Community

 
Jump Menu:
Post Reply
Page 1 of 2  •  1 2 Next
Let's talk about minions.
2 years ago  ::  Jun 07, 2008 - 12:26PM #1
Verenal
Posts: 30
Date Joined: 07/27/02
Now that I have 4e MM in my hands and have quickly read through it, I've noticed a few things I propably have to adjust in my games.

That's right, minions. The idea behind minions that I can see is that they allow lower level monsters to function in higer level encounters. The Ogre is a good example. Minions are at level 11 and 16, while basic ogres are level 8. This is how it should be. When the basic ogre shouldn't be much of a threat, I can use minions instead.

Some of them are too low level to be used reasonably. For example, cyclops have minions at 14th and 16th level, but other cyclopses are at least level 14 and highest level for them is 17. How can I justify throwing masses of weak cyclopses at my players at the same time they're facing basic cyclopses? If cyclops was a low level monster like a kobold or an orc I could understand this. Even low level monsters can have minions, but high level creatures should use lower level creatures as minions, not their own kind. The good thing here is, that cyclops seems to me the worst case of minion level being unexplainably low.

Other monsters that face this problem are:

- Abyssal Ghoul (Only hungerer, who is only two levels higher than its basic counterpart. I'll most likely drop "abyssal" from its name and it fits right where it should.)
- Sahuagin (although this is propably low enough level monster that it should have its own kind as minions.)
- Snaketongue cultists (although I might explain their suckiest minions by claiming they aren't actually warriors, but armed peasants.

Some monsters have a fine explanation why they have sucky minions, like skeletons and zombies. These minions can be explained away by being really old, frail and moldy undead.

Other examples include:
- Vampire spawn, who are supposed to be weaker than their master.
- Aboleths also have lower level minions, but they have a good explanation for this.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 07, 2008 - 7:31PM #2
Fenrir423
Posts: 63
Date Joined: 08/24/07
I think you are misinterpreting the term minion. They aren't so much a way to use lower level monsters at higher levels as to use level appropriate monsters (damage and defense wise) without having too many brick walls. Say you want to have a battle against an army of demons (I use the term army lightly, maybe a group of 10). If each of them take 3-5 hits to take down, the battle is going to take forever and it will eventually get boring. With minions, you have disposable enemies that pose a threat, but can be taken down easily.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 07, 2008 - 8:35PM #3
Kazeer
Posts: 40
Date Joined: 05/28/08
I foresee a lot of people having trouble to fit minions into their "the way the game has to be".

You don't have to "justify" anything.
Players come across a group of, say 8 cyclops. Three of them looks stronger, while the five others look weak, and, as the players soon realize, go down in one hit.
There, you have a balanced encounter that makes for a nice change of pace, instead of just 4 cyclops that each take much longer to kill.

You should just see them as a tool to make an encounter different and enjoyable; 5 minions of one level are pretty much equivalent to one regular monster of same level. Same way one elite monster is about as strong as 2 reg monsters of same level, and solo is 5 times as strong. This allows us to build many encounters of the same diffculty level, but that are each different from one another.

In short, don't pull your hair out trying to justify strong monsters dying in one hit, it's no use.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 07, 2008 - 8:50PM #4
sirkaikillah
Posts: 1,573
Date Joined: 08/22/07
What I've noticed is that it is easy for Pcs to confuse who is just a minion and who is not. I like that!!! But I'm an evil DM.

There are all kinds of new concepts like minions that people are going to have to learn how to use correctly and accept into game play. I find it so exciting.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 07, 2008 - 8:54PM #5
MrMyth
Posts: 837
Date Joined: 08/17/07
The heroes drop out of the portal and into the Demonweb Pits, and can immediately see a swarm of abyssal ghouls that come scrambling towards them across the silken strands, led by several pack leaders that drive them onwards...

Stumbling out from the wreckage of their ship, the heroes find themselves on the Isle of the Cyclops - and are quickly surrounded by a mob of the natives. The brutes are pushed aside as the chieftain and his bodyguards make their way through the crowd towards the intruders...

There are plenty of reasons why you could be encountering weaker versions of creatures at the same time you encounter most of the normal variety. And remember that monsters are pretty easy to scale - if the PCs were in a situation to be fighting these 'cyclops chumps' earlier, they could have actually been facing Cyclops Ramblers scaled down to level 9.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 07, 2008 - 10:40PM #6
Randallw
Posts: 18
Date Joined: 09/07/04
As a DM I think minions are a wonderful idea. I was struck when I started reading the rules how simpler they were but I soon realised it's better. We're meant to be making a story and the idea of a group of foes that can be quickly defeated but which gives you the feeling that you are facing a lot of enemies is great. The one thing I found difficult with combat before was it took so damn long to have lots of enemies. You could spend hours fighting the henchmen and then finally get to the main villain. Now you could quickly deal with his minions and then face down the major threat. It makes for a much better story, and it's stronger than having a dozen useless lvl 1 skeletons before you face the lvl 20 Lich.

The Hero breaks into the room. half a dozen henchmen run at him. He cuts them down quickly, then turns to face the big boss, and his bodyguard.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 08, 2008 - 1:55AM #7
sigil_beguiler
Posts: 3,611
Date Joined: 04/14/07
For me minions can represent a couple different things. Some represent a weaker breed of a race, some represent the power of the players when at high levels.

But the most common way of representing minions in my games, are as the "unlucky ones" in combat.

Lets take two orcs, both the same level with the same abilities. One is a minion however, what does this mean. Well the minion is the one who is going to be beheaded in a single blow, or slips in the mud and gets impaled on a spear, or misjudges a jump and becomes a bloody pulp on the rocks below.

The normal orc is the one who blocks the blow, or manages to avoid a killing hit, who doesn't slip in the mud and who manages to jump correctly and land in the water.

Essentially the minion is a way to create a certain narrative and cinematic flow to battles.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 08, 2008 - 3:04AM #8
Randallw
Posts: 18
Date Joined: 09/07/04
It would keep things interesting. The hero faces off with 2 foes who for all intents look similar. He cuts down one, turns to the other expecting it to be as easy, but his foe parries and gives a wicked grin.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 08, 2008 - 7:44AM #9
Verenal
Posts: 30
Date Joined: 07/27/02
If minions are unlucky ones, the enemies are really unlucky. If minions are used like they are in encounter groups, the comparison sigil_beguiler and Randallw make means four unlucky orcs and one lucky orc, and the rest of encounter's monsters who might or might not be similar to the five orcs. This might make the enemy seem incompetent instead of being unlucky. In my experience, incompetent enemies aren't fun to fight against.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 08, 2008 - 11:39AM #10
sigil_beguiler
Posts: 3,611
Date Joined: 04/14/07
They aren't really incompetent, since incompetent would have to mean that they are bad at blocking blows or dealing blows entirely. It is simply, you the DM and the players by killing the minions drive a narrative in that combat sequence.

So while the orc can certainly block blows and deal out lots of damage, when he does get hit. This is when narrative nature of combat kicks in and the orc gets beheaded in one hit, or has his legs severed, etc.

So it is not that their incompetent, it is that they have been singled out for a specific purpose in the narrative of the combat.
Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 1 of 2  •  1 2 Next
Post Reply
Jump Menu:
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing