a nat 20 and do 1d10 damage

Careful Attack
85% = 0 AD
15% = 5.5 AD
Total = .825 ADPR

Twin Strike
90.25% = 0 AD
9.5% = 5.5 AD
.25% = 11 AD
Total = .55 ADPR

Even if you only hit on a 19 or 20 and do 1d10 damage the math works out as follows:

Careful Attack
80% = 0 AD
20% = 5.5 AD
Total = 1.1 ADPR

Twin Strike
81% = 0 AD
18% = 5.5 AD .99
1% = 11 AD
Total = 2.09 ADPR


Honestly now, if you're only hitting on a nat 20, you need to get some buffs on yourself or some debilitating status effects on the monster before you attack it. Careful attack isn't useful when you need to do at least some damage, because Twin Strike is still better at that, while cranking out a higher average damage.

tl;dr version: Careful Attack is a terrible at will that Twin Strike will cover for you, then just take hit and run or nimble strike depending on your path choice.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 07, 2008 - 6:06PM #2
Haplo81
Posts: 598
Date Joined: 10/22/07
How big would the bonus have to be on Careful Attack to make it worth using?
Wishlist:
-Alternate ability bonuses for pre-PHB3 races
-Lots more superior implements or an official customization rule
-Monk multiclass feat that grants Unarmed Combatant
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 07, 2008 - 7:09PM #3
xanadu
Posts: 393
Date Joined: 09/21/04
You are absolutely right.

Though this type of "sounds good but is mathematically craptastic" option isn;t exactly unprecedented.

Sometimes I wonder if too many game designers have math SAT scroes under 500.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 07, 2008 - 8:38PM #4
Stardock
Posts: 334
Date Joined: 09/09/06
I think this power would be much better balanced if it did this:

Attack: Str + Wis + AC
Hit: 1[W]

At level 1 against 16AC with a +7 to hit and +3 Wis you'd have:

Chance to hit: 15/20 = 75% (Note: still lower than Twin Strike)
Damage: 5.5 + 3.5 = 9
ADPR: 9 * .75 = 6.75

Note that as your character amasses more and more wisdom this way the attack gets more and more accurate. TWF however gets more and more damage thrown it's way. At level 30 you'd end up with something like this:

With 26 Str 24 Wis
TWF to hit: 15 + 8 + 2 + 6 = 31
CA to hit: 15 + 8 + 6 + 2 + 6 = 37

Against AC 46:
TWF: 51% chance to hit
CA: 60% chance to hit

Against AC 48:
TWF: 36% chance to hit
CA: 50% chance to hit

TWF would still do more damage and should be better to use against lower AC enemies. CA would be useful in the situations where you're facing something with a higher AC.

It is kinda funny how at lower levels CA deals more damage and TWF is more accurate though
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 07, 2008 - 10:31PM #5
MystErikEry
Posts: 2,082
Date Joined: 03/07/04
Careful Attack is useful against Minions, since you just have to hit them in order to kill them, rather than do any actual damage.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 07, 2008 - 10:39PM #6
Stardock
Posts: 334
Date Joined: 09/09/06

MystErikEry wrote:

Careful Attack is useful against Minions, since you just have to hit them in order to kill them, rather than do any actual damage.


Except as noted above you're more likely to hit the minion with Twin Strike then careful attack...

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 07, 2008 - 10:48PM #7
FFTARoxorz05
Posts: 27
Date Joined: 08/23/07
Does anyone ever use the "additional chance to hit" attack in an rpg? Seriously, it seems to be craptastic everywhere. The fact that Twin Strike hits more is pretty funny.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 07, 2008 - 10:56PM #8
Stardock
Posts: 334
Date Joined: 09/09/06

FFTARoxorz05 wrote:

Does anyone ever use the "additional chance to hit" attack in an rpg? Seriously, it seems to be craptastic everywhere. The fact that Twin Strike hits more is pretty funny.


Well the thing about 4th edition is that it should be good, since +hit is so hard to come by. From what I've heard, before release it was a lot better. For some reason the developers brought it down for release.

Inside joke on people bad at math maybe?

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 07, 2008 - 11:00PM #9
Darth_Cyric
Posts: 256
Date Joined: 06/15/07

Stardock wrote:

Well the thing about 4th edition is that it should be good, since +hit is so hard to come by. From what I've heard, before release it was a lot better. For some reason the developers brought it down for release.

Inside joke on people bad at math maybe?


It was originally roll twice, keep the better result.

Then it got changed to a flat +4.

And now it's this crappy version (flat +2).

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 07, 2008 - 11:10PM #10
Stardock
Posts: 334
Date Joined: 09/09/06

Darth_Cyric wrote:

It was originally roll twice, keep the better result.

Then it got changed to a flat +4.


Either of those is better, but the first is pointless since we have Twin Strike. The second one I could see being much better, but I haven't ran the numbers on it to see for sure.

Edit: actually looking at the +4, I think Twin Strike will still be better in most cases...maybe they should've just scrapped this power...

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