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WRT horns: I don't think it's inherently a problem for a race to have a melee-based attack power as long as it's not *the* defining feature of the race. The problem with the minotaur in Dragon isn't that he gets Goring Charge, it's that all of his other abilities are also structured around being a purely physical charge-and-melee type.

Dunno if this has been said before (didn't bother reading all of the posts)... but nice use of a Minotaur with a melee weapon and plate armor picture in a thread about getting away from that.... good job...

Tectorman wrote:

Second off, I agree with Ferol, Debtor of Torm. The Ferocity feature being expanded to Basic Attack (melee or ranged) would be a sufficiently large step in increasing the utility of the feature for all classes while avoiding becoming any more powerful than it was (a Basic Attack is as powerful as a Basic Attack). This also leaves the Paragon feat that increases the attack to any At-Will right where it is.

I really do see where people are going with that, but I still feel like it's a problem that most implement-using classes must then either (A) select at least one at-will power that can be used as a basic attack, restricting their at-will power options or (B) end up with a next to useless racial feature because they selected at-wills more useful to them than the ones that can be used as basic attacks. I guess I'm just kind of on the fence about this one...

(EDIT: I've added an asterisk to Ferocity explaining this dilemma.)

As for your concerns about some classes not being able to do anything with it, consider that they’re in exactly the same boat when the party Warlord (if present) uses a power that calls for Basic Attacks from everyone. The Laser Cleric, Wand Bard, and Shaman (as well as Wizards, Warlocks, Sorcerers, Invokers, and Druids that didn’t take the Basic Attack equivalent powers) are just as out-of-luck as before (and bear in mind that we do not yet have Divine Power or Primal Power, so the Cleric and the Shaman might yet get an At-Will Basic).

I don't think that's quite as comparable. In such a case, the specific Warlord character or player that didn't consider his party's composition when selecting his powers is the one that's in the relative wrong.

Shushoni wrote:

Dunno if this has been said before (didn't bother reading all of the posts)... but nice use of a Minotaur with a melee weapon and plate armor picture in a thread about getting away from that.... good job...

Yeah, I was wondering if anybody would notice. It's unfortunately pretty difficult to find a good picture of a ranged and/or implement-using Minotaur, but I still felt like I wanted a picture, so sue me. :P

Well done I have a soft spot for the ole bull headed peeps. Ever since reading Kaz the minotaur. I am glad though that this allows them to be more than a steroetype and more of a balanced race. one even Mighty Kaz could be proud of.


kudos


Scurge

I just want to say, Crimson, that you did a very competent job converting the old minotaur to something usable. Even more impressively (and usefully) the explanations behind your changes are well-thought out and understandable. It's been a joy to read them.

Most impressive have been your patient responses to other posters on the thread, to whose objections you have replied with polite and considered explanations (my, that was an awkward sentence!). Keep up the good work.

Personally I do think that you may have strayed into overpowered territory in pursuit of a race that feels like a minotaur while being broadly appealing to many types of builds, but that's really picking nits until I get a chance to test the race (which I unfortunately will probably never get the chance to do). Bravo!

As a suggestion, I think gore would be more useful to all classes if it were an immediate reaction to a melee hit.

GORE (Minotaur Racial Power)
Encounter
Immediate Reaction, Melee 1
Trigger: An adjacent enemy hits you with a melee attack
Target: The triggering enemy.
Attack: Strength +4 vs. AC or Constitution +4 vs. AC or Dexterity +4 vs. AC
Increase to +6 at 11th level and +8 at 21st level.
Hit: 1D6+ Strength modifier damage.
Increase to 2D6+ Strength modifier at 11th level and 3D6+ Strength modifier at 21st level.
Special: At 1st level, you determine whether you use Strength or Constitution or Dexterity to attack with this power. Once you make that choice, you can't change it later. When you crit with this power, you also knock the target prone.

Okay one big back and forth is the minor action vs standard of gore.
What if thru level or feats available thru lvl it become minor around say lvl 6?

Crimson_Concerto wrote:

Yeah, I was wondering if anybody would notice. It's unfortunately pretty difficult to find a good picture of a ranged and/or implement-using Minotaur, but I still felt like I wanted a picture, so sue me. :P

try wow websites. might have good chance there.:D

POSSIBLY SIGNIFICANT UPDATE?:

So when I first made this fix, I hadn't considered being able to salvage Heedless Charge, but now I think I'm going to steal a very simple idea presented in another thread. What of...

Heedless: You gain a +2 racial bonus to AC against opportunity attacks you provoke when you move.

This would remove the exclusively melee weapon focus of the ability and make it more useful to everybody, kind of like a less powerful version of the Halfling Nimble Reaction, while still keeping its old utility. If one were to use this, I would of course suggest Beast Within definitely not be used. The two abilities sound similarly powerful to me, but I'm not 100% on it yet...

I'm not sure I see where you're going with this at all. What exactly about it doesn't make sense to you?
Also, it's worth noting that there used to be a Paragon tier feat (Brutal Ferocity) to allow Minotaurs to use an at-will attack power instead of a melee basic attack anyways, so I didn't completely make that up myself. I just gave it to the default race instead of making it take a feat due to FSBNNR (Feats Should Be Nice, Not Required).

Or did you also have a problem with that feat and the old Minotaur?

Actually, I liked it as a feat. Feats should augment things you can already do. Brutal Ferocity is not required, but it makes a small special thing you can do better. If you can as a last act preform a melee basic attack, then a feat to upgrade that to any At-Will Attack which at Paragon Tier will be the same damage or just a little more and an added small effect in most cases and then even more powerful with the damage upgrade most get at Epic tier it works better in my mind. Then again, thats just how I think and how I have read the the design philosophies on how feats should work.

Heedless Charge [Minotaur]
Prerequisite: Minotaur
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus to AC against opportunity attacks you provoke during a charge.

I should point out there is a basic Heroic Tier feat in the PHB called Defensive Mobility that gives you +2 Vs. Oppertunity Attacks. Makes this kinda redundent as a feat, which may be why it was made a racial feature to start with.

I have been working on a Minotaur Barbarian for a game, the 'official' version works well for that but I think I will prepose the chance of using your version to the GM with a fea changes, powering Ferocity back down, removing the feat Headless Charge you put in, Making Gore only nock prone when used as a charge, and changing Opportunity Gore to...

Gore Attack [Minotaur]
Prerequisites: Minotaur, Gore racial power
Benefit: Whenever you make a melee basic attack, you can use your Gore racial power without expending it, even if you have used it this encounter. When you do so, you ignore the power's action type.

This lets a player use Gore as an OA, and in a number of other powers and situations that allow for Melee Basic Attacks...although as the damage of the attack goes up this may become a bit too powerful.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course it is after I post and go on about my way I get another idea to offer up for thought.


GORE (Minotaur Racial Power)
Encounter
Minor Action, Melee 1
Target: 1 creature
Attack: Strength +4 vs. AC or Dexterity +4 vs. AC
Increase to +6 at 11th level and +8 at 21st level.
Hit: 1D6+ Strength modifier damage.
Increase to 2D6+ Strength modifier at 11th level and 3D6+ Strength modifier at 21st level.
Special: This power can be used as a melee basic attack. If you use this power in place of a basic melee attack when you charge and hit,the target is nocked prone.


Heroic Tier Feat

Gore Attack [Minotaur]
Prerequisites: Minotaur, Gore racial power
Benefit: You gain the ability to use your horns as a weapon. Your horns count as a simple melee weapon with the special quality brutal 1 and does 1D6 damage. You also gain Proficiancy in using your horns to make an attack and gain a +2 profficiancy bounus to attacks.


The changes in the power from yours are minor and mostly because the value of nocking someone prone from a melee point of view, it gives you combat advantage, makes it so that a player does not simply just nock an enemy prone at will.

The different feat lets more melee inclined players use the inherant natural weapon for a Minotaur, much like picking up a normal weapon proficiancy feat, and gives Minotaur players a basic melee attack they can use for OA that is on par with the damage that most players can do with them. Also, it combines great with the Greathorn feat, increasing the damage die you can do to 1D8.

On the matter of balance in Paragon tier feats as racial features: I don't necessarily see any issue with this and my response to saying that this is "overpowered" would be to ask: would you feel all racial features to be of appropriate power to make them Heroic tier feats?  An extra At-Will from your own class, or one from any other class as an encounter power as feats seem even too powerful to include at Paragon level, yet the Human and Half-Elf get these from 1st level.

On Gore and Ferocity: I can see the benefits of the changes, but also see others points of being powerful.  While I don't necessarily see either one of them being too powerful on their own as the OP proposed, perhaps having both features as the "default minotaur" is?  Perhaps rewriting Ferocity as a power and having the choice of one of the two as a racial feature?  Taking the second feature could be available as a Paragon tier feat.

My suggestion of Gore Alternative: Perhaps this could be redone as: -

Gore: You may replace Strength with the highest of your statistics when making a basic melee attack or bull rush.
Bull Headed: On a successful charge attack or bull rush, you deal an extra 1d6 of damage.  This increases to 2d6 at 11th level and 3d6 at 21st level.  You may chose to reduce the damage by 1d6 to knock the target prone.

Then, keeping Ferocity as it was previously, the Gore makes this at least vaguely feasible for non-STR based builds and makes the stereotypical minotaur behaviour (charging and "bull rushing") plausible options as well.  Still not the best option in most cases for, say, most Warlock or Wizard builds, but not a terrible option for corner cases where they find themselves trapped in melee or granted an extra attack from a Warlord.

Well, it's been made clear to me thorugh questioning those who have obtained a PHB3 that, while there have been some minor improvements, WotC did not use the PHB3 as an opportunity to fix their Minotaur to an acceptable degree. Therefore, I'll be updating this thread as soon as I get my own hands on the PHB3. Racial features and feats will be modified here as necessary, and I'll even keep future feats and other Minotaur options fixed here.

Note that I will not be modifying every single Minotaur option, of course. If the Minotaurs get options that push them towards STR-primary, weapon-using, melee classes, I have no problem with that. It's only the base racial stat block that will get fixed, along with any options directly referencing or modifying a racial feature that needed to get fixed.

Yes the PHB3 minotaur is a bit of a let down for all of us bull-men fans, I thought these guys were supposed to monitor the boards for player feed back? Did they not see this thread the first frigging month or so it was on the front page?

Every other official race they are so careful with, but the minotaurs just get pigeon-holed. 

This thread has officially been  updated to take the PHB3 version of the Minotaur into account.

I have to admit that I'm not fond of this version of the race, but I don't really want to start a big debate about the design. I do want to suggest one change to the writeup though:

  "Heedless" is annoyingly vague as the name of a racial ability. I'd suggest renaming it to "Heedless Passage" or "Heedless Advance" (if you don't want to change the word entirely).

Mar 30, 2010 -- 6:23PM, Neutronium_Dragon wrote:

"Heedless" is annoyingly vague as the name of a racial ability. I'd suggest renaming it to "Heedless Passage" or "Heedless Advance" (if you don't want to change the word entirely).

Actually, I think that's a good idea. I rather like the sound of "Heedless Passage".

Very pleased with the revision. Glad to see your keeping on top of the Minotaur.

I think my "Bellow" power is on this thread, so I don't need to rewrite it, but I do want to make a recommendation regarding Bellow versus Gore.

Make both of them available to choose from at character creation.  Kind of like how a Genasi can pick his racial encounter power (and if he's not a meleeist Genasi, he need not be stuck with Fiery Riposte (name?)), a meleeist Minotaur could use the current Gore if he wanted, or if he was a ranged Minotaur, he could pick Bellow instead.  This would allow for all the feat support for Gore to remain in place, but it also allows for Minotaur Wizards to not be stuck with a racial encounter power that they are never going to use.

And making this a "choose at character creation" power, you don't compete with races like the Drow, whose power partly stems from the multiple powers they have to choose from.

Personally, regardless of the racial power, the +2 str pigeon holes the race the most into a str based melee role. Then beyond that is the race itself.

Just try looking for a picture of a minotaur that doesn't use an Axe. Then of those pictures who doesn't use a hammer. Then after that anything that is ranged. I think I found 1 picture, before minotaur was ever created for 4e.

The racial traits really don't matter. The Racial power doesn't either. Thats already been shown really with the longtooth and razor claw shifters. Its the stats. The stats are based off historical refrences.

There are very few classes out there that use Str and Con/Wis and are ranged based. The Warlord  and the seeker are about the only two that do.

It's all well and fine for the Ability scores to point a race towards a given set of classes, but the abilities need to be theoretically useful to just about any class.

Apr 4, 2010 -- 4:07PM, chanter_hound wrote:

Personally, regardless of the racial power, the +2 str pigeon holes the race the most into a str based melee role...

The racial traits really don't matter. The Racial power doesn't either.  Thats already been shown really with the longtooth and razor claw  shifters. Its the stats. The stats are based off historical refrences.

There  are very few classes out there that use Str and Con/Wis and are ranged  based. The Warlord  and the seeker are about the only two that  do.

I disagree with the notion that a race only really comes down  to its ability score bonuses. If you want to make a perfectly optimal character, that may be the case, but a race's racial features should still support non-optimal characters, so the Minotaur should be just as condusive to non-optimal characters as the Deva is or as the Warforged is or as the Drow is and so on...

Just try looking for a picture of a minotaur that doesn't use an Axe. Then of those pictures who doesn't use a hammer. Then after that anything that is ranged. I think I found 1 picture, before minotaur was ever created for 4e.

Actually, two of the three pictures I used back up there in the first post are from D&D products pre-PHB3 and feature non-melee, non-weapon Minotaurs.

Apr 2, 2010 -- 9:04PM, Tectorman wrote:

I think my "Bellow" power is on this thread, so I don't need to rewrite it, but I do want to make a recommendation regarding Bellow versus Gore.

Make both of them available to choose from at character creation.  Kind of like how a Genasi can pick his racial encounter power (and if he's not a meleeist Genasi, he need not be stuck with Fiery Riposte (name?)), a meleeist Minotaur could use the current Gore if he wanted, or if he was a ranged Minotaur, he could pick Bellow instead.  This would allow for all the feat support for Gore to remain in place, but it also allows for Minotaur Wizards to not be stuck with a racial encounter power that they are never going to use.

And making this a "choose at character creation" power, you don't compete with races like the Drow, whose power partly stems from the multiple powers they have to choose from.

That's not a bad idea if I were trying to remake Minotaurs completely from scratch, but my intent with this thread is just to make tweaks as minor as possible to what's already in place to make that work. I've even cut down on the relatively original features that I originally included in favor of features much closer to what is presented in the PHB3.

That said, your Bellow is a bit overpowered if I remember it correctly. Minor Action, Close Burst 3, pretty much the same damage and effect as Goring Charge but to multiple targets, additional effect on adjacent targets, and targeting Will instead of AC. It's a bit much.

Apr 4, 2010 -- 4:07PM, chanter_hound wrote:

Just try looking for a picture of a minotaur that doesn't use an Axe. Then of those pictures who doesn't use a hammer. Then after that anything that is ranged. I think I found 1 picture, before minotaur was ever created for 4e.

My avatar is a non-melee minotaur. It could possible be used for a cleric or druid. I think it shows the peaceful side of the minotaur, which many people refuse to belive.

Apr 4, 2010 -- 5:46PM, Crimson_Concerto wrote:

I disagree with the notion that a race only really comes down to its ability score bonuses. If you want to make a perfectly optimal character, that may be the case, but a race's racial features should still support non-optimal characters, so the Minotaur should be just as condusive to non-optimal characters as the Deva is or as the Warforged is or as the Drow is and so on...

My thoughts exactly. My players quite often use races that aren't optimised for a class, and they have more fun for it. In my campaign that is about to start I have a dragonborn warden and a gith rouge. I even played a minotaur paladin once (although that is a melee class). I agree that minotaurs recive the worst pegionholeing of any 4th ed race (inculding Monster Manual races) and some adjustments should be made.

Apr 5, 2010 -- 2:02PM, Crimson_Concerto wrote:

That's not a bad idea if I were trying to remake Minotaurs completely from scratch, but my intent with this thread is just to make tweaks as minor as possible to what's already in place to make that work. I've even cut down on the relatively original features that I originally included in favor of features much closer to what is presented in the PHB3.

That said, your Bellow is a bit overpowered if I remember it correctly. Minor Action, Close Burst 3, pretty much the same damage and effect as Goring Charge but to multiple targets, additional effect on adjacent targets, and targeting Will instead of AC. It's a bit much.

Well, I just think (and would think that you would think) that even Goring Charge is too role-specific.  And adding Bellow as an alternative racial power doesn't even need anything in the way of support (feats and stuff); I just think something along those lines should be there to keep non-meleeists in the running with meleeists.  Let the feat support go to the Goring Charge to keep the meleeist in the limelight; just have something else available, too.

[Edit]Because otherwise, honestly, I think playing a Goliath and refluffing him as a Minotaur is a better solution to keeping the Minotaur only with a meleeist racial power.

And as for it being overpowered, well, that's nothing to fix.  Make it one target, lessen the damage, lose the effect, and if we're making this an alternative rather than replacement power for Goring Charge, lose the extra oomph on adjacent targets.

Apr 6, 2010 -- 5:47AM, Tectorman wrote:

Well, I just think (and would think that you would think) that even Goring Charge is too role-specific.

Well, yes, Goring Charge is definitely too role-specific, but that's why I made so many changes to it, resulting in Gore. Remember, the major reason that Goring Charge is so role-specific is its movement requirement and its standard action requirement. Removing the required movement into melee and allowing it to be used as a minor actions mitigates the melee-centric nature of the power to a degree such that it can still be reasonably used by non-melee classes. It's certainly more benefitial to melee characters, sure, but I think that's okay as long as it is still useable and desireable to non-melee characters.

As for the rest of your post, yes, Bellow is easy to power-down, and yes, your logic about feat support and so on is perfectly reasonable, but all that I meant to say was that I don't think that this thread is necessarily the right place for it. Remember, this is an attempt to fix the Minotaur while injecting as little original work and as few original mechanics as possible, to make it accessable to more people and more campaigns.

Apr 6, 2010 -- 3:48PM, Crimson_Concerto wrote:

Removing the required movement into melee and allowing it to be used as a minor actions mitigates the melee-centric nature of the power to a degree such that it can still be reasonably used by non-melee classes. It's certainly more benefitial to melee characters, sure, but I think that's okay as long as it is still useable and desireable to non-melee characters.

Right here is where I disagree.  A Minotaur Wizard or Seeker or Shaman (or anyone else who never (not rarely, but never) wants to be in melee) is not going to be using this power.  At all.  It's a racial power that other people get that he doesn't, meaning he's at (let's say) 85% of normal power while other characters are at 100%.  Heck, even those rare cases where someone who doesn't want to be in melee gets a power that they can only use in melee, it's still a choice that they could've chosen differently were they so inclined.

Apr 6, 2010 -- 3:48PM, Crimson_Concerto wrote:

As for the rest of your post, yes, Bellow is easy to power-down, and yes, your logic about feat support and so on is perfectly reasonable, but all that I meant to say was that I don't think that this thread is necessarily the right place for it. Remember, this is an attempt to fix the Minotaur while injecting as little original work and as few original mechanics as possible, to make it accessable to more people and more campaigns.

And here is why I'm pushing for this.  I think that if that racial power has "Melee 1" on it, then the race isn't fixed.  And yes, introducing an additional alternative racial power is injecting a bit more original work, even if we give it no feat support, but again, I believe that would "make it accessible to more people and more campaigns".

@Tectorman: You seem to be forgetting that being in melee is not always a choice that the player makes during combat, sometimes a monster just gets past the defender and gets into the caster's face. In those situations it's often nice to have something to fight back with, even if it isn't as powerful as your ranged powers. Compare close blasts and burst to this melee 1. As a caster I would rarely be using my dragon breath power under normal circumstances, but if a monster jumps on me, I can give him a good face full of fire in punishment. It's also sometimes tactically useful not to shift away and range the monster, such as when a rogue is looking for combat advantage and nobody else can provide it. Suffice it to say it isn't difficult to think of situations where a melee power might have its uses for a ranged character, even if the power doesn't get used every single encounter.

Apr 8, 2010 -- 11:05AM, Fedosu wrote:

You seem to be forgetting that being in melee is not always a choice that the player makes during combat, sometimes a monster just gets past the defender and gets into the caster's face. In those situations it's often nice to have something to fight back with, even if it isn't as powerful as your ranged powers.

Mostly this. Think of it as sort of similar to the Wizard's "Shield" Utility Power both in that you never want to need to use it but also in that the conditions where you would be able to use it aren't all that rare. I've never played a ranged character that didn't often find itself in melee range of an enemy. It's just a reality of D&D combat, and when that reality comes up, the Minotaur gets to be a little bit more of a threat than other ranged characters while not interfering with its typical retreat and/or counter-attack.

A Ranged Minotaur isn't going to out of its way to use Gore, of course not. It's just going to wait until the opportunity comes up and them punish the enemy that decided to approach it. It's more of a power of opportunity, understand?

Okay, I would say that there's still a difference between class powers that the class member may not want to be using, but are his "Oh, $#!+" sticks, his last ditch emergency powers, and racial powers.  A member of a class will only be using those powers because he picked them, because he wanted them, which I think is analogous to a Wizard purposefully maintaining his Str score because he wants to MC Fighter (i.e., it's a choice, not something he's stuck with).  A member of a race doesn't get the choice (except (loosely) for the Drow, the Genasi, and my "Gore or Bellow" idea).  So I don't quite buy the comparison to Shield.

Also, comparing it to a Dragonborn's Breath Weapon doesn't fly because I find that to be the minimum requirement for ranged use.  The Wizard's Thunderwave power, the Invoker's similar power of some other name that I can't recall, and the smallest range thrown weapon (I think it's the Tratnyr, but regardless of the name, it's the one with a range of 3/6) are all stuck at a maximum of 3 squares (or 3 squares without a penalty at long range) and they are still intended for use by people who don't want to see the inside of melee combat.  Ergo, I consider "affects things 3 squares away" to be the functional definition for ranged.  Even if it's relatively close, you're still not right on top of your enemy (and vice versa).  Heck, I think I even proposed Bellow be a 3 square burst (or blast, but if we make it target one enemy only, it wouldn't even matter).

Despite that, I think I can get behind the basic idea that it's supposed to be another weapon in the meleeist Minotaur's arsenal or the "Oh, $#!+" stick of the nonmeleeist Minotaur.  We don't call out racial bonuses to skills because even if we have, say, a Deva who doesn't have a good Wisdom score and isn't trained in Religion, it's still there if he needs to contribute to a skill challenge or provide a +2 bonus via aid another.  I don't call out bonuses to skills for that, so I guess I can drop this.

However, there is another problem that I've come to realize that I am going to insist on. 

Consider the Elf Wizard.  He can decide to bump up his Intelligence score and any other score of his choice and he is still good to go.  Str?  Maybe he wants to MC a Str-using class.  Dex or Con?  Wand of Accuracy or Staff of Defense.  Wis or Cha?  Orb of Imposition or Orb of Deception.  Or he might want to MC a class using something besides Int.

And no matter his choice, everything he gets for his race is still good to go. 

Now consider the Minotaur Wizard.  If he bumps up Intelligence and Str, Dex, or Con (for the same reasons as the Elf Wizard above), he's fine.  But if he wants to be good with his Orbs (sounds naughty, but I'll leave it as is), he's sacrificing his racial encounter power to do so.  The Elf?  Still gets to use his Elven Accuracy with no never mind about his stat choices.  The Eladrin?  Has his Fey Step working just fine.  The Deva?  Doesn't care as his Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes still functions as expected. 

But since the Minotaur requires either his Str, Dex, or Con to be high enough (and to be maintained over 30 levels) in order to use his racial encounter power.  Those other races I mentioned get more reliability out of their racial powers than "Hope for a Nat 20", so why's the Minotaur getting shafted?

So I suggest putting "Attack: Your highest ability modifier vs. Reflex (or whatever defense it targets)" instead of making it dependent on a physical stat.  I don't care how it's explained, nor do I think it needs any explaining in the first place (any more than any other mental stat being used for a melee attack).  And even if you don't do that, at the very least, put in a feat that lets a PC do it himself, the way WotC "fixed" the Dragonborn in Player's Handbook Races: Dragonborn (fixed? they used a feat tax to do it but at least they did it).

Apr 10, 2010 -- 6:08PM, Tectorman wrote:

Okay, I would say that there's still a difference between class powers that the class member may not want to be using, but are his "Oh, $#!+" sticks, his last ditch emergency powers, and racial powers.  A member of a class will only be using those powers because he picked them, because he wanted them, which I think is analogous to a Wizard purposefully maintaining his Str score because he wants to MC Fighter (i.e., it's a choice, not something he's stuck with).  A member of a race doesn't get the choice (except (loosely) for the Drow, the Genasi, and my "Gore or Bellow" idea).  So I don't quite buy the comparison to Shield.

I'm afraid that I don't see what the problem is. All racial powers are pretty much utilitarian powers that the character did not get to select, so for the vast majority of them, they'll never be on the same level as powers that the character did get to select.

However, there is another problem that I've come to realize that I am going to insist on. 

Consider the Elf Wizard.  He can decide to bump up his Intelligence score and any other score of his choice and he is still good to go.  Str?  Maybe he wants to MC a Str-using class.  Dex or Con?  Wand of Accuracy or Staff of Defense.  Wis or Cha?  Orb of Imposition or Orb of Deception.  Or he might want to MC a class using something besides Int.

And no matter his choice, everything he gets for his race is still good to go. 

Now consider the Minotaur Wizard.  If he bumps up Intelligence and Str, Dex, or Con (for the same reasons as the Elf Wizard above), he's fine.  But if he wants to be good with his Orbs (sounds naughty, but I'll leave it as is), he's sacrificing his racial encounter power to do so.  The Elf?  Still gets to use his Elven Accuracy with no never mind about his stat choices.  The Eladrin?  Has his Fey Step working just fine.  The Deva?  Doesn't care as his Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes still functions as expected. 

But since the Minotaur requires either his Str, Dex, or Con to be high enough (and to be maintained over 30 levels) in order to use his racial encounter power.  Those other races I mentioned get more reliability out of their racial powers than "Hope for a Nat 20", so why's the Minotaur getting shafted?

So I suggest putting "Attack: Your highest ability modifier vs. Reflex (or whatever defense it targets)" instead of making it dependent on a physical stat.  I don't care how it's explained, nor do I think it needs any explaining in the first place (any more than any other mental stat being used for a melee attack).

Actually, I can't believe that I forgot to do this. There has actually been some precedent for powers that allow the character's highest ability score to be used, and I had meant to update the Minotaur with this feature for this exact reason. Consider it changed.

And even if you don't do that, at the very least, put in a feat that lets a PC do it himself, the way WotC "fixed" the Dragonborn in Player's Handbook Races: Dragonborn (fixed? they used a feat tax to do it but at least they did it).

Feats should be nice, not required. Feat taxes are bad.

Apr 10, 2010 -- 11:08PM, Crimson_Concerto wrote:

Apr 10, 2010 -- 6:08PM, Tectorman wrote:

Okay, I would say that there's still a difference between class powers that the class member may not want to be using, but are his "Oh, $#!+" sticks, his last ditch emergency powers, and racial powers.  A member of a class will only be using those powers because he picked them, because he wanted them, which I think is analogous to a Wizard purposefully maintaining his Str score because he wants to MC Fighter (i.e., it's a choice, not something he's stuck with).  A member of a race doesn't get the choice (except (loosely) for the Drow, the Genasi, and my "Gore or Bellow" idea).  So I don't quite buy the comparison to Shield.

I'm afraid that I don't see what the problem is. All racial powers are pretty much utilitarian powers that the character did not get to select, so for the vast majority of them, they'll never be on the same level as powers that the character did get to select.

I'm afraid that I don't see what the problem is. All racial powers are pretty much utilitarian powers that the character did not get to select, so for the vast majority of them, they'll never be on the same level as powers that the character did get to select.

The problem is this.

"Mr. Deva, you didn't get to select your racial encounter power, did you?"

"No, sir, I did not."

"So how does this affect your role?  You're melee not ranged/ranged not melee/a weapon-user, not an implement-user/etc., so does this become less useful because of that?"

"Not a single bit.  Not one single bit.  I mean, not getting to choose what it is doesn't matter if it's still just as useful no matter what it's going towards."

And it's the same for Mr. Dwarf, Mr. Eladrin, Shir Elf, Mrs. Halfling, Mr. T(eifling), Mrs. Half-Orc, Mr. and Mrs. Shifter, Mr. Goliath, and so many others.  They didn't get to choose their powers.  The powers that they got saddled with aren't on the same level as class powers.  And yet, unlike the Minotaur, what they got stuck with and can't get as much oomph out of as a class power is still universally useful, no matter their choice of class.

What little utility the Halfling's Second Chance is, it gives every bit of that utility completely blind to whether that Halfling is a melee or ranged, weapon- or implement-user.  The Half-Orc's power to add either a d8 or a [W] to the damage of one of his attacks works regardless of class choice, and it works just as often, regardless of class choice.

Like I said, I won't push for this anymore, since I can mentally relegate it to an "Oh, @#!+" stick, but since the other races get better things that "Oh, @#!+" sticks for their racial powers, I'm still disappointed that the Minotaur is getting the short end of the "Oh, @#!+" stick.

Apr 15, 2010 -- 5:55AM, Tectorman wrote:

Like I said, I won't push for this anymore, since I can mentally relegate it to an "Oh, @#!+" stick, but since the other races get better things that "Oh, @#!+" sticks for their racial powers, I'm still disappointed that the Minotaur is getting the short end of the "Oh, @#!+" stick.

What I really don't understand, though, is how it amounts to an "Oh, @#!+" stick to begin with. It's not something uncommon or unexpected for a ranged character to find itself in melee. I mean, unless your DM plays around with very unconventional terrain styles and enemies, I don't see how you really expect your ranged character to avoid melee all encounter long. In a typical encounter, the ranged Minotaur can very much reasonably expect for the opportunity to come up to use its racial power.

That said, I do see your point that this isn't a perfect fix because the fact remains that the power is still more useful to some characters than others, and I agree to an extent, but given the nature of Goring Charge, I'd be stumped on how to make it better than the most current version of Gore unless you're willing to offer some ideas. Again, the purpose of this thread is just to modify what's already there and to make that at least acceptable and practical if perfect and optimal are unattainable.

Given the latest human article, I'd lean towards leaving it as-is (other than to fix the scaling issue) and work with a racial feat that lets them replace Goring Charge with another encounter power of equivalent strength along with some other lesser perk (to make up the difference of the feat cost so that it isn't simply a tax).

Apr 15, 2010 -- 1:28PM, Neutronium_Dragon wrote:

Given the latest human article, I'd lean towards leaving it as-is (other than to fix the scaling issue) and work with a racial feat that lets them replace Goring Charge with another encounter power of equivalent strength along with some other lesser perk (to make up the difference of the feat cost so that it isn't simply a tax).

I would have to disagree. It doesn't matter how good the feat is.  If it's required, then it's still a feat tax. I have to explain this to homebrew races ever once in a while. If the basic racial stat block of a race is not enough on its own, if I need to select some other options in order to make a character of a certian race work, then all that means is that the base stat block doesn't work on its own to begin with, and that's still a problem. Feats should be nice, not required.

If you define a feat tax as one that's seen as required (this one isn't, but leaving that aside) then the majority of desirable feats for any given class are a tax and that's a rather broader definition than most people use.

  In any case, a feat that gives a feat benefit AND swaps the encounter power is no different than a human character of a class that isn't seen as having any good third at-will options (there are several of those) making use of the Wolfstone Heritage feats.

  One could also take the approach of an alternate racial feature from the get-go (my real preference) but not only do we lack a good yardstick for doing so, it's also much more difficult to get something like that accepted, especially among groups that get antsy about changes to official content (a very common issue), than a feat that changes the way something works (since for whatever reason this is more widely accepted). Whether or not you or I feel that using a feat-based approach is the best possible design won't change that reality.

  Edit: One other reason to use either approach (feat-swap or alternate feature option) rather than rewrite the feature flat-out is that it's easier to integrate with future content since the feature swap doesn't require that every future Goring Charge related feat be rewritten to work with the race - they still work for those who've kept Goring Charge. Since it seems that pretty much every racial feat that minotaurs have or will get are going to relate to either Goring Charge or Ferocity (much like nigh every racial feat for dragonborn is about their breath weapon power), it's important to maintain compatibility as much as possible.

Apr 15, 2010 -- 6:15AM, Crimson_Concerto wrote:

What I really don't understand, though, is how it amounts to an "Oh, @#!+" stick to begin with. It's not something uncommon or unexpected for a ranged character to find itself in melee. I mean, unless your DM plays around with very unconventional terrain styles and enemies, I don't see how you really expect your ranged character to avoid melee all encounter long. In a typical encounter, the ranged Minotaur can very much reasonably expect for the opportunity to come up to use its racial power.

It's an "Oh, $#!+" stick in that, for the Minotaur Wizard or other class that doesn't want to be in melee, it's what he uses when and only when things have gone sour.  Considering that the Minotaur Wizards ideal encounter is more likely one where he was never in melee as opposed to one where he was in melee, I hope you can see how this leads to the player hoping he never uses his racial power. 

And this is perhaps the first time I've even seen a racial power created with this expectation.  Usually, they're effects that the player is chomping at the bit to use, not avoid at all costs.  An Eladrin player wants to use his Fey Step, not cringe at the thought.  A Deva player waits for the opportunity to use Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes, he doesn't hesitate to consider it.  Heck, even a meleeist Minotaur is looking forward to using Gore.  But a ranged Minotaur?  It's his last resort, something he'd much rather he never used.

Hence, "Oh, $#!+" stick.

With the official release of the Minotaur, I find myself torn between Concerto's take, and the official WotC take. Consider it a compliment on a piece of work well done, Crimson.

Apr 15, 2010 -- 4:40PM, Neutronium_Dragon wrote:

If you define a feat tax as one that's seen as required (this one isn't, but leaving that aside) then the majority of desirable feats for any given class are a tax and that's a rather broader definition than most people use.

I think that we might just have different definitions of "Required". I see "Required" as being needed to function in a way that is acceptably balanced and well-designed. I don't know of many "desirable feats for any given class" that are thus "Required" and not just "Nice" even if they're very "Nice".

In any case, a feat that gives a feat benefit AND swaps the encounter power is no different than a human character of a class that isn't seen as having any good third at-will options (there are several of those) making use of the Wolfstone Heritage feats.

No examples come to mind of classes not seen as having a good third at-will power, but if they exist, then I would submit that to be more of a flaw in the design of those classes's at-will powers than in the design of the Human's bonus at-will power.

Edit: One other reason to use either approach (feat-swap or alternate feature option) rather than rewrite the feature flat-out is that it's easier to integrate with future content since the feature swap doesn't require that every future Goring Charge related feat be rewritten to work with the race - they still work for those who've kept Goring Charge. Since it seems that pretty much every racial feat that minotaurs have or will get are going to relate to either Goring Charge or Ferocity (much like nigh every racial feat for dragonborn is about their breath weapon power), it's important to maintain compatibility as much as possible.

Actually, I've made small changes to the feats that need changing to match this version of the Minotaur, and the list is pretty small, only five feats, and most of those are actually for Ferocity. The compatibility problem is virtually nonexistent, and all I've needed to do was to Replace "Goring Charge" with "Gore" in some feats and "melee basic attack" with "at-will power" in feats related to Ferocity. Granted, these are only the PHB3 feats, but you can do the same with the feats in the original Playing Minotaurs article and arrive at zero compatibility problems.

Apr 17, 2010 -- 12:58AM, Tectorman wrote:

It's an "Oh, $#!+" stick in that,  for the Minotaur Wizard or other class that doesn't want to be in melee,  it's what he uses when and only when things have gone sour.   Considering that the Minotaur Wizards ideal encounter is more likely one  where he was never in melee as opposed to one where he was in melee, I  hope you can see how this leads to the player hoping he never uses his  racial power. 

And this is perhaps the first time I've even seen  a racial power created with this expectation.  Usually, they're effects  that the player is chomping at the bit to use, not avoid at all costs.   An Eladrin player wants to use his Fey Step, not cringe at the  thought.  A Deva player waits for the opportunity to use Memory of a  Thousand Lifetimes, he doesn't hesitate to consider it.  Heck, even a  meleeist Minotaur is looking forward to using Gore.  But a ranged  Minotaur?  It's his last resort, something he'd much rather he never  used.

Hence, "Oh, $#!+" stick.

Despite the fact that I don't think the Dwarf or Halfing powers are any less "Oh $#!+" stick powers, I'm sort of warming up to this argument, as in I can mostly appreciate where you're coming from without totally disagreeing per se, but here's the problem:

Doesn't Work (PHB3 Minotaur) < Does Work (This Minotaur) < Works Very Well (What you want)

I want for the Minotaur to Work Very Well just as much as you do, I think, and I've even said before that I have no conceptual issues with a completely new Minotaur so that this were possible, but if my purpose here is to stick as closely to the official version of the Minotaur as closely as possible to arrive at absolutely minimal problems with accessibility and compatibility, then I'm not sure how to do much better than Does Work. The compatibility issue that Neutronium_Dragon brings up is a very real one, and if it weren't that case that I could simply replace "Goring Charge" with "Gore" in every racial feat where it comes up, then I would probably bring it further back towards the original until I could make that Does Work. I'd actually be a fan of the Drow-/-Genasi-esque approach of creating a second power if it didn't mean injecting so much original work and thus forcing an accessibility problem.

So, I guess my question is whether anybody has any ideas on how to make Goring Charge "Works Very Well", as opposed to what you view as merely the "Does Work" that Gore achieved.

Apr 18, 2010 -- 3:41AM, Crimson_Concerto wrote:

Apr 15, 2010 -- 4:40PM, Neutronium_Dragon wrote:

If you define a feat tax as one that's seen as required (this one isn't, but leaving that aside) then the majority of desirable feats for any given class are a tax and that's a rather broader definition than most people use.

I think that we might just have different definitions of "Required". I see "Required" as being needed to function in a way that is acceptably balanced and well-designed. I don't know of many "desirable feats for any given class" that are thus "Required" and not just "Nice" even if they're very "Nice".

In any case, a feat that gives a feat benefit AND swaps the encounter power is no different than a human character of a class that isn't seen as having any good third at-will options (there are several of those) making use of the Wolfstone Heritage feats. No examples come to mind of classes not seen as having a good third at-will power, but if they exist, then I would submit that to be more of a flaw in the design of those classes's at-will powers than in the design of the Human's bonus at-will power.

Whenever a class comes out, I always ask if there are enough options for a non-Human to devote himself exclusively to a certain style.  For example, the Warlock after it got Eldritch Strike doesn't qualify, since the capacity to go melee is limited to that one At-Will and is not a feature seen anywhere else in the class.  On the other hand, the Cleric (only talking about the PHB, here) does qualify; he has enough At-Will powers for both styles for an Elf Cleric to devote himself solely to range or solely to melee or divide his power choices as he pleases. 

Then I look to see if the class has a third At-Will in all of the styles it presents.  Again, the Cleric from just the PHB fails in this regard because where an Elf Cleric could devote himself solely to range or melee, a Human has to take a third At-Will power that uses a fighting style he doesn't want to be using with an attack stat he might not even have at a useful level (he wanted good Wis-based attack powers and good Cha-based rider effects, so his Str at best will start off moderate and taper away into "hope for a nat 20" territory).  Kind of like having an Eladrin but without Fey Step and nothing in it's place to make up the difference.

Of course, since PH: Heroes and Divine Power, they've fixed the Cleric, so he's not a problem class in this regard.  As I see it, the problem classes are the Ranger, Artificer and Bard.  They all present "make this certain kind of attack with this kind of device (in the case of the Ranger) using this kind of attack stat" as a valid option, except that Humans have to take some other At-Will that they're not going to use or maybe even can't.  The Artificer needs another Implement power and the Bard needs another everything (actually, he needs at least two more At-Will attacks that use Ranged weapons because even a non-Human couldn't devote himself to that style).

The Ranger is actually so bad off that I think I'm going to just say that at character creation, he gets to pick either Strength or Dexterity for his attack powers and be done with it.  I wish I had something more elegant.

The Assassin and Seeker are even further off.  Like the Ranged Weapon Bard, they present using Ranged Implement attacks (Assassin) as a full and complete attack style (except for the At-Wills which aren't even plentiful enough for a non-Human) or using Melee (thrown) Weapon attacks (Seeker) as a full and complete attack style (again, it's just the At-Wills that are holding this back).

Apr 18, 2010 -- 3:41AM, Crimson_Concerto wrote:

Despite the fact that I don't think the Dwarf or Halfing powers are any less "Oh $#!+" stick powers,

The Dwarf (I'm assuming you're refering to his capacity to Second Wind as a minor action) and the Halfling do have last resort powers, except that they have more general utility, so they're not really last resort.  The Dwarf will be Second Winding if he takes damage at least equal to his healing surge value or perhaps even sooner.  There's a difference between taking damage and taking damage AND being stuck in melee.  First off, one is much more likely and much less situation specific than the other.  Furthermore, if I take damage at range or in melee, it makes no difference in terms of whether I can use this power (as opposed to a Minotaur Wizard who perhaps even wanted to use this, but can't, since his opponent is WAAAAY over there). 

A Halfling will be using his racial power if he gets hit.  Which, again, is useful against any kind of "getting hit", not just in melee, and is much more likely to happen than "getting hit, and you're in melee". 

So yeah, you're right in that their powers are powers that the player uses when things go wrong, but they're still less situation specific and less "last resort". 

Apr 18, 2010 -- 3:41AM, Crimson_Concerto wrote:

I'm sort of warming up to this argument, as in I can mostly appreciate where you're coming from without totally disagreeing per se, but here's the problem:

Doesn't Work (PHB3 Minotaur) < Does Work (This Minotaur) < Works Very Well (What you want)

I want for the Minotaur to Work Very Well just as much as you do, I think, and I've even said before that I have no conceptual issues with a completely new Minotaur so that this were possible, but if my purpose here is to stick as closely to the official version of the Minotaur as closely as possible to arrive at absolutely minimal problems with accessibility and compatibility, then I'm not sure how to do much better than Does Work. The compatibility issue that Neutronium_Dragon brings up is a very real one, and if it weren't that case that I could simply replace "Goring Charge" with "Gore" in every racial feat where it comes up, then I would probably bring it further back towards the original until I could make that Does Work. I'd actually be a fan of the Drow-/-Genasi-esque approach of creating a second power if it didn't mean injecting so much original work and thus forcing an accessibility problem.

So, I guess my question is whether anybody has any ideas on how to make Goring Charge "Works Very Well", as opposed to what you view as merely the "Does Work" that Gore achieved.

My question is this: "What's the point of continuing to settle for "Does Work" when "Works Very Well" is right around the corner and you and me and many others would like to go there?"  Especially when I don't see how a Drow/Genasi approach would inject "so much original work and force an accessibility problem".

But to answer your last question, I'd have to say that it has to work on more than just the guy right next to you.  Say we make it into a charge and retreat (not the game term, but the narrative term).  The Minotaur spends a minor action and makes a "melee" attack against someone within 3-5 squares.  Fluffwise, what happens is that the Minotaur either stays exactly where he is if the guy's right next to him or moves to where the guy is and makes the attack, and then comes right back to where he was.  This preserves the whole "he has to be doing something with his horns" feel, while making it less restrictive against those who don't want to be in melee.  I.e.,

Goring Charge
Much quicker than your size would suggest, you dash towards your opponent and give him the headbutt of death.  As he falls before your onslaught, you have already paced back to where you were, preparing your next strike.
Encounter
Minor Action______Melee 3
Target: One creature
Attack: Highest ability score + 5 vs. AC
__Increase to Highest ability score +8 at 11th level, and Highest ability score +11 at 21st level.
Hit: 1d6 + Highest ability modifier damage.
__Increase to 2d6 + Highest ability modifier damage at 11th level, and 3d6 + Highest ability modifier damage at 21st level.
Special: You may use this in place of a Melee basic attack if you are allowed a Melee basic attack.  The power has a range of "Melee 1" in that case.  If you use this power in that case and hit, you also knock the target prone.

This could even be "Melee 5" for all I care, but again, I'm only asking for at least "Melee 3" because that's the precedent I feel has been set by the Dragonborn, the Wizard's Thunderwave, and the lowest range thrown weapon in the game (again, Tratnyr if I'm not mistaken).

Edit: I added in a qualifier downgrading the Melee 3 to a 1 when it's used as an MBA. 

Apr 18, 2010 -- 9:05AM, Tectorman wrote:

The Dwarf (I'm assuming you're refering to his capacity to Second Wind as a minor action) and the Halfling do have last resort powers, except that they have more general utility, so they're not really last resort.

I'm not really understanding your distinction here between "general utility" and "last resort". The Dwarf and Halfling want to need to use their powers just as often as Minotaurs would want to need to use Gore. No character wants to need to use their second wind, but it's going to happen. No character wants to need to make an enemy reroll its attack against them, but it's going to happen. Many Minotaur characters will not want to end up in melee, but it's going to happen. It's not a last resort but an inevitability.

There's a difference between taking damage and taking damage AND being stuck in melee.  First off, one is much more likely and much less situation specific than the other.  Furthermore, if I take damage at range or in melee, it makes no difference in terms of whether I can use this power (as opposed to a Minotaur Wizard who perhaps even wanted to use this, but can't, since his opponent is WAAAAY over there).

I think that you think that Gore is more specific than it really is. Gore doesn't require that the Minotaur take damage or even than the Minotaur be attacked. All it requires is an adjacent enemy, and that's a pretty inevitable requirement.

A Halfling will be using his racial power if he gets hit.  Which, again, is useful against any kind of "getting hit", not just in melee, and is much more likely to happen than "getting hit, and you're in melee". 

Again, Gore does not require "getting hit, and you're in melee". It just requires "you're in melee."

So yeah, you're right in that their powers are powers that the player uses when things go wrong, but they're still less situation specific and less "last resort".

Whether "getting hit" or "you're in melee" or "you take damage" is more  likely is dependant on the specific encounter in question, but I  wouldn't say that they're too dissimilar from one another.

My question is this: "What's the point of continuing to settle for "Does Work" when "Works Very Well" is right around the corner and you and me and many others would like to go there?"  Especially when I don't see how a Drow/Genasi approach would inject "so much original work and force an accessibility problem".

Because I don't think that "Works Very Well" is as "right around the corner" as you think that it is. The Drow / Genasi approach forces an accessibility problem exactly because it requires so much original work. Getting from Goring Charge to Gore was just modification, not original work, meaning that it's still familiar and thus accessible. It's fixing the problem instead of just throwing it out and replacing it.

But to answer your last question, I'd have to say that it has to work on more than just the guy right next to you.  Say we make it into a charge and retreat (not the game term, but the narrative term).  The Minotaur spends a minor action and makes a "melee" attack against someone within 3-5 squares.  Fluffwise, what happens is that the Minotaur either stays exactly where he is if the guy's right next to him or moves to where the guy is and makes the attack, and then comes right back to where he was.  This preserves the whole "he has to be doing something with his horns" feel, while making it less restrictive against those who don't want to be in melee.  I.e.,

Goring Charge
Much quicker than your size would suggest, you dash towards your opponent and give him the headbutt of death.  As he falls before your onslaught, you have already paced back to where you were, preparing your next strike.
Encounter
Minor Action______Melee 3
Target: One creature
Attack: Highest ability score + 5 vs. AC
__Increase to Highest ability score +8 at 11th level, and Highest ability score +11 at 21st level.
Hit: 1d6 + Highest ability modifier damage.
__Increase to 2d6 + Highest ability modifier damage at 11th level, and 3d6 + Highest ability modifier damage at 21st level.
Special: You may use this in place of a Melee basic attack if you are allowed a Melee basic attack.  The power has a range of "Melee 1" in that case.  If you use this power in that case and hit, you also knock the target prone.

This could even be "Melee 5" for all I care, but again, I'm only asking for at least "Melee 3" because that's the precedent I feel has been set by the Dragonborn, the Wizard's Thunderwave, and the lowest range thrown weapon in the game (again, Tratnyr if I'm not mistaken).

Edit: I added in a qualifier downgrading the Melee 3 to a 1 when it's used as an MBA. 

If there weren't such a disconnect between the flavor and mechanics here, it might work, but there's a big flavor conflict that occurs here with the mechanics if, say, the character is attacking a target on the other side of a wide chasm. Not to say that this is a bad start, but I'd rather stick with a good enough option that has no flavor-mechanic disconnect than a great options with a very questionable flavor-mechanic disconnect. I recognize that there are a couple of existing powers that do this already anyways, but I think it's worth pointing out that none of those powers are forced on a character concept the same way that a racial power is forced on a character of a specific race, so while they're not that great, at least they can easily be avoided. I don't think that it sets a very good prescident to make such a power unavoidable.

Apr 22, 2010 -- 6:22AM, Crimson_Concerto wrote:

I'm not really understanding your distinction here between "general utility" and "last resort". The Dwarf and Halfling want to need to use their powers just as often as Minotaurs would want to need to use Gore. No character wants to need to use their second wind, but it's going to happen. No character wants to need to make an enemy reroll its attack against them, but it's going to happen. Many Minotaur characters will not want to end up in melee, but it's going to happen. It's not a last resort but an inevitability.

Apr 22, 2010 -- 6:22AM, Crimson_Concerto wrote:

I think that you think that Gore is more specific than it really is. Gore doesn't require that the Minotaur take damage or even than the Minotaur be attacked. All it requires is an adjacent enemy, and that's a pretty inevitable requirement.

Apr 22, 2010 -- 6:22AM, Crimson_Concerto wrote:

Again, Gore does not require "getting hit, and you're in melee". It just requires "you're in melee."

Apr 22, 2010 -- 6:22AM, Crimson_Concerto wrote:

Whether "getting hit" or "you're in melee" or "you take damage" is more likely is dependant on the specific encounter in question, but I wouldn't say that they're too dissimilar from one another.

I realize Gore doesn’t require getting hit. That’s not the issue. The issue is the requirement to be in melee. I mean, even accepting that it might be an inevitability in every encounter, I still have to ask how often this is occurring.

I mean, let’s explore the different expectations of the racial powers.

The Dwarf? Only needs to be at less than full hit points to use his second wind (although he could actually use it at full hit points, say if he had some rider effects that triggered off of his second wind, specifically, and he needed to use them right then and despite a waste of a healing surge). This condition is likely to be met during the entire encounter. Will a Minotaur nonmeleeist, who is trying to avoid being in melee, remember, be meeting the conditions of his racial power even half that amount of time?

The Halfling? Needs to be attacked and hit. Being hit is really in the hands of the d20, but the condition of being attacked is likely to be fulfilled no matter when during the encounter we’re talking about. Can you say the same, or even close, or even in the ballpark, for the Minotaur nonmeleeist?

The Elf? Needs to be attacking. Again, this will be occurring probably throughout the entirety of the encounter, so it’s just a question of when would the Elf like to bring this into play, as opposed to "this is likely the one chance during this whole fight that I’ll have to use this power so I better use it now; I wish I was playing a race with less hoops to jump through and more flexibility as to when I can use my race’s features".

The Eladrin? Has only the requirement of having a move action to expend and being able to use powers with the Teleportation keyword. Other than that, it’s just a matter of when he’d like to use it.

The Deva? Has to be rolling a d20. When during the encounter is this condition not being met? As opposed to the Minotaur asking "When during the encounter is the condition of my racial power being met?"

The Goliath? Same thing; pick a time, any time you’d like to use this power and you’re done. No hesitation, just "Do you want to use it? Then use it. Done". A Minotaur nonmeleeist doesn’t have anything close to this much freedom of use, even if being in melee is an inevitability.

So tell me how often completely ranged characters in the games you participate in get stuck in melee? Maybe my experience is different and yours shows that a Minotaur nonmeleeist could, on average, expect to be in melee during half or even more of a typical encounter. I just don’t see it being that often.

Apr 22, 2010 -- 6:22AM, Crimson_Concerto wrote:

If there weren't such a disconnect between the flavor and mechanics here, it might work, but there's a big flavor conflict that occurs here with the mechanics if, say, the character is attacking a target on the other side of a wide chasm. Not to say that this is a bad start, but I'd rather stick with a good enough option that has no flavor-mechanic disconnect than a great options with a very questionable flavor-mechanic disconnect. I recognize that there are a couple of existing powers that do this already anyways, but I think it's worth pointing out that none of those powers are forced on a character concept the same way that a racial power is forced on a character of a specific race, so while they're not that great, at least they can easily be avoided. I don't think that it sets a very good prescident to make such a power unavoidable.

Since when do we care in the slightest about fluff-mechanics disconnects? Especially considering our stance on the ill-advised Small-size weapons restrictions, when was that ever a concern for us?

Because I see the two as being very similar. If Small-size races were allowed to wield the same weapons as Medium-size races, then we have the question of how they deal the same amount of damage despite looking smaller. Or if they don’t look smaller, then how is the Small-size character able to get the kind of workable leverage in order to use the weapon as a weapon? What would happen if a Goliath and a Gnome were to trade weapons for a while, so as to complicate the issue with Fullblades and Bastard Swords and so on existing in two different sizes and yet functioning exactly the same?

Except that we don’t care. We realize (or so I thought) that if players want to explain something away, they’ll find a way to do so. That is a true inevitability. For example, in the case of bladed weapons, because Small-size races are smaller, their razor edges are manufactured even thinner and sharper than the razor edge of a Medium size race. Another example; Small-size races all have the inherent supernatural ability to shrink things to their size (no game mechanics are changed, but this allows for Small-size and Medium-size characters to swap weapons, armor, shields, and so forth, and for it to make sense). Or they have a supernatural gift of leverage, so that even though the Halfling might not even be able to get his hands all the way around the handle of the Goliath’s Fullblade, he can still swing it around just fine.

Or we realize that the players, in having abilities that don’t make sense, might take the time to make sure to not have the issues crop up in the first place. If it doesn’t make sense for the Gnome, proficient in a Greataxe sized for him, to also be able to use a Greataxe twice his height, then the player of that Gnome just doesn’t use such a Greataxe. It wouldn’t look right for the Halfling and the Dragonborn to borrow each other’s armor? Then those two players promise not to offer each other their armor; simple as that.

Or we realize that just because an option is available doesn’t mean it has to be used. Just because a player could play a Small-size character wielding a two-handed weapon doesn’t mean he has to. The option is there, but at no point is it forced; it just exists to be used or not used at the discretion of the individual player. No different than how just because the Beastmaster Ranger exists, that doesn’t mean I have to make my next character, or any of my characters, a Beastmaster Ranger.

But what we two, you and I, don’t accept is the idea that just because some people can’t reconcile how a Small-size race wielding a two-handed weapon would look, that that should impact everyone else who either can figure out how to make it make sense, or don’t care whether it makes sense or not, just so long as it’s mechanically fair, or can’t picture it in their minds, but realize that that should only affect themselves.

So exactly why do we suddenly care about a fluff-mechanics disconnect? I mean, I’ll agree that it’s a stretch for Minotaur to be charging someone across a chasm and then returning to where they were. Or if it’s a flying creature in midair. So what do we do?

Well, based on how we handle issues of the Small-size weapons restrictions removal, the first step is to either provide better fluff or, more likely, let the players provide their own better fluff. For example, it might say charge, but it could also be an incredible leap, very fast and precisely aimed. This all but nullifies the concerns about midair combatants or targets across chasms. Or we could say that it’s a supernatural leap, perhaps infused with the power of the remnant of Baphomet that every Minotaur carries within their soul, whether they worship the guy or not. This lets the power work even if the Minotaur were immobilized (because Baphomet-remnants are just that awesome). Or we could say that the Melee 3 version, when used against someone the Minotaur couldn’t actually reach, is really my Bellow concept. The Minotaur roars, the target looks down at his armor, takes into account how well he can dodge, and then imagines all the bad things you’re going to do to him (to explain why the attack targets AC). If the attack succeeds, it’s because the target lost some confidence (and hps). And heck, to take into account that it would need to work even against a deafened target, there’s no reason this couldn’t be a supernatural roar.

Really, if you can’t explain something away, it’s because you haven’t finished trying.

Or, we could go to the next step, again, based on the removal of the Small-size weapons restrictions. If a player COULD make an attack against a target 3 squares away, and the target is either flying or on the other side of a chasm, and the player can’t imagine the Minotaur doing it through incredible skill or supernatural augmentation, then there’s no reason why the player MUST still use the power at that time. If I can play a Fighter with a polearm and not once make an attack roll against anyone further away from me than adjacent for an entire campaign (and I could if I wanted to), then there’s no reason why a player should feel in the slightest bit forced to use a power in an instance where he can’t imagine how it’s working.

Heck, you yourself are content with the Minotaur only being able to use his racial encounter power against an adjacent target, so even if there’s a target for the Minotaur across a chasm, he should still be able to decide not to use Goring Charge at that time, because sooner or later, he’s bound to be adjacent to an enemy anyway. Right?

Or we could go to the last step, which would be the player playing a Minotaur, having Goring Charge as I described before, being able to attack targets up to 3 squares away, and deciding never to do so for the entire campaign. Effectively, the power becomes "Melee 1" just through the player’s choice of when he decides to let himself use that power. Kind of like how a player can play a Small-size race and limit himself to one-handed weapons, a Minotaur player could just limit himself to only using the "Melee 3 Goring Charge" when it’s Melee 1.

But what we absolutely shouldn’t do is let some players who can’t imagine a Melee 3 Goring Charge working dictate to everyone else who might either have how it would work figured out, or just don’t care whether it looks right or not, or are just content to censor themselves. We don’t accept that as a solution to the Small-size two-handed weapons issue, so I’m surprised you’re suggesting it here.

Heck, the power as it stands right now, already steps on the toes of those who would care about a fluff-mechanics disconnect. I mean, exactly how are you attacking with your horns while using your Charisma? Or your Intelligence or Wisdom (or Constitution, for that matter)? That’s a big fluff-mechanics disconnect, but we don’t care about that, so why start now all of a sudden?

Or for that matter, a range of Melee 1 is any adjacent square, including squares above or below you. Imagine a Minotaur standing on a platform 5 feet above the ground. Standing on the ground below him is a very short Gnome. Technically, the Minotaur can attack that Gnome, but it stretches believability quite a bit not only to have the Minotaur lean over a heck of a lot on that platform in order to reach the Gnome, but to also be able to do it fast enough to make an attack out of it and still stand right back up in the span of, what, a couple of seconds max?

Or we could talk about a Minotaur attacking a creature flying directly above him. He’s already got to be making a leap in order to reach that creature, so I don’t see how making that leap just a bit bigger makes any kind of difference in how much this power already stretches the realm of believability.

…

tl;dr: The Gore attack as it stands already has a fluff-mechanics disconnect, so my version also having one really isn’t any kind of argument against it. Furthermore, a power with "Melee 3; Target: One creature" doesn’t force you to make attack rolls against targets at any set distance, so if a player only wanted to attack adjacent targets, he still could. So I’m seeing no undesirable precident set by my suggestion.

On the contrary, I think the fluff as being a tertiary-at-most concern in the establishment of this power, because it’s the one thing that we know will get taken care of eventually, regardless of what Gore/Goring Charge/Bellow/some-other-name turns out to be.

Holy ****, that's a long post. O_O
But I did manage to read it all, so here I go...

Apr 24, 2010 -- 3:59PM, Tectorman wrote:

I realize Gore doesn’t require getting hit. That’s not the issue.

Really? Because if that's the case, then these two statements are very confusing:

Apr 18, 2010 -- 9:05AM, Tectorman wrote:

There's a difference between  taking damage and taking damage AND being stuck in melee.
...
A  Halfling will be using his racial power if he gets hit.  Which, again,  is useful against any kind of "getting hit", not just in melee, and is  much more likely to happen than "getting hit, and you're in  melee".

Both very heavily seem to imply that you think that Gore would only be useful if the Minotaur is in melee and getting hit or taking damage. It's not necessarily that Gore is more limited than Second Chance, just that it's limited differently.

The issue is the requirement to be in melee. I mean, even accepting that it might be an inevitability in every encounter, I still have to ask how often this is occurring.
...
So tell me how often completely ranged characters in the games you  participate in get stuck in melee? Maybe my experience is different and  yours shows that a Minotaur nonmeleeist could, on average, expect to be  in melee during half or even more of a typical encounter. I just don’t  see it being that often.

I don't think that however often it's occurring is an issue. The only way to make all racial powers be exactly as useful as one another and come up exactly as often as one another no matter what the specific circumstance is to make them all exactly the same. It's totally okay if a ranged character ending up in melee range of an enemy is not as common an occurrence as a character making an attack roll, as long as it's a common enough occurrence to give the power the validity that it needs as an encounter power. Now, unless your DM only has you play battles on wide-open outdoor spaces with no walls or other obstructions, which I don't think many would say is one of the basic design or balance assumptions of the battle system of Dungeons and Dragons, I think that it's going to be a common enough occurrence.

I mean, I’ll agree that it’s a stretch for Minotaur to be charging someone across a chasm and then returning to where they were. Or if it’s a flying creature in midair. So what do we do?

Doing something is better than doing nothing. If one solution doesn't work, then look for another. Or, if you really think that this solution is justifiable, then justify it. What you've tried so far, however, isn't working. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't keep trying, but it does mean that you need to keep trying.

Heck, the power as it stands right now, already steps on the toes of those who would care about a fluff-mechanics disconnect. I mean, exactly how are you attacking with your horns while using your Charisma? Or your Intelligence or Wisdom (or Constitution, for that matter)? That’s a big fluff-mechanics disconnect, but we don’t care about that, so why start now all of a sudden?

One is required to make the power as universally useful as it needs to be to make for a well-designed racial power. The other isn't so required, or hasn't successfully been shown to be. Incidentally, this is also why I'm having trouble accepting your comparison with the Small-size weapon issue, so you're going to have to elaborate on that for me if you really think that it's a viable argument.

What if we replaced the attack power Goring Charge/Gore With a utility power that can be applied to any attack and adds similar riders, sort of a minotaurs version of Promise of storm.

Apr 25, 2010 -- 10:11AM, rampant wrote:

What if we replaced the attack power Goring Charge/Gore With a utility power that can be applied to any attack and adds similar riders, sort of a minotaurs version of Promise of storm.

If Goring Charge can be modified into something of that nature such that the feats and so on that apply to Goring Charge can still apply to this new modification with minimal changes, then that could work, yes, but I'd like to avoid constructing an entirely new power or entirely scrapping the current racial power concept exactly because of the accessability problems already mentioned.

Well that would be the beauty of it, just replace any instance of using the racial attack with using an attack modified by the racial power.

Say +1d4 per tier and prone.

I kinda like the way the min is wrote up ph3 but for the argument that a ranged player would rarely have use of it you could very simply add a push 1-3 effect when used as a charge. Since a charge is a standard action a push 3 would then allow the player to use a move action to retreat away from the target. Also I like to say I do think gore when not used as a charge should be allowed and only be a minor action as it makes sence to me and is balenced to many other racial powers,

could also add a feat that adds push 3 to the gore power as that be even power wise to the dragon borns feat to enlarge it's blast or even more usefull hurle it's breath

last possibility could be to allow the min to shift 1-3 squirs in the direction of the charge after the attack which for the ranged player could realy be usefull so when that monster charges him he can sudenly charge it shift 3 past it then use his move action to move away from it in the other direction possibly closer to his allies

just some humble thoughts

Apr 25, 2010 -- 8:19AM, Crimson_Concerto wrote:

Holy ****, that's a long post. O_O
But I did manage to read it all, so here I go...

Apr 24, 2010 -- 3:59PM, Tectorman wrote:

I realize Gore doesn’t require getting hit. That’s not the issue.

Really? Because if that's the case, then these two statements are very confusing:

Apr 18, 2010 -- 9:05AM, Tectorman wrote:

There's a difference between taking damage and taking damage AND being stuck in melee.
...
A Halfling will be using his racial power if he gets hit.  Which, again, is useful against any kind of "getting hit", not just in melee, and is much more likely to happen than "getting hit, and you're in melee".

Both very heavily seem to imply that you think that Gore would only be useful if the Minotaur is in melee and getting hit or taking damage. It's not necessarily that Gore is more limited than Second Chance, just that it's limited differently.

Um, the part I’m focusing on is the “being in melee”.  Being at less than full hit points will likely be happening all encounter long, so it’s not an issue.  Being attacked successfully is likely going to be happening during at least half the encounter (more, if multiple enemies are attacking the Halfling), so it’s not an issue.  I’m comparing “getting hit” and “taking damage” (two conditions which will be frequently occurring) with “being in melee”, a condition I believe will be happening a significantly less frequent portion of the time, especially considering that a nonmeleeist is actively avoiding that condition to boot.

Apr 25, 2010 -- 8:19AM, Crimson_Concerto wrote:

Apr 24, 2010 -- 3:59PM, Tectorman wrote:

The issue is the requirement to be in melee. I mean, even accepting that it might be an inevitability in every encounter, I still have to ask how often this is occurring.
...
So tell me how often completely ranged characters in the games you participate in get stuck in melee? Maybe my experience is different and yours shows that a Minotaur nonmeleeist could, on average, expect to be in melee during half or even more of a typical encounter. I just don’t see it being that often.

I don't think that however often it's occurring is an issue. The only way to make all racial powers be exactly as useful as one another and come up exactly as often as one another no matter what the specific circumstance is to make them all exactly the same. It's totally okay if a ranged character ending up in melee range of an enemy is not as common an occurrence as a character making an attack roll, as long as it's a common enough occurrence to give the power the validity that it needs as an encounter power. Now, unless your DM only has you play battles on wide-open outdoor spaces with no walls or other obstructions, which I don't think many would say is one of the basic design or balance assumptions of the battle system of Dungeons and Dragons, I think that it's going to be a common enough occurrence.

No, I think I’m going to need an actual answer to this.  How often is a nonmeleeist Minotaur going to be in melee during a typical encounter?  Because you’re saying that as long as it’s common enough, it’s okay.  Well, I’m going to need “common enough” spelled out.  Occurring about half the time; one third of the time; maybe two rounds out of an entire fight?  Where’s the bottom line here?

Apr 25, 2010 -- 8:19AM, Crimson_Concerto wrote:

Apr 24, 2010 -- 3:59PM, Tectorman wrote:

I mean, I’ll agree that it’s a stretch for Minotaur to be charging someone across a chasm and then returning to where they were. Or if it’s a flying creature in midair. So what do we do?

Doing something is better than doing nothing. If one solution doesn't work, then look for another. Or, if you really think that this solution is justifiable, then justify it. What you've tried so far, however, isn't working. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't keep trying, but it does mean that you need to keep trying.

Okay, let’s go through this step by step.

Firstly, your one single problem with the power seems to be the fluff.  So, baring the fluff description, does the power work?  Underpowered, overpowered, ease of integration with the racial feats.  Do the mechanics check out or not?

Second, the fluff.  What fluff would make the power make sense (such as making it supernaturally-empowered, say with the remnant of Baphomet’s power or somesuch)?  And if not, what do we need to add mechanically to make it jive?  Say, adding in “Requirement: you must be able to move to the target’s location” or “Requirement: you cannot be immobilized (or slowed)”.

Because, as I see it, the power already works and it’s already justified.  Mechanically, I don’t see anything faulty with my Goring Charge suggestion.  I’m not sure if it synchs up entirely with the racial feats (or the racial feats as you’ve tweaked them), but if that’s an issue, then tell me where the mechanical pitfalls are and we can address them.

As to the fluff, I don’t care.  Either the player will use the fluff as presented, or the player will substitute fluff of his own imagining that he can reconcile better, or the player will very simply not use the power in an instance where he can’t use any fluff (his own or the fluff presented) to explain what’s going on to his satisfaction.  In any case, I don’t see the fluff as being any kind of hiccup here.  I’m honestly at a loss to understand why you’re even letting this be a sticking point, here.

Apr 25, 2010 -- 8:19AM, Crimson_Concerto wrote:

Apr 24, 2010 -- 3:59PM, Tectorman wrote:

Heck, the power as it stands right now, already steps on the toes of those who would care about a fluff-mechanics disconnect. I mean, exactly how are you attacking with your horns while using your Charisma? Or your Intelligence or Wisdom (or Constitution, for that matter)? That’s a big fluff-mechanics disconnect, but we don’t care about that, so why start now all of a sudden?

One is required to make the power as universally useful as it needs to be to make for a well-designed racial power. The other isn't so required, or hasn't successfully been shown to be. Incidentally, this is also why I'm having trouble accepting your comparison with the Small-size weapon issue, so you're going to have to elaborate on that for me if you really think that it's a viable argument.

It is required, in that without the power being more useful in a less role-specific fashion, the opportunity to use the power is not appearing with enough frequency to my satisfaction, where I’m defining “enough frequency” as being about as often as another race having the opportunity to use their racial power (ideally, they can use their racial power whenever they feel like it, at any point during the entire encounter). 

My comparison with the Small-size weapon issue was to draw attention to the criterion by which my Goring Charge suggestion failed: the fluff.  I was basically equating you with WotC in your reasoning.  Here’s a line-by-line parallel of the two issues.

Mechanically, there’s nothing wrong with Small-size races being able to use two-handed weapons.

Mechanically, there’s nothing wrong with my Goring Charge suggestion (or if there is, tell me what the problem is so we can fix it).

But Small-size races still can’t use two-handed weapons because of a fluff issue.

But the Goring Charge suggestion still got rejected due to a fluff issue.

The idea of Small-size races using two-handed weapons can be explained away without a problem.

The “how” of the Goring Charge can be explained away without a problem.

Or if the individual player doesn’t want his Small-size character to wield a two-handed weapon, he can always decide to limit himself (play a different race, use a different weapon, or don’t use a weapon at all).

Or if the individual player doesn’t want his Minotaur to be able to attack targets 3 squares away, he can always decide to limit himself (only use the power when the target is adjacent).

Just because Small-size races (ideally) could use two-handed weapons in no way means that anyone playing a Small-size weapon-user would be forced to use a two-handed weapon; it’s an option provided, not an option forced.

Just because Minotaurs could attack a target 3 squares away in no way means that anyone playing a Minotaur would be forced to use it when a target is 3 squares away (again, he always has the option to just decide to use it as a Melee 1); it’s an option provided, not an option forced.

So just because some players might have a problem with the fluff issues that arise from Small-size races being able to wield two-handed weapons, that doesn’t mean that those problems are shared or even acknowledged by other players, so why impose limits on them?

So just because some players might have a problem with the fluff issues that arise from Minotaurs being able to attack targets 3 squares away, that doesn’t mean that those problems are shared or even acknowledged by other players, so why impose limits on them?

…

Simply put, Crimson, I brought up the Small-size issue because I was rejecting your reasoning for dismissing my suggestion.  If there’s a legitimate mechanical concern, then by all means, tell me.  But I reject a fluff concern being any kind of reason to dismiss a power for the same reason I reject a fluff concern being any kind of reason to not allow Small-size races to wield two-handed weapons.  A fluff concern is short-lived at best, either resolved as soon as the player comes up with his own way to explain what he’s doing, or resolved by the player not doing something he can’t explain away.

I mean, honestly, when was the last time you did something in-game that you didn’t want to do because you couldn’t explain it away?  Has this ever occurred at all? 

Again, why is this even an issue?

I’m not attached to my suggestion.  If you can think of a better one, then by all means, do so.  Just so long as it’s more useful in more situations, ignorant of role, device-choice, or fighting style.  Let’s not have the Minotaur actually try to compete for “Race with the Racial Power with the Least Opportunities to Use It”. 

Apr 25, 2010 -- 10:18AM, Crimson_Concerto wrote:

Apr 25, 2010 -- 10:11AM, rampant wrote:

What if we replaced the attack power Goring Charge/Gore With a utility power that can be applied to any attack and adds similar riders, sort of a minotaurs version of Promise of storm.

If Goring Charge can be modified into something of that nature such that the feats and so on that apply to Goring Charge can still apply to this new modification with minimal changes, then that could work, yes, but I'd like to avoid constructing an entirely new power or entirely scrapping the current racial power concept exactly because of the accessability problems already mentioned.

A rider-effect sort of power would be role- and situation-neutral enough to satisfy my own definition of “enough frequency”.  However, I have to agree with Crimson here about reengineering the feats; keeping it in the form of some kind of attack of its own right serves better than adding in “any power modified by your race’s Such-and-such racial power” to every such feat.

Besides, we’ve got an attack accuracy rider (Deva), an attack retry rider (Elf), and an attack effect rider (the Half-Orc’s increased damage), as well as a lesser combination (Tiefling).  It’s starting to get redundant.

1. Just a different take on it
   
   RACIAL TRAITS
   Average Height: 7' 1" - 7' 5"
   Average Weight: 320 - 350 lb.
   Ability Scores: +2 Constitution; +2 Strength or +2 Wisdom or +2 Constitution, +2 Strength or +2 Wisdom ; +2 ability score of choice
   Size: Medium
   Speed: 6 Squares
   Vision: normal
   Languages: Common, choice of one other
   Skill Bonuses: +2 Nature, +2 Perception
   Ferocity: When you fall unconscious as a result of having been dropped to 0 hit points or fewer, you can use an basic attack as an immediate interrupt before falling unconscious.
   Heedless Passage: You gain a +2 racial bonus to AC against opportunity attacks that you provoke during a move or charge.
   Vitality: you gain one additional healing surge.
   Goring charge: You can use Gore as an encounter power.
   
   Goring charge (Minotaur Racial Power)
   Encounter
   standard Action, Melee 0
   Target: 1 per square shifted.
   Attack: str, dex, or con modifier +4 vs. Ref
   11th Level: str, dex, or con modifier +6 vs. Ref
   21st Level: str, dex, or con modifier +8 vs. Ref
   Special: Shift up to you speed in a straight line. This shift may go through enemy squires but must end in a empty squares. Make a attack against any enemy you pass through during this shift.
   Hit: 1D6 + str, dex, or con modifier damage; Slide the target 1 square out of your way.
   11th Level: 2D6 + str, dex, or con modifier damage.
   21st Level: 3D6 + str, dex, or con modifier damage.
   
   
       SO I reverted a few things back to the ph3 one (I personally think it wasn’t bad and less changes make it much easier to use with the char builder.
   
   so the changes I made and reason why r as follows
   
   * Ability Scores: +2 Constitution; +2 Strength or +2 Wisdom or +2 Constitution, +2 Strength or +2 Wisdom ; +2 ability score of choice
   
   The first one I simply swapped Str and Con as the primary stat as con is good for all classes extra hp is always good and still fits the race, the second option is the way I do the very common house rule for all races to get a floating score. both ways however make this race good choice for most classes
   
   * Ferocity: When you fall unconscious as a result of having been dropped to 0 hit points or fewer, you can use an basic attack as an immediate interrupt before falling unconscious.
   
   A at will power seamed a little much and every class has a basic attack that’s decent. I simply removed the melee requirement to give the same effect without adding any power. Helps with balance.
   
   * Vitality: you gain one additional healing surge.
   Returned it to ph3 version as it was already effective though possibly redundant extra healing surges r always good.
   
   * Goring charge (Minotaur Racial Power)
   Encounter
   standard Action, Melee 0
   Target: 1 per square shifted.
   Attack: str, dex, or con modifier +4 vs. Ref
   11th Level: str, dex, or con modifier +6 vs. Ref
   21st Level: str, dex, or con modifier +8 vs. Ref
   Special: Shift up to you speed in a straight line. This shift may go through enemy squires but must end in a empty squares. Make a attack against any enemy you pass through during this shift.
   Hit: 1D6 + str, dex, or con modifier damage; Slide the target 1 square out of your way.
   11th Level: 2D6 + str, dex, or con modifier damage.
   21st Level: 3D6 + str, dex, or con modifier damage.
   Miss: The target shifts 1 square to avoid the attack.
   
   I used a version closer to the book will break this down by part
   
   Goring charge
   used the ph3 name as this allows the char builder to be used easier.
   
   standard Action, Melee 0
   Used standard action for 2 reason, one the power is basically a move and a minor action which is = to a standard and secondly not all racial powers such as the orc are minor actions all around made good and usable sense to go this route
   
   Target: 1 per square shifted.
   See the powers description
   
   Attack: str, dex, or con modifier +4 vs. Ref
   11th Level: str, dex, or con modifier +6 vs. Ref
   21st Level: str, dex, or con modifier +8 vs. Ref
   simply put game balance issues, all other racial powers follow the same build so this one should also, though perhaps your to hit bonus would make sense on second though as it was reverted back to standard action, but the modifier are defiantly to fit all other racial powers also all classes benefit from high con.
   
   Special: Shift up to you speed in a straight line. This shift may go through enemy squires but must end in a empty squares. Make a attack against any enemy you pass through during this shift.
   Hit: 1D6 + str, dex, or con modifier damage;
   Special: Slide the target 1 square out of your way.
   By making the movement allow the player to go through the target even possibly hitting more then 1 enemy it becomes very usable for all classes. Ranged attackers will almost always have a melee combatants try to reach them. This very small change both brings the power more on par with a standard action and allows the ranged players to use it to get away from people closing into melee. IE use the power to shift through them then use a move action to increase the gap. As for shifting the target I use shift instead of trample for 2 reasons. 1) it allows the possibility of a feat to add prone to the attack. 2) the change to the racial power was inspired by a different minotaur power that does something similar plus flavor wise it was kinda the minotaur charging and pushing them out of it's way as it came through. As for the shift instead of move well is only way to avoid a ton of Opportunity attacks. Lastly this way the power can hit multi targets bringing the damage closer on par.
   
   I would add some feats to do the following
   
   +2 squares shifted with racial power
   Add prone effect to racial power on hit
   Add +2 scalable damage to all charge attacks (they do always have horns after all)
   Allow char to use a action point when dropped to 0 hp to take a standard action before falling
   +1 speed they do have hoofed feet and it would make sense
   could think of others but I think I done to much without seeing what your opinions were. but these are my thought on it based on your complaint that minotaur were to melee focused to be usable to all classes. look forward to reading your response

For the love of Gygax! Format that thing man.

Apr 28, 2010 -- 9:07PM, rampant wrote:

For the love of Gygax! Format that thing man.

just not looked at it when I wrote it it had all proper spaces and junk looked nice but this damm forums has a tendencey to do it's own thing as it sees fit and fed it up will try to edit it and fix it


**thanks for pointing it out for some reason every time I hit submit the dammed forum would smoosh it all but when I preveiwed or edited it the text was all shown correctly perhaps a html coding somewhere that wasn't closed or whatever but I changed it to a ordered list and it posted right lol. theres a extra 1. now but ahh well least it is readable

Seems to be happening a lot lately, I thought they fixed this.

Why did they switch over to this new system again?

Not sure I understand the racial ability score boosts in your version.

Apr 29, 2010 -- 12:45AM, rampant wrote:

Not sure I understand the racial ability score boosts in your version.

1. was sugesting 2 difrent possible ways of handling it
   Ability Scores:
   1) +2 Constitution & +2 Strength or +2 Wisdom 
   2) +2 Constitution, +2 Strength, or +2 Wisdom & +2 ability score of choice (floating +2)

Final note there freaking rich text system is the worst I have ever dealt with for coding or simply posting.

Apr 28, 2010 -- 11:15AM, stargazer_dragon wrote:

Goring charge (Minotaur Racial Power)
Encounter
standard Action

I thought that this thread had made it abundantly clear that Standard Action racial powers were a bad idea and why that is so. I would recommend that you take some time to read the first page of this thread, which I'm pretty sure covers most if not all of that specific conversation.

one the power is basically a move and a minor action which is = to a standard

That's not true. If you take a standard action to use your racial power, you don't get another standard action to fulfill your class and party role.

and secondly not all racial powers such as the orc are minor actions

A) The Orc is not a PC race. It is an NPC race. PC races and NPC races are designed differently and for different purposes.
B) Not all racial powers are minor actions, no, but I don't think that anybody has suggested that to be the case. Heck, not even all racial attack powers are even minor actions. Just look at the Caustic-Soul Genasi's Acid Surge racial power, which is pretty similar to the power that you're suggesting.

As for you, Tectorman, I apologize that it's taken me so long to respond. Your last post was very, very long, and I kept putting off dealing with it for so long that I ended up forgetting about it, but in light of recent events, I think that this debate might be a moot point.

By recent events, what I'm referring to is:

(From the May 2010 Update)
Infernal Wrath
Page 48: Replace the tieflings infernal wrath power with the following power. This revision brings the tiefling's racial power in line with other racial powers.
Infernal Wrath - Tiefling Racial Power
You call upon the hellfire burning in your soul to punish your enemy.
Encounter - Fire
Free Action - Close burst 10
Trigger: An enemy within 10 squares of you hits you.
Target: The triggering enemy in burst
Effect: The target takes 1d6 + Intelligence or Charisma modifier fire damage.
Level 11: 2d6 + Intelligence or Charisma modifier fire damage.
Level 21: 3d6 + Intelligence or Charisma modifier fire damage.

If WotC is willing to completely scrap a racial power that doesn't work and start over from scratch, then maybe I should reconsider my own stance on original material. If we're having such a disagreement about Gore or other modifications to Goring Charge, then maybe we should just scrap it and start over from scratch as well. After all, I think that the people who would use this Minotaur fix are the same people who would use the above Tiefling fix.

Why, yes, I am a big fan of that change as well.  It's annoying that that change brings along so many other issues, what with feats and so on that need to be updated to take into account the change, but a fix is a fix, whether annoying or not.  The previous version was just too "blah" in it's benefits to really care about.

And like I said, I'm not married to my own fix, I just didn't like the reason it was being discounted (purely fluff reasons).

...

So, what are you planning?  A less situation-specific version of the attack?  A Genasi-Drow multiple choice of racial powers approach?  Something entirely new?

I don't know which, but in case it's the last one, I'll start brainstorming.  For instance, a power that allows the Minotaur to briefly eliminate a specific enemy's benefits from invisibility, concealment, and maybe even cover.  Possibly themed after their penchant for overcoming mazes, as well as their heightened senses.

May 11, 2010 -- 6:50AM, Tectorman wrote:

So, what are you planning?

I'm going back and forthe between a few of ideas right now, but here are the two that are most prominent in my mind:

A) Create a second racial power to pair up alongside my current version of Gore. At first level, a character can select which racial power to learn, just like Genasi.
The thinking behind this is that a Minotaur should still at least have the option of a racial power that utilizes its horns but that they should also have the option to forgo this for a more generally useful power. The concern with this one is that all of the work done into turning Goring Charge into the much more generally useful Gore may appear misplaced if there's going to be a more generally useful power option anyways.

B) Create a second racial power to pair up alongside the original version of Goring Charge. At first level, a character can select which racial power to learn, just  like Genasi.
The thinking behind this is that, because a second, more generally useful power is going to be added, there's really not much reason to change Goring Charge because anybody who wouldn't get any use out of it will have another power option to go to anyways. This also addresses the earlier concerns that Gore is objectively superior to Goring Charge, as it can do exactly what Goring Charge does plus more.

In either case, I like the idea of creating a new racial power to offer in place of the exitisting one as a choice made at first level.

May 8, 2010 -- 1:04PM, Crimson_Concerto wrote:

Apr 28, 2010 -- 11:15AM, stargazer_dragon wrote:

Goring charge (Minotaur Racial Power)
Encounter
standard Action

I thought that this thread had made it abundantly clear that Standard Action racial powers were a bad idea and why that is so. I would recommend that you take some time to read the first page of this thread, which I'm pretty sure covers most if not all of that specific conversation.

I have read and read and read and the most common point was that the ability wasn't usefull becouse it would take non melee char into melee, my version removed this making it a usefull power for all roles.

as for orc no a PC race, I concider all races presented in the char builder as a PC race.

""That's not true. If you take a standard action to use your racial power, you don't get another standard action to fulfill your class and party role""

Most powers do damage to the foe do they not, there fore a power that harms the foe by defoult fulfills the parties primary roll. Survive and kill the oposition.  Tell me a single class where you don't see any powers that damage the foe and I will give you the argument.



But the very most inportant problem I have with you reply is pure and simple, you adress my attempt with a rude reply

"" I would recommend that you take some time to read the first page of this thread, which I'm pretty sure covers most if not all of that specific conversation.""

Perhaps I am just being sensitive tonight, But all the same I simply gave my humble opinion and ones I am fully able to back up and defend but certainly not ones I care if anyone uses.

anyhows the argument is over all moot. I just seldom ignore a responce to soemthing I post without at least a simple reply

Crimson, I would keep Gore as one of the choices, rather than the original Goring Charge.

Why?  Because if we're going to change Goring Charge anyway, then we might as well go the whole haul.

What makes me say that even if we kept Goring Charge, that we'd still be making changes to it?  Because the current Goring Charge is limited to Str, Dex, or Con.  And I imagine there are plenty of Avengers, Paladins, Bards, Artificers, and Ardents who are geared for melee combat and would love a racial charge power if only it wasn't limited to a set of stats that they don't have at any usable level.  Sure, the second Minotaur racial could be completely role-, device-, and stat-neutral, but why nix a charging character from a charging racial power because of a specific set of stat choices?

So I believe that we'd still change Goring Charge even if we kept it as one of the choices.  And I'd hate to see all the work that went into creating the Gore power go to waste.

...

What would the other racial power be?  Another attack or a utility power?  Or an attack-esque power that doesn't require an attack roll?

May 13, 2010 -- 12:30AM, stargazer_dragon wrote:

I have read and read and read and the most common point was that the ability wasn't usefull becouse it would take non melee char into melee, my version removed this making it a usefull power for all roles.

But that's not the only concern. The power still has the issue of being a standard action, which greatly reduces its utility and interferes with a character's fulfillment of its class and party role. Unless there's some sort of emergency, a character should want to be using its standard action to use a class power to filfull its class role. Bluntly, that's not what racial encounter powers are supposed to be doing. They're supposed to be supplementing a character's performance, not altering it entirely. There are no racial powers other than Goring Charge that do this.

as for orc no a PC race, I concider all races presented in the char builder as a PC race.

Then I don't know what to tell you other than that you're mistaken. NPC races can be used to make PCs, sure, but that's not their purpose, and so they're designed differently than PC races are designed. If the Orc were a PC race, then it's racial power would be badly designed as well. The Orc is in the Character Builder to accommodate DMs that allow their use as PCs, which isn't an uncommon allowance. The Character Builder allows for this the same way that it allows for other common allowances such as Inherent Bonuses.

Most powers do damage to the foe do they not, there fore a power that harms the foe by defoult fulfills the parties primary roll. Survive and kill the oposition.  Tell me a single class where you don't see any powers that damage the foe and I will give you the argument.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Different classes perform their party roles different ways. A standard action racial power gets in the way of that by altering the role under which the character is working. For example, most obviously, your power has no real Leader function, so a Leader using it would be betraying its party role for a round, which should only be done in the case of emergencies (Second Wind, etc.).

But the very most inportant problem I have with you reply is pure and simple, you adress my attempt with a rude reply

"" I would recommend that you take some time to read the first page of this thread, which I'm pretty sure covers most if not all of that specific conversation.""

Perhaps I am just being sensitive tonight, But all the same I simply gave my humble opinion and ones I am fully able to back up and defend but certainly not ones I care if anyone uses.

I certainly didn't intend for my reply to sound rude. It's just that I've gone over this a couple of times already, so I figured it would save time to simply point you to the first couple pages of the thread where this was already explained and discussed. Now that I look back at it, it's discussed less than I remember it having been discussed, but the gist of it is still there, and I've repeated pretty much all of it in this post.

May 15, 2010 -- 3:42PM, Tectorman wrote:

Crimson, I would keep Gore as one of the choices, rather than the original Goring Charge.

Why?  Because if we're going to change Goring Charge anyway, then we might as well go the whole haul.

What makes me say that even if we kept Goring Charge, that we'd still be making changes to it?  Because the current Goring Charge is limited to Str, Dex, or Con.  And I imagine there are plenty of Avengers, Paladins, Bards, Artificers, and Ardents who are geared for melee combat and would love a racial charge power if only it wasn't limited to a set of stats that they don't have at any usable level.  Sure, the second Minotaur racial could be completely role-, device-, and stat-neutral, but why nix a charging character from a charging racial power because of a specific set of stat choices?

So I believe that we'd still change Goring Charge even if we kept it as one of the choices.  And I'd hate to see all the work that went into creating the Gore power go to waste.

Sounds fair enough.

What would the other racial power be?  Another attack or a utility power?  Or an attack-esque power that doesn't require an attack roll?

Honestly? I think that racial attack powers are almost painfully overdone. I'd prefer something more utilitarian. Utilitarian racial powers are much easier to make class- and role-neutral anyways.

Here's an idea. I was brainstorming, so I looked up the 3.x minotaur. It had an ability that prevented it from being surprised. How's this as a racial utility? I'm afraid it might be too narrow, though...

Cunning Reaction • Minotaur Racial Power
Encounter
Free Action Personal
Trigger: You are attacked by a creature who has combat advantage against you due to being surprised
Effect: The attack does not benefit from combat advantage.

I was considering an opposed initiative check somewhere in there, but nixed it. Also, maybe I could knock off 'due to being surprised' - then it would be useful in a LOT of situations...

Another idea for the effect;

Effect: The triggering attacker rerolls the attack roll without combat advantage and uses the lowest result. 

May 16, 2010 -- 12:06AM, Crimson_Concerto wrote:

Honestly? I think that racial attack powers are almost painfully overdone. I'd prefer something more utilitarian. Utilitarian racial powers are much easier to make class- and role-neutral anyways.

Sounds fair.  The above idea by Siberys concerning giving the Minotaurs something to emmulate their superior awareness sounds like a possibility.  It's almost a direct copy of one of the Fighter's Level 2 Utility powers from the PHB, but all that that means is that it's easier to compare how useful it is (by no means am I saying that "not granting combat advantage" is a Defender-only thing).

May 16, 2010 -- 8:19PM, Siberys wrote:

Here's an idea. I was brainstorming, so I looked up the 3.x minotaur. It had an ability that prevented it from being surprised. How's this as a racial utility? I'm afraid it might be too narrow, though...

Cunning Reaction • Minotaur Racial Power
Encounter
Free Action Personal
Trigger: You are attacked by a creature who has combat advantage against you due to being surprised
Effect: The attack does not benefit from combat advantage.

I was considering an opposed initiative check somewhere in there, but nixed it.

This doesn't sound like a racial encounter power to me. It sounds more like a racial feature, like "You don't grant combat advantage for being surprised." I say this because a racial encounter power should be general enough to have the potential to be used during every encounter, and I don't think that being surprised happens nearly that often.

Another idea for the effect;

Effect: The triggering attacker rerolls the attack roll without combat advantage and uses the lowest result. 

I'm on the fence about this in comparison to the Halfling's Second Chance. On the one hand, this has a much better effect, but on the other, this has a much more limited trigger. I'm not sure that those really balance out, though...

Also, maybe I could knock off 'due to being surprised' - then it would  be useful in a LOT of situations...

May 17, 2010 -- 7:13AM, Tectorman wrote:

The above idea by Siberys  concerning giving the Minotaurs something to emmulate their superior  awareness sounds like a possibility.  It's almost a direct copy of one  of the Fighter's Level 2 Utility powers from the PHB, but all that that  means is that it's easier to compare how useful it is (by no means am I  saying that "not granting combat advantage" is a Defender-only  thing).

Okay, so as it turns out, I have a home-brewed race with a power that seems almost exactly what you two are describing. Check it out:

Second Sight - Stranger Racial Power
You see a split second into the future and deduce how to properly defend yourself.
Encounter
Immediate Interrupt - Personal
Trigger: You are hit by an attack.
Effect: Gain a +2 bonus to your defenses against the attack, and cancel any and all combat advantage that you were about to grant to the attack.
Special: You can use this power even if surprised.

Originally, the power only cancelled out combat advantage for the attack, but I think that effect alone is a bit underwhelming and underpowered for a racial power, so I also added in a +2 bonus to defenses. Plus, then it can be used to some effect even during an encounter where the enemy hasn't been particularly successful at gaining combat advantage to begin with.

This could be adapted to the Minotaur rather easily, I suppose, if this is the sort of effect that you think might make sense for them, but I have a big personal bias against this in that, if I give a power like this to Minotaurs, then I'll have two major races in my own campaigns with the same racial power. >_<

Super-awareness is probably better represented by a bonus to initiative, or a daily power that allows you to take the higher of two rolls for initiative.

  Of course, there's another possibility: no racial power. Races don't HAVE to have a racial power, and it's better to design the race without a power rather than stretch things to include one.

May 17, 2010 -- 8:53PM, Neutronium_Dragon wrote:

Super-awareness is probably better represented by a bonus to initiative, or a daily power that allows you to take the higher of two rolls for initiative.

Maybe, but daily powers aren't usually a very good fit for racial powers, and it would be very difficult to try to balance a daily racial power with an encounter racial power. It becomes even more difficult to try to balance the choice between a racial power and a static racial feature.

I'm still partial to the idea of somehow making a power out of the Minotaur's spacial awareness.

Of course, there's another possibility: no racial power. Races don't HAVE to have a racial power, and it's better to design the race without a power rather than stretch things to include one.

I don't know of any existing PC races without racial powers, and I do count getting to use Second Wind as a minor action to be the Dwarf's racial power. The whole point of racial powers to to give every character something to do in every combat that is based on their race instead of based on their class, and I like that idea.

Speaking of ideas, since Siberys, mentioned going back to 3.5 to take inspiration from the old Natural Cunning, I've gone to the Monster Manual and 3.5's Monster Manual IV to find out what else we could take inspiration from, and I have a couple:
1) From the 4E PHB, the Minotaur Cabalist's "Call Out the Beast" is a cool effect that I think might look okay as a racial power. Minor action, close burst 5, targets one ally, the ally makes a basic attack as a free action. The only problem I can see with it is that it might be a bit too leaderly of an effect, but it's really useful and useable by any character.
2) From 3.5's MM4, the Greathorn Minotaur has a power called Earth-Warp. Minor action, close burst 2, enemies treat the area as difficult terrain until the end of your next turn. The original effect is supernatural, but it can easily be flavored as not supernatural at all, which I think would better fit with the Minotaur theme. My concern with this one is that it might be too melee-oriented still. Yeah, ranged character can still make use of it, especially to prevent pursuit, but it's still definitely a lot more useful to melee characters, especially defenders.
3) Again, from MM4, tremorsense. I can't believe that I didn't think of it before, but it's pretty in-theme for the Minotaur, what with the whole theme of spacial awareness and subterranian labyrinths. Minor action, personal range, you gain temorsense out to a range of 10 until the end of your next turn. My concern with this one, however, is that while it will often have fantastic out-of-combat utility, there will be a lot of combats where it's just totally useless, which is a shame.

Perhaps a combination of sorts. Resonating Stomp? Minor action, close burst 1, enemies treat the area as difficult terrain until the end of your next turn and you gain tremorsense 5 until the end of your next turn? I'm pretty much just thinking out loud here, but I think that I'm feeling the direction that this is going in pretty well... What do you guys think?

I would once again like to propose allowing them to add a knock-down rider to any attack in a similar manner to the Genasi's Promise of storm

Failing that I'd advise leaving making tremorsense a feat for minnies.

Use the stomp to knock targets prone, and or create difficult terrain. 

May 18, 2010 -- 12:16AM, rampant wrote:

I would once again like to propose allowing them to add a knock-down rider to any attack in a similar manner to the Genasi's Promise of storm

The MM4's Minotaur did get Awesome Blow as a racial bonus feat, so something to the effect of... Free action, personal, triggers when you damage a creature, pushes the creature one square and knocks it prone? I don't know, I feel like it's almost too similar in theme to their other racial power, so I'm pretty partial to the stomp concept right now. It was brought up way earlier in the thread, and I think that it has at least some traction due to the Tauren of WoW.

Failing that I'd advise leaving making tremorsense a feat for minnies.

Use the stomp to knock targets prone, and or create difficult terrain.

When this thread first started out, Gore could knock prone as a minor action. It was expressed that this was a very powerful effect, and even a trip over to the optimization boards confirmed this, so I'd be very hesitant to add that to an area effect minor action.

> I don't know of any existing PC races without racial powers, and I do count
> getting to use Second Wind as a minor action to be the Dwarf's racial power.

  I don't (and Second Wind isn't even strictly a power). Regardless, the dwarf illustrates that a race can work perfectly well without an explicit racial power in the vein of Goring Charge or Second Chance.

LEaving aside the debate over whether or not the dwarf thing counts as a power, he may have a point.

May 18, 2010 -- 4:50AM, Neutronium_Dragon wrote:

Regardless, the dwarf illustrates that a race can work perfectly well without an explicit racial power...

Sure, but it's still there implicitly, and it still serves the same purpose. Even if an explicit racial power is left out entirely, it should be replaced with a comparable racial feature designed to serve that same purpose.

May 17, 2010 -- 11:16AM, Crimson_Concerto wrote:

Okay, so as it turns out, I have a home-brewed race with a power that seems almost exactly what you two are describing. Check it out:

Second Sight - Stranger Racial Power
You see a split second into the future and deduce how to properly defend yourself.
Encounter
Immediate Interrupt - Personal
Trigger: You are hit by an attack.
Effect: Gain a +2 bonus to your defenses against the attack, and cancel any and all combat advantage that you were about to grant to the attack.
Special: You can use this power even if surprised.

Originally, the power only cancelled out combat advantage for the attack, but I think that effect alone is a bit underwhelming and underpowered for a racial power, so I also added in a +2 bonus to defenses. Plus, then it can be used to some effect even during an encounter where the enemy hasn't been particularly successful at gaining combat advantage to begin with.

This could be adapted to the Minotaur rather easily, I suppose, if this is the sort of effect that you think might make sense for them, but I have a big personal bias against this in that, if I give a power like this to Minotaurs, then I'll have two major races in my own campaigns with the same racial power. >_<

Well, I don't know about this other race, but that racial power would be perfect for the Minotaur.  Role-neutral, thematically-fitting, and it is approximately in line with the closest similar racial power officially printed (the Kalashtar's).

May 17, 2010 -- 11:55PM, Crimson_Concerto wrote:

Maybe, but daily powers aren't usually a very good fit for racial powers, and it would be very difficult to try to balance a daily racial power with an encounter racial power. It becomes even more difficult to try to balance the choice between a racial power and a static racial feature.

I'm still partial to the idea of somehow making a power out of the Minotaur's spacial awareness.

Speaking as a homebrewer with a race with a daily racial power, I have to agree.  Putting in a racial power that starts out as a daily power might be okay, but making a race with an either/or option, one an encounter, one a daily, would be a lot harder to adjudicate.

May 17, 2010 -- 11:55PM, Crimson_Concerto wrote:

Speaking of ideas, since Siberys, mentioned going back to 3.5 to take inspiration from the old Natural Cunning, I've gone to the Monster Manual and 3.5's Monster Manual IV to find out what else we could take inspiration from, and I have a couple:
1) From the 4E PHB, the Minotaur Cabalist's "Call Out the Beast" is a cool effect that I think might look okay as a racial power. Minor action, close burst 5, targets one ally, the ally makes a basic attack as a free action. The only problem I can see with it is that it might be a bit too leaderly of an effect, but it's really useful and useable by any character.
2) From 3.5's MM4, the Greathorn Minotaur has a power called Earth-Warp. Minor action, close burst 2, enemies treat the area as difficult terrain until the end of your next turn. The original effect is supernatural, but it can easily be flavored as not supernatural at all, which I think would better fit with the Minotaur theme. My concern with this one is that it might be too melee-oriented still. Yeah, ranged character can still make use of it, especially to prevent pursuit, but it's still definitely a lot more useful to melee characters, especially defenders.
3) Again, from MM4, tremorsense. I can't believe that I didn't think of it before, but it's pretty in-theme for the Minotaur, what with the whole theme of spacial awareness and subterranian labyrinths. Minor action, personal range, you gain temorsense out to a range of 10 until the end of your next turn. My concern with this one, however, is that while it will often have fantastic out-of-combat utility, there will be a lot of combats where it's just totally useless, which is a shame.

Perhaps a combination of sorts. Resonating Stomp? Minor action, close burst 1, enemies treat the area as difficult terrain until the end of your next turn and you gain tremorsense 5 until the end of your next turn? I'm pretty much just thinking out loud here, but I think that I'm feeling the direction that this is going in pretty well... What do you guys think?

I liked the Second Sight power better (just pure preference), but combining the effects is still a good second option.  However, if we make this a close burst, let's at least make it effect more than adjacent enemies for all the reasons that I've gone into already.  Even though this Resonating Stomp power has an effect that works as far away as 5 squares, it'd be nice for the entire effect to work at a greater range (like I've said above, at least a Close Burst 3).

If that's too powerful, then maybe we can think of some lesser effect to apply instead (enemies treat the area of the burst as difficult terrain when moving (so that shifting is left alone)).  Or another effect entirely, although I think this is a decent idea (still love Second Sight more).

If it's difficult to envision, then just add the supernatural component back into the fluff text.  Like I've said before, I don't think any fluff concerns should be a problem, though.

May 18, 2010 -- 12:47AM, Crimson_Concerto wrote:

The MM4's Minotaur did get Awesome Blow as a racial bonus feat, so something to the effect of... Free action, personal, triggers when you damage a creature, pushes the creature one square and knocks it prone? I don't know, I feel like it's almost too similar in theme to their other racial power, so I'm pretty partial to the stomp concept right now. It was brought up way earlier in the thread, and I think that it has at least some traction due to the Tauren of WoW.

This just feels dull and uninspired to me.  Nothing really mechanically wrong or unfair, just boring.  Besides, how many powers in how many classes and how many feats give you the ability to push 1 square anyway?  So, redundant, as well.

If something like this were included, I'd suggest doing the same thing as in 3.5, make it a racial feat (not a free bonus feat, just a racial feat).

May 19, 2010 -- 6:29AM, Tectorman wrote:

However, if we make this a close burst, let's at least make it effect more than adjacent enemies for all the reasons that I've gone into already.  Even though this Resonating Stomp power has an effect that works as far away as 5 squares, it'd be nice for the entire effect to work at a greater range (like I've said above, at least a Close Burst 3).

If that's too powerful, then maybe we can think of some lesser effect to apply instead (enemies treat the area of the burst as difficult terrain when moving (so that shifting is left alone)).  Or another effect entirely, although I think this is a decent idea (still love Second Sight more).

Theoretically, what if the power was formatted as:

Resonating Stomp (Minotaur Racial Power)
Encounter
Minor Action - Close burst 1 or blast 3
Effect: The area becomes difficult terrain for your enemies and you gain Tremorsense 5. The effects of this power last until the end of your next turn.

Including the option of a blast or a burst gives it the potential for more range without making its area too large. Further alternatively, tremorsense could becomes the primary focus of the power instead of the secondary:

Resonating Stomp (Minotaur Racial Power)
Encounter
Minor Action - Personal
Effect: You gain Tremorsense 5 until the end of  your next turn. The next time before the end of your next turn that you hit a target within range of your Tremorsense, you also knock that target prone.

Or we could stick with re-naming and re-flavoring Second Sight, of course. I'm just throwing out as many ideas as I can think of here...

A few thoughts (in no particular order):

1) Formatting for Gore / Goring Charge -
Attack: ATTmod vs Reflex
Special: You may choose any attribute for this attack.  You may not change it later.

Or perhaps

Special: You may choose any attribute to which you have added a racial bonus, as the base for this attack.  You may not change it later.

Look over the Spellscarred powers (FRPG) for a way to handle 3 possible base attributes without being too verbose.

2) Not all Warlocks will find Goring Charge useless.  If you have Armor of Agythis (L1 Daily and probably misspelled), you get what amounts to an aura for the duration of the encounter.  How better to spread the hurt than to charge into a crowd?  If you want to do this you are probably a CON'Lock - plenty of HP to take a hit or two - and have the Pact that gives out a steady stream of THP.

3) I'm actually a Ranged'Lock and I think Bellow would be quite nice thank you - similar to MC'ing Wizard for Thunderwave - get off me, buddy, so I can blast you properly.

4) How about this:
Oversized: You may pick any one weapon with which you are proficient.  You may use Large sized versions of that weapon.  This choice may only be changed when you choose a Weapon Proficiency feat.
Still not really useful for psionics or implement users, but I haven't figured out how to say "You get the next bigger die on your Implement at-will attacks" in rules language.  Although, the thought of a Wizard pulling out a dagger as long as his arm has a certain comic appeal...

May 20, 2010 -- 7:53PM, Crimson_Concerto wrote:

May 19, 2010 -- 6:29AM, Tectorman wrote:

However, if we make this a close burst, let's at least make it effect more than adjacent enemies for all the reasons that I've gone into already.  Even though this Resonating Stomp power has an effect that works as far away as 5 squares, it'd be nice for the entire effect to work at a greater range (like I've said above, at least a Close Burst 3).

If that's too powerful, then maybe we can think of some lesser effect to apply instead (enemies treat the area of the burst as difficult terrain when moving (so that shifting is left alone)).  Or another effect entirely, although I think this is a decent idea (still love Second Sight more).

Theoretically, what if the power was formatted as:

Resonating Stomp (Minotaur Racial Power)
Encounter
Minor Action - Close burst 1 or blast 3
Effect: The area becomes difficult terrain for your enemies and you gain Tremorsense 5. The effects of this power last until the end of your next turn.

Including the option of a blast or a burst gives it the potential for more range without making its area too large. Further alternatively, tremorsense could becomes the primary focus of the power instead of the secondary:

Resonating Stomp (Minotaur Racial Power)
Encounter
Minor Action - Personal
Effect: You gain Tremorsense 5 until the end of your next turn. The next time before the end of your next turn that you hit a target within range of your Tremorsense, you also knock that target prone.

Or we could stick with re-naming and re-flavoring Second Sight, of course. I'm just throwing out as many ideas as I can think of here...

The second version seems more role- and range-neutral than the first, not to mention the effect seems less contrived somehow (you make a powerful stomp affecting a certain area, but gain another benefit at some entirely different range).  If you go with Resonation Stomp over Second Sight, I'd go with the second.

A thought: make the offensive part of Resonating Stomp only applicable to creatures you can detect with your Tremorsense.  Otherwise, you have a Minotaur briefly gaining the ability to detect creatures by their contact with the ground (this doesn't apply to flying creatures), but this Minotaur can also knock a flying creature which this power has nothing to do with prone by some completely unrelated effect, just because the flying creature is still within range 5.

However, I still like Second Sight better, if only because Resonating Stomp strikes me as a good starting point for a power for one of my homebrewed races, but as that's the exact same situation as what you've got with Second Sight, I can't really insist on it (a conceptually modified Merfolk race where the racial power would be a sort of ultrasonic echolocation pulse).

Just out of curiosity, what is this other race (no need to derail the thread if you don't want, just PM me or put in a link to the other thread if it's there) that would be using the original Second Sight?

May 22, 2010 -- 12:54PM, BRJN wrote:

1) Formatting for Gore / Goring Charge -
Attack: ATTmod vs Reflex
Special: You may choose any attribute for this attack.  You may not change it later.

Or perhaps

Special: You may choose any attribute to which you have added a racial bonus, as the base for this attack.  You may not change it later.

Look over the Spellscarred powers (FRPG) for a way to handle 3 possible base attributes without being too verbose.

I'm not sure that I understand the purpose of the suggestion exactly.

2) Not all Warlocks will find Goring Charge useless.

No, but the point is that you would have to go out of your way as a Warlock to select specific powers, feats, magic items, and such to make the power useful instead of it just being useful by default.

3) I'm actually a Ranged'Lock and I think Bellow would be quite nice thank you - similar to MC'ing Wizard for Thunderwave - get off me, buddy, so I can blast you properly.

I actually pretty much forgot about the Bellow power because it was from before the Tiefling update when I didn't want to make such a drastic modification. That said, in its original form in post #74, it's totally overpowered, and while it might be easy to power down, whether it would actually make a thematically interesting power would depend on how exactly it's done.

4) How about this:

Oversized: You may pick any one weapon with which you are proficient.  You may use Large sized versions of that weapon.  This choice may only be changed when you choose a Weapon Proficiency feat.

You already know why this is problematic:

Still not really useful for psionics or implement users...

...I haven't figured out how to say "You get the next bigger die on your Implement at-will attacks" in rules language.

Why should something like that be limited to at-will attacks for an implement user when the weapon damage die boost will apply to all of a weapon user's powers? In either case, while that could theoretically fix Oversized's pigeon-holing problem, the problem that it's pretty overpowered would still be present.

May 22, 2010 -- 4:22PM, Tectorman wrote:

The second version  seems more role- and range-neutral than the first, not to mention the  effect seems less contrived somehow (you make a powerful stomp affecting  a certain area, but gain another benefit at some entirely different  range).

Really? I actually thought that the effect of the second version was a lot more contrived. In the first version, only a small area breaks enough to cause difficult terrain from the initial power of the outburst, but the tremor and sound waves still extend beyond that area, just as I would suspect that one would be able to hear a Wizard's Thunderwave even while not within its area of effect. When it comes to the second version, I can see it being more generally useful, but I think that knocking prone is an odd and somewhat contrived effect to attach to it. However, another more fitting effect could be implemented instead, of course.

A thought: make the offensive part of Resonating  Stomp only applicable to creatures you can detect with your  Tremorsense.  Otherwise, you have a Minotaur briefly gaining the ability  to detect creatures by their contact with the ground (this doesn't  apply to flying creatures), but this Minotaur can also knock a flying  creature which this power has nothing to do with prone by some  completely unrelated effect, just because the flying creature is still  within range 5.

That's a perfectly reasonable concern. Fortunately, it's also easily remedied.

Just out of  curiosity, what is this other race (no need to derail the thread if you  don't want, just PM me or put in a link to the other thread if it's  there) that would be using the original Second Sight?

I haven't actually put it up in a thread yet because I'm looking for somebody to do artwork for it first. I'll PM you the mechanics, though.

May 23, 2010 -- 12:20AM, Crimson_Concerto wrote:

May 22, 2010 -- 12:54PM, BRJN wrote:

Look over the Spellscarred powers (FRPG) for a way to handle 3 possible base attributes without being too verbose.

I'm not sure that I understand the purpose of the suggestion exactly.

I'm looking for a way to write up Gore and not take half a page to do it, but not abbreviate so much that nobody else understands what I'm trying to say.  Back to the drawing boards.

2) Not all Warlocks will find Goring Charge useless.

No, but the point is that you would have to go out of your way as a Warlock to select specific powers, feats, magic items, and such to make the power useful instead of it just being useful by default.

Warlocks are very flexible (and therefore hard to build effectively).  You can be a Melee'Lock, a Ranged'Lock, a teleporter, build around your Curse, be a Dominator, build around Eldritch Blast as an RBA (ranged d10 = throwing big two-handed sword/hammer/axe around the room), several other themes are possible.  You have to pick a theme and work with it.  This is true no matter what race you pick.  But if you already have a theme in mind, certain races help/hinder - not just Minotaurs.  A Warlock already has to "go out of his way" - pick and choose what stuff will help his intended role in the party -  and stick on-topic, no matter what race he is.

Oversized

Why should something like that be limited to at-will attacks for an implement user when the weapon damage die boost will apply to all of a weapon user's powers?

Maybe 'You can pick any one class of implement or weapon; attacks you make using that item gain the bigger die".  Re-write for clarity and fluff to taste.  This un-pigeon-holes it and allows even psions to get in on the fun.
Alternately: "You get the next bigger damage die on your at-will attacks."  I haven't played beyond heroic so I don't know if this would become useless as you get more Encounter/Daily powers.  Certainly you will be THE fellow that rocks at low heroic.  Will the situation balance out over 30 levels?  I dunno.

Accepted: using Oversized, you WILL get DPR-lovers thinking "Minotaur, or any other race ... minotaur, or any other race".  Character devopment-based folks may well not, though.  I saw Oversized in the MM1 and wanted a Minotaur DMPC immediately, just for the mental image.  I am told that love is irrational...

May 23, 2010 -- 6:02PM, BRJN wrote:

I'm looking for a way to write up Gore and not take half a page to do it, but not abbreviate so much that nobody else understands what I'm trying to say.  Back to the drawing boards.

Oh, well, if you're just trying to condense it, then the easiest and most practical way would probably be to abbreviate the "Level 11: ..." and "Level 21:..." parts instead of writing them out completely.

Warlocks are very flexible... You have to pick a theme and work with it.  This is true no matter what race you pick.  But if you already have a theme in mind, certain races help/hinder - not just Minotaurs.

I'm going to have to disagree, particularly with that last sentence. Yes, depending on your class and build, certain races help more than others do, but the racial design goals of the system and the intent of this fix are that all races should always at least help and never hinder, and the Minotaur just doesn't do that. If you play a Minotaur Warlock, you need to play certain very specific and restrictive builds if you don't want to be hindered by your race, and that's bad. If you play a Warlock of almost any other race, certain builds may be more effective than others, but none of them are hindered by your race, and that's what I'm trying to achieve here with the Minotaur.

Alternately: "You get the next bigger damage die on your at-will attacks."  I haven't played beyond heroic so I don't know if this would become useless as you get more Encounter/Daily powers.  Certainly you will be THE fellow that rocks at low heroic.  Will the situation balance out over 30 levels?  I dunno.

Unlike 3.5 where casters were meant to suck at lower levels and fighters were meant to suck at higher levels, 4E is meant to be balanced at all levels of play, so if a mechanic is not balanced at one level of play, then the mechanic is not balanced.

May 23, 2010 -- 12:20AM, Crimson_Concerto wrote:

I actually pretty much forgot about the Bellow power because it was from before the Tiefling update when I didn't want to make such a drastic modification. That said, in its original form in post #74, it's totally overpowered, and while it might be easy to power down, whether it would actually make a thematically interesting power would depend on how exactly it's done.

Look, should I post an updated version of Bellow just to end all the references to the original?  Yes, the original version of Bellow was more powerful, but that was because it was supposed to be a complete replacement for the Minotaur's racial power, rather than one of two alternatives.

Bellow (revised)------Minotaur racial power
Sucking in a deep breath, you let loose a terrible roar with all the savage fury you can muster, reminding all who hear it that you are, after all, a monstrous humanoid.
Encounter + Fear
Minor Action-----------Close burst 5
Target: Each enemy in burst
Attack: Your highest ability +3 vs. Will
Level 11: Your highest ability +6 vs. Will
Level 21: Your highest ability +9 vs. Will
Hit: You push the target 3 squares.

Alternatively,
Close burst 3 or Close blast 5 or Close blast 3

Alternatively,
Hit: The target takes a -2 penalty to all defenses until the start of your next turn.

Or,
Hit: The target is slowed until the start of your next turn.

Or,
Hit: Until the start of your next turn, the target treats all squares within 3 squares of you as difficult terrain.

May 23, 2010 -- 12:20AM, Crimson_Concerto wrote:

Really? I actually thought that the effect of the second version was a lot more contrived. In the first version, only a small area breaks enough to cause difficult terrain from the initial power of the outburst, but the tremor and sound waves still extend beyond that area, just as I would suspect that one would be able to hear a Wizard's Thunderwave even while not within its area of effect. When it comes to the second version, I can see it being more generally useful, but I think that knocking prone is an odd and somewhat contrived effect to attach to it. However, another more fitting effect could be implemented instead, of course.

I'm liking a fear effect as an alternative to knocking a target prone.  We could combine part of the Bellow concept with the Resonating Stomp.  The Minotaur delves into her latent savage nature, striking fear into those nearby while briefly reattuning herself with her primal heightened senses.

Close burst 3/5, no attack roll, Effect: Until the start of your next turn, the target cannot gain combat advantage against you for any reason and the target treats all squares within 3 squares of you as difficult terrain.

Alternatively,
... the target treats all squares within 3 squares of you as difficult terrain when moving towards you.

...

I still gotta say that I'm liking the Second Sight for its association with the Minotaur's capacity for intuitive knowledge (less likely to be caught by surprise, superior senses), though.

Incidentally, yes, I'd like to see the list of racial feats and paragon paths for the Stranger (in another PM, of course).  Also, what's the Unknown language?  A fixed language that you haven't decided on yet (specifically Elven or specifically Dwarven, etc.) , a campaign specific language, or what?

May 28, 2010 -- 10:26PM, Tectorman wrote:

Bellow (revised)------Minotaur racial power
Sucking in a deep breath, you let loose a terrible roar with all the savage fury you can muster, reminding all who hear it that you are, after all, a monstrous humanoid.
Encounter + Fear
Minor Action-----------Close burst 5
Target: Each enemy in burst
Attack: Your highest ability +3 vs. Will
Level 11: Your highest ability +6 vs. Will
Level 21: Your highest ability +9 vs. Will
Hit: You push the target 3 squares.

Alternatively,
Close burst 3 or Close blast 5 or Close blast 3

I can't help but think that's too much. Even as a close blast 3, I feel like push 2 is sufficient, maybe push 3 via a racial feat.

Alternatively,
Hit: The target takes a -2 penalty to all defenses until the start of your next turn.

I could see that, sure.

Or,
Hit: The target is slowed until the start of your next turn.

I think it's iffy whether that's a balanced effect if against more than a single target.

Or,
Hit: Until the start of your next turn, the target treats all squares within 3 squares of you as difficult terrain.

I could see that working, but again, it seems more like a single-target thing.

Close burst 3/5, no attack roll, Effect: Until the start of your next turn, the target cannot gain combat advantage against you for any reason and the target treats all squares within 3 squares of you as difficult terrain.

Alternatively,
... the target treats all squares within 3 squares of you as difficult terrain when moving towards you.

Again, I think that the area is just too big. You seem to like  really big areas, but they're very difficult to judge and balance  properly. Maybe as a close blast 3 or burst 1 I could see it.

Okay, so pare down the area.  As I've said, my minimum is three, so we can make it a Close Blast 3 (referencing the howling attacks that Barbarians get in Primal Power).  And maybe include a feat to expand the area or change it to a burst (similar to what Dragonborn get to do).

So if we take that as the working area of the power, which effect are you leaning towards (or which effect on a hit, if we make it an attack after all)?

[Edit]  About my preference for larger areas, remember that my whole entire purpose for advocating a second alternative power is so that Minotaurs have one that isn't range- or role-defined.  It's why I like Second Sight so much, because it works against adjacent opponents, against opponents hitting you at a Greatbow's extreme range (50 squares) and even against opponents using a "Ranged Sight" power, attacking you from that mountaintop peak WAAAY over there.

So yes, I'm pushing for a power effective at a decent range, if we don't use Second Sight.  At least 3 squares is fine, but of course I'd like it to be further away.

What if we made it a Close burst 5, affecting only one enemy in the burst at Heroic tier (with whichever effect we go towards), affecting two enemies at Paragon, and three enemies at Epic?

In light of the potential imbalance of multi-target at-wills and free attacks (i.e: White Lotus Master Riposte), perhaps Ferocity should be limited to powers that target a single creature, enemy, or ally (for warlords with commanding strike, it would appropriate to shout out a final command before falling unconscious)?

Jun 2, 2010 -- 5:56AM, Tectorman wrote:

So if we take that as the working area of the power, which effect are you leaning towards (or which effect on a hit, if we make it an attack after all)?

Tremor-sense, difficult terrain, and the denial of combat advantage are definitely still my favorite effects mentioned so far. What would you think of...:

     Resonating Stomp (Minotaur Racial Power)
     Encounter
     Minor Action - Personal
     Effect: You gain tremorsense 5 until the end of your next turn. Creatures within range of this tremorsense cannot gain combat advantage against you as long as you are not affected by any conditions or effects that would prevent you from taking immediate actions.

I added in "as long as you are not affected by any conditions or effects that would  prevent you from taking immediate actions" because it seems rather unbelieveable that this power would help a Minotaur to better defend itself while Dominated, Petrified, Stunned, Unconscious, etc.

About my preference for larger areas, remember that my whole entire purpose for advocating a second alternative power is so that Minotaurs have one that isn't range- or role-defined.  It's why I like Second Sight so much, because it works against adjacent opponents, against opponents hitting you at a Greatbow's extreme range (50 squares) and even against opponents using a "Ranged Sight" power, attacking you from that mountaintop peak WAAAY over there.

So yes, I'm pushing for a power effective at a decent range, if we don't use Second Sight.  At least 3 squares is fine, but of course I'd like it to be further away.

I understand that, but there's a big difference between range and area. A power with a range of 20 squares would be fine as long as it only had a single target, but a power with a close burst 5 that targets every enemy in the area is very likely overpowered (or must have a pitifully weak effect). That's why I keep wanting to lower your ranges. A close burst 5 that can only target a single creature is fine, sure, but a lot of the time these sorts of power don't make much sense only targeting one creature in their area.

Jun 8, 2010 -- 4:28AM, Mithrus wrote:

In light of the potential  imbalance of multi-target at-wills and free attacks (i.e: White Lotus  Master Riposte), perhaps Ferocity should be limited to powers that  target a single creature, enemy, or ally (for warlords with commanding  strike, it would appropriate to shout out a final command before falling  unconscious)?

I honestly don't think that White Lotus Master  Riposte is a problem here. Enemies rarely attack downed PCs, and even if  they were to, the PC wouldn't be able to take any immediate actions  anyways.

Maybe change it to "creatures that you can detect with this tremorsense" to avoid the problems of you not being able to tell anything new about that flying creature over there, but still being able to defend yourself better against it.  I mean, it could still work conceptually, in that you are simultaneously heightening all of your existing senses, which you are using to detect the flying creature, while also gaining tremorsense, which ends up being irrelevant to the flying creature.

Otherwise, I think I can finally lay this to rest.  Looks great.

Jun 8, 2010 -- 8:52PM, Crimson_Concerto wrote:

I honestly don't think that White Lotus Master  Riposte is a problem here. Enemies rarely attack downed PCs, and even if  they were to, the PC wouldn't be able to take any immediate actions  anyways.

Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. I meant allowing any at-will power for Ferocity would open up the option of using a multi-target at-will, similar to what WLMR does (that was all I intended by the comparison). For those classes with multi-attack at-wills, would this make Ferocity too strong (I'm not sure, but I figure I'd bring it up for discussion).

Also, perhaps Ferocity should be limited to level 1 unaugmented at-wills, since the psionic classes have more (and higher level) at-wills and the current description for Ferocity could allow the character to blow as many PPs s/he has left, making it equivalant to an encounter power.

I would strongly advise against prohibiting at-wills higher than level one. 

See augmenting classes almost always switch up so their at wills will quickly move beyond the level one range thus making the ability useless to augmenting characters past level 13.

Further more augmentable powers have built in limits on their power point expenditure, with the amount of points you can spend being one of 2 pre-set numbers. My advice would be to leave it alone since spending PP is how a psionic class gets encounter powers. Just call it an advantage of playing the augmentable classes. Just like how the D-born's d-breath power works so well with the fighter mark and punish system.

I agree that this needs to be clarified.  And seeing as how Ferocity is a racial feature tied to a character's At-Will attacks (like Humans and Half-Elves), I've got to lean on making it only work for the unaugmented version of an Augmentable power.  To cover the Psionic version of the Vicious Ferocity feat (which currently allows you to sub in an Encounter power), I'd either reword that feat or create another one to the same effect (preferably the former, unless you also put in a disclaimer saying that you can't take both Vicious Ferocity and (off the top of my head) Psychic Ferocity.

Calling it an advantage of playing an augmentable class just strikes me as a class-dependant free feat (which I would consider to be the same as a feat tax, just inverted).

There's a feat that allows Dragon born to mark with their breath weapons.

Does that mean D-born fighters shouldn't get to mark with their breath without taking that feat?

 

Jun 9, 2010 -- 5:59AM, Tectorman wrote:

I mean, it could still work conceptually, in that you are simultaneously heightening all of your existing senses, which you are using to detect the flying creature, while also gaining tremorsense, which ends up being irrelevant to the flying creature.

That's more what I was going for. I don't want for the power to be useless during encounters with flying enemies, after all.

Otherwise, I think I can finally lay this to rest.  Looks great.

YAY! ^_^

Jun 9, 2010 -- 12:23PM, Mithrus wrote:

I meant allowing any at-will power  for Ferocity would open up the option of using a multi-target at-will,  similar to what WLMR does (that was all I intended by the comparison).  For those classes with multi-attack at-wills, would this make Ferocity  too strong (I'm not sure, but I figure I'd bring it up for discussion).

I'm not sure that this is really a problem. After all, Minotaurs were already able to use at-will powers for Ferocity via a feat before this anyways, and there's never been any sort of outcry about it, so I don't think that I would go nearly so far as to put it on th level of WLMR. All that I did was to add this feature to the basic racial stat block instead of keeping it as a feat.



Now, as for this questions of what to do with Psionic classes, my initial instinct is to limit it to unaugmented at-will powers but not to limit it to level 1 powers. However, I think that rampant brings up some good points, so I'd be interested in hearing more...

An unaugmented Psionic At-Will power is the equivalent to another class's normal At-Will power.  An augmented Psionic At-Will power is the equivalent to another class's normal Encounter power.  It is pretty much entirely due to a technicality in the language that would allow a Minotaur Psionic to pump out an Encounter power where another Minotaur wouldn't. 

As of the OP, you're still hovering between Ferocity granting an At-Will power or just a Basic power.  I rather think this opens the gap up further (in a different way than the Dragonborn Fighter marking with DB for free where others require a feat).

In the case of a Minotaur psionic using an augmented power with ferocity there are points for and against.

For:
1. Simpler to allow
2. Gives some oomph to a set of classes many players won't associate with minotaurs
3. Given a situation where a PC/Important NPC is on their last legs and essentially getting off one last FU, it makes sense that it should be as potent a manuever as they can muster.
4. By the time a psionic class is down to its last HP it shouldn't have a ton of PP left to augment with either, remember some of those higher level versions can take 6-8 pp to use the full augment.
5. Even though Humans and half-elves were restricted to level 1 non-augmentable, that was because they were getting those powers added to their list, the Minotaur isn't getting extra Powers or PP just one extra potential chance to use ones it already has.

Against:
1. It does make the ferocity ability appreciably better for augment classes, than for others.
2. Augmentation is the method by which an augment class comps for having no encounter attack powers.

However using the example of the dragon born I find this insufficient reason to nix augmentation of ferocity.

The dragon born possesses an area attack as a minor action, allowing Dragonborn fighters to mark a whole bunch of extra targets at least once a fight. Just because a racial ability turns out to match really well with a class ability doesn't mean you need to nerf it. Otherwise There's be a rule that specifically says D-born racial attack powers don't trigger the fighter class's mark. 

I agree with the above rundown of points for and against; however, I feel that most of the points for are incidental and highly situational.
1. Agreed, but I don't think it matters enough to counter either 1 or 2 against.
2. This is entirely dependent on the players' view and what they associate with Minotaurs.  For that matter, it also depends on how closely players tie class to concept.  For instance, I consider the Psion class (the mechanics of the class, nevermind the fluff) as the same thing as the Wizard class, just with different abilities.
3. Minotaurs in classes with Encounter powers and not Augmentable At-Will powers want just as much to able to deliver one last potent FU before they drop.  What about them?
4. This is a guess.
5. But the potency of the one extra potential chance to use ones it already has is entirely dependant on which class they picked, some getting extra oomph for free.

However, as it turns out, the rules already cover this and it seems WotC had the same concerns I have.

An update from having read the PHB3 for the pertinent information:

According to the text of the Augmentable keyword, any time a power or other effect allows for the use of an At-Will power and you choose an At-Will with the Augmentable keyword, you may only use the unaugmented version.

This would seem to take care of the basic racial ability by itself, but there's still the question of what to do with Vicious Ferocity.  If we make a separate feat to allow Ferocity to allow an augmented Augmentable At-Will, then Minotaurs who are members of classes with only Encounter powers can just use Vicious Ferocity and Minotaurs who are members of classes with only Augmentable At-Wills can just use this new feat.

It breaks down when you have a Minotaur who has multiclassed or hybridized and has a combination of Augmentable At-Wills and Encounter powers.  Using two separate feats would require such a character to take both just to achieve the same options as a character who only needs one.

So I recommend rewriting Vicious Ferocity to where it is the single goto feat for all Minotaurs who want to pull this off.

Jun 15, 2010 -- 6:08AM, Tectorman wrote:

However, as it turns out, the rules already cover this and it seems WotC had the same concerns I have.

An update from having read the PHB3 for the pertinent information:

According to the text of the Augmentable keyword, any time a power or other effect allows for the use of an At-Will power and you choose an At-Will with the Augmentable keyword, you may only use the unaugmented version.

Well all right then, problem solved. ^_^

This would seem to take care of the basic racial ability by itself, but there's still the question of what to do with Vicious Ferocity.  If we make a separate feat to allow Ferocity to allow an augmented Augmentable At-Will, then Minotaurs who are members of classes with only Encounter powers can just use Vicious Ferocity and Minotaurs who are members of classes with only Augmentable At-Wills can just use this new feat.

It breaks down when you have a Minotaur who has multiclassed or hybridized and has a combination of Augmentable At-Wills and Encounter powers.  Using two separate feats would require such a character to take both just to achieve the same options as a character who only needs one.

So I recommend rewriting Vicious Ferocity to where it is the single goto feat for all Minotaurs who want to pull this off.

Actually, what surprises me is that the PHB3 doesn't already do for encounter powers what it does for at-will powers when it comes to Psionics. I would think, the same way they call out things that allow at-will powers as only allowing unaugmented at-will psionic powers, that they sould call out things that allow encounter powers as allowing augmented at-will psionic powers. If they did that, I wouldn't have to change a thing. In the mean time, however, I see no problem at all with allowing Vicious Ferocity to allow augmented at-will psionic powers in addition to encounter powers.

Jun 10, 2010 -- 12:43PM, rampant wrote:

There's a feat that allows Dragon born to mark with their breath weapons.

Does that mean D-born fighters shouldn't get to mark with their breath without taking that feat?

 

A Dragonborn can play more than just the Fighter class.

A Dragonborn Fighter should not take this feat, unless they are a hybrid Fighter|something else.

When a non-hybrid Fighter makes any attack, they can mark the target of that attack.  So, a Dragonborn Fighter making his or her breath attack can mark each target of that attack *whether or not the attack hits.*

A Dragonborn Warden, on the other hand, cannot normally mark with his or her breath attack and would want this feat if he or she wants to mark multiple targets with the breath attack.

My point was exactly that d-born fighters should never have to take the ffeat, that just because there existed a feat that allowed a cool trick didn't mean race/class combos that pulled something similar shouldn't be nerfed.

Although like the guy said they've already covered the issue. 

Limit the racial power to str, con, dex. The dragonborn did it and so should the minatour.

This is splendind work, if i'll be playing a minotaur, this is the version i'll be using.

May 26, 2011 -- 7:09AM, mhbjarkistef wrote:

Limit the racial power to str, con, dex. The dragonborn did it and so should the minatour.

This is splendind work, if i'll be playing a minotaur, this is the version i'll be using.

Saying this so Crimson need not worry about it...

That is a bad idea because it shoehorns the Minotaur into specific builds in a way not replicated by other races. 

For example, an Elf can play any kind of Wizard (primary stat INT, secondary stat DEX, CON, WIS, CHA, or (if he wants to MC a STR-using class) even STR, all while never interfering with how well his racial power works.

A Dragonborn, on the other hand, HAS to either play a Wizard (primary stat INT, secondary stat DEX, CON, or STR) to be able to use his racial power, or he can use the full options available to all the other wizards but forsake his racial power (since it will steadily become less and less accurate as the levels increase).

It's a bad idea for the Dragonborn (and the Genasi, the Tiefling, the Thri-Kreen, and any other races that share this bad racial design), and it's a bad idea for the Minotaur.  That's why I suggested Crimson change it to "primary ability modifier" in the first place.

Designer mistakes are to be learned from, not replicated.

Crimson_Concerto! Do you mind if I use your Gore racial power for my homebrew Goron race? I originally use a renamed Goring Charge for the Goron racial power, but this could make the race much better.

Oct 12, 2011 -- 11:33AM, WEBwarrior94 wrote:

Crimson_Concerto! Do you mind if I use your Gore racial power for my homebrew Goron race? I originally use a renamed Goring Charge for the Goron racial power, but this could make the race much better.

Go for it. =)

A huge improvement from the official minotaur entry. Well done!